Foreign Affairs Committee
Debate between Gavin Shuker and Alec Shelbrooke
Alec Shelbrooke
I totally agree although, as a West Ham fan, it is difficult to spot the analogy. It is about talent, but it is also about the cumulative knowledge of so many years’ experience and the contacts around the world that make someone the go-to person on specific issues after the meetings of these organisations. It all feeds in.
Mr Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Ind)
The hon. Gentleman is incredibly kind to give way on that point. He was first elected in the same year I was, and we both aspire to the level and depth of experience of the two Members whom the motion seeks to discharge from the Committee. Is not his key point that the incentives in this place to speak out bravely when we believe things to be wrong need to be correctly aligned with our procedures? Both Members have found themselves in a position where they could do nothing but speak out and face the consequences. Today each of us, even those with the political experience of the hon. Gentleman and me, need to ask ourselves: if it is these two Members first, will it be us next?
Alec Shelbrooke
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will preface it, but he reminds me of the poem about the holocaust that finishes:
“Then they came for me—and there was no one left”.
We should bear that in mind. What has led to this situation? I regard the hon. Member for Ilford South as a good friend, and we have travelled the world together. I saw the huge, incredible levels of abuse he received, often from his alleged supporters in his own party. I think he dealt with that stoically.
I know that it was no easy decision for the hon. Gentleman to leave his party. I do not want to embarrass him, but I know it broke his heart because we have had those conversations. He did not want to leave the Labour party. He was forced into that position by standing up for what was right and standing up for the values we should all stand for in this House. That is the problem with the motion.
What message are we sending to the House with this motion? The motion asks us to replace two Members of this House who have enormous experience. The context is a lack of tolerance in this place. The Brexit debate was framed around the fact that people wanted politics done in a different way—we can argue and disagree about what that way is. What we are actually saying today is, “Stand up for your principles and you’re out.” It is an establishment stitch-up.
The reason why I want the two hon. Gentlemen to stay on the Committee—this is what I worry about most of all—is that they are experts in their field. They are admired by the other Committee members and by the people they see around the world. We should not give in to the pressure and, frankly, intolerance they have had to face, and thereby lessen the capability of the Committee they sit on.
Water Industry
Debate between Gavin Shuker and Alec Shelbrooke(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Gavin Shuker
No, that is not the case. The Flood and Water Management Act 2010 created the legislative framework for that measure.
I want to talk about some of the measures that have been trumpeted as the solution to bring about water affordability and to stop the rising tide of householders who are finding themselves in water poverty or unable to pay their water bills. The approach of the Water Bill is entirely the wrong way around. It is interesting to hear Government Members say that the only answer is greater competition. I accept that retail business competition could be a good way of reducing water usage. That has made a profound difference north of the border. That is why we have supported it continually. The idea came out of the Cave review.
However, at a time when many parts of the UK are much more water-scarce than other parts of the continent and even parts of Africa, it is short-sighted to think that that idea will work without considering abstraction reform as well. The Government have chosen to punt that issue into the 2020s—until 2025—for the next Government to look at. If we do not deal with scarcity in many parts of the country, there will be a major problem. Instead, the Government have looked for a number of measures that will shake up the industry and make them look pro-reform, but that will not necessarily tackle the issue of abstraction.
There is an idea that the only answer to the problem of some parts of the country being water-rich and others water-poor is to build pipelines. I remind the House that 2% of the country’s energy usage already goes on water. There is a major carbon cost to that idea. If people do not believe that that would end up on people’s bills, they are wrong.
Alec Shelbrooke
Just to clarify, did the hon. Gentleman say that we need a national water grid to move water around or that we do not?
Gavin Shuker
I am happy to clarify that. I was saying that the idea of a national water grid is stillborn, purely on the basis that the carbon costs make it too difficult. If we accept the premise for that idea, surely what we need is a similar level of investment in water efficiency. We must have a similar amount of foresight on how we will get by with less in the many water-stressed areas. The south-east continues to grow and water is becoming more scarce.
Unless there is proper leadership on that issue, things will become very difficult. Big concrete, in-the-ground solutions are not the right approach. There is a need for additional water capacity, but we need to consider the issues. I say humbly that the Government have a green deal, but where is the blue deal? Where is the deep thinking about what we need to do?
Another area where the Government have been caught napping is the structure of the industry. After privatisation, a number of companies emerged that were listed on the UK stock market. There was then a shift in the industry towards foreign ownership. Today, the majority of the industry is owned by private equity firms. At the same time, dividends and water bills have continued to rise. Unison has done some fantastic research that has tracked the nature of the industry. However, it is not just Unison that has raised concerns. Jonson Cox, the chair of Ofwat, has said that there needs to be greater clarity in many of the difficult accounting explanations. I hope that Ofwat will continue to pursue that issue.
One issue on which the Government could take action is Eurobonds, and the practice whereby water companies effectively borrow from arm’s length bodies of themselves at greater levels of interest, which is obviously favourable on their balance sheet. The Government consulted on that issue and decided to do nothing, yet it is a major reason why the water industry is skewed the way it is. If we want to drill down and ensure that the benefit of the reforms goes not only to shareholders but to customers and households, the Government must consider that issue again.
Finally, I want to mention social responsibility for water companies. In January 2012 I went to a fantastic research facility at the university of Leeds called Water at Leeds. I gave a speech in which I laid out Labour’s response to the water White Paper and the forthcoming legislation. I also talked about the consensus that exists on water. Both parties in government, the industry and customers have bought into the idea of a largely monopolised, yet privately owned, privately run and privately debt-financed water industry, but that consensus could break down if action is not taken.
Today, 72% of people believe that water would be better off nationalised. That is a massive flashing red light to the water industry that it needs to take action, and to the Government if they believe that that should not be the policy that passes through. I believe one way of doing that would be to have a social responsibility clause in the Water Bill that lays out clearly and benchmarks what each water company is doing in terms of social responsibility. That would include the companies saying how they manage their tax affairs in a way that is easy to understand and has clarity, rather than things being hidden away on the balance sheet. They would also mention their responsibility to their broader constituencies, and whether they employ apprentices and are investing in R and D, as Cave mentioned in his report. Let us look at the water companies and instead of saying that some have a good story to tell, let us try to raise them all up to the level of the very best.
Those five areas—bad debt, social tariff, abstraction reform, Eurobonds and social responsibility—would in themselves create a coherent basis for tackling water affordability and water scarcity. I humbly remind the House that despite all the hype of today and what the Minister may say, this Government have looked those challenges squarely in the eye and dodged each one.