Housing Benefit

Glenda Jackson Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

On behalf of the Work and Pensions Committee, it is a pleasure to open the first debate that we have held in Westminster Hall. We have published two full reports up to this point in time. One is “Youth Unemployment and the Future Jobs Fund” and the other is the report that we are discussing today, “Changes to Housing Benefit announced in the June 2010 Budget”.

We had hoped that the Government response would have been with us a bit earlier, but it arrived a bit close to the wire. We were able to agree it in our Committee meeting yesterday morning, just after we had grilled the Minister, who is here today, on his pensions policy and thrown him out. The members of the Committee now have copies of the Government response. Obviously, part of the reason for the debate today is to discuss the report in general and the Government response.

I will give a bit of history about the genesis of the report that we are debating today. We decided that it was important to produce the report after the announcement about housing benefit in the Budget last June. However, as soon as we announced the inquiry and published our terms of reference, the debate about housing benefit and local housing allowance moved on. So this report is quite narrow, in that it looks almost exclusively at the LHA and the situation in the private rented sector. That is because at the time that the report was produced, it had not been recognised that there might be implications for the public rented sector, and particularly for local councils, due to the changes to housing benefit. That became clearer as we carried out our inquiry, but by that time we were already tied in to the terms of reference that we had sought evidence on, and we were not in a position to change those terms of reference. However, I am fairly sure that the debate about housing benefit and the LHA will continue, and hopefully this afternoon we can tease out some of the additional issues that we were unable to cover in the report.

We need to begin with the items in the Government response that we welcome. We made a number of recommendations in our report about the need for robust data and robust independent research. That was because when we took evidence, we found that charities working in the homeless sector often said that the changes to housing benefit would lead to mass homelessness and were unlikely to lead to private landlords reducing their rent, whereas the Government said, “No, they won’t. There might be a bit of homelessness, but not really that much, and yes, the whole point of this policy is to force private landlords to reduce their rent.” Until the policy is in place and has been working, it is impossible to test which of those two diametrically opposed views is the right one. That is why we are pleased that the Government have recognised the need for good, solid, independent research, because that will be the only way in which we can tell whether the policy has had the intended consequences and ensure that it does what it says on the tin.

I do not know whether this was a success for our Select Committee, but many people were delighted that the Government decided to drop the 10% sanction on housing benefit for people who have been on jobseeker’s allowance for more than a year. That proposal caused a huge amount of angst among a large number of the people from whom we took evidence, and the issue was raised on the Floor of the House and in debates in Westminster Hall. It seemed grossly unfair, and it certainly would not have done what the Government alleged it would do, which was to act as a work incentive—if anything, it would have acted as a work disincentive.

That proposal woke up the public rented sector—particularly the housing associations—to the full implications of some of the proposals that the Government were coming up with, because a large number of housing association residents are on JSA. The housing associations faced the prospect of losing 10% of their income at a stroke as their residents were sanctioned. The residents might have done everything that the Government asked them but have been unable to get a job, because the labour market in their area was such that they could not find one, yet they would still lose 10% of their housing benefit. It seemed strange to us that housing benefit would be sanctioned for actions in relation to a completely different benefit. I am pleased that the Government have seen fit to drop that proposal, which is incredibly important.

Much of the debate about housing benefit has focused on the caps or on the situation in London, which has helped to obscure what could happen elsewhere in the country, and some of the knock-on effects for the public rented sector. That was because it was much easier for the tabloid newspapers to latch on to stories about “£1,000-a-week housing benefit claims”, when in fact such claims were a small minority of all claims. It is often the case that it is not good practice to introduce policy based on the few rogue examples rather than on the position that most people find themselves in.

Despite that, and despite the fact that the LHA was increasing and in general covered rents, there were already shortfalls for some residents. Many claimants were already making up the shortfall between what they qualified for with regard to what they could get in the broad rental market area and what their actual rent was. As part of our inquiry, we visited a citizens advice bureau where we met an elderly gentleman who was already having to supplement his housing benefit to the tune of about 10% of his very limited pension. He was a prime example of someone who had found it very difficult to get a tenancy in the private rented sector, because as soon as landlords heard that he was on housing benefit they turned him away. “Lying” might not be quite the right word to use, but he “failed to inform” his landlord that he was actually an LHA recipient when he signed the lease on the accommodation that he was in at that time. He knows that he probably would not have been able to get that lease if he had told his landlord that he was an LHA recipient.

That is one likely problem with the Government’s approach. The assumption is that people will be able to move and that they will be able to find accommodation within the bands that they can claim for, but that is not necessarily the case. Although the Government response says that landlords will reduce rents in many areas, it is definitely the case that in large numbers of areas—my area, for example—demand already outstrips supply, and landlords will quite easily be able to get tenants who are not dependent on housing benefit to live in their properties. Therefore, the choices of those who are dependent on housing benefit will be squeezed and become ever narrower. They do not have the choice to go into the public rented sector, because there is already a shortage of supply there.

The Government’s response is a bit complacent in saying that landlords will reduce their rents. Even if they do so in one or two areas, I suspect that in the majority of the UK they will not, and it will be very difficult for people to find anything to rent. In places where there is very little choice anyway, such as rural areas, choice will be further narrowed, and it might be impossible for people who are on housing benefit or local housing allowance to get anything with a rental price anywhere near what they can claim in benefit.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

I have received a briefing from the Residential Landlords Association on that precise point. It says that in relation to a survey it conducted:

“71% of respondents said that they would not decrease their rents. A recent study for the British Property Federation put this figure at 88%. Although the Government’s whole case is based on the assumption that this will happen our survey evidence (along with that carried out by the Local Government Association in London) contradicts this.”

[Dame Anne Begg]

That is why it is important that the research is carried out. In his evidence to the Committee, the Minister, the noble Lord Freud, said:

“They would say that, wouldn’t they?”

It is not until the proposal is market-tested that we will know whether what we are talking about will be the case.

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[Dame Anne Begg]

That is the problem. As well as the discretionary element, council tax benefit will be devolved to local authorities, although only 90% of it, and that as well will be discretionary to the local authority. The discretionary element must cover not only older people but disabled people, young people, large families and multi-generational families, perhaps from ethnic minorities, yet it will be up to the local authority to decide who receives it. I suspect that most local authorities will have a pecking order of groups that they think are worthy of support, leaving the groups that they do not think are worthy of support at the bottom of the heap.

[Glenda Jackson]

There is another dimension to the problem that my local authority has raised with me. This is a period in which local authorities are strapped for cash and reducing staff, yet the changes will place greater burdens on them, which might extend the length of time required to make the discretionary decisions, making the people waiting for those decisions even more anxious and concerned.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Governments and local authorities are often accused of making people suffer a postcode lottery. The fact that yet another matter will be open to the discretion of local authorities with tight budgets could create a strong postcode lottery dependent on area, not just in different parts of the country but in neighbouring areas. That will lead to uncertainty among claimants, who will not know when they sign a lease whether they will receive discretionary housing payment or not. There will be new claimants, and those sitting in houses in the hope of receiving discretionary housing benefit might have months of worry—perhaps will have even started to look for other housing—before knowing whether they will be covered by their council’s discretion and receive the money.

I suspect that in many areas, because the money will not go far enough, the discretionary housing payment might cover some but not all of the gap between people’s rent and their housing benefit and local housing allowance, so the anxiety about whether they will have to move will continue even after they are awarded the discretionary housing payment.

The other panaceas that the Government seem to think will solve a lot are the nine months’ transitional protection, which was mentioned only four times in their response rather than 20, and the independent review, which is mentioned throughout the document, although I did not count how many times. Phrases such as “the independent review will be comprehensive” and “it will cover” crop up throughout the report, as though we will have to wait for the review before some of the questions are answered. That is particularly worrying.

Another issue that we considered was the shared room rate, which the Government say in their response will be renamed the shared accommodation rate. It is meant for younger people, who are expected not necessarily to have single tenancy of a complete property but to share with others. It is proposed to raise the age limit for the shared accommodation rate from 25 to 35.

I am not sure that the Government have thought through the implications. I held a housing summit in Aberdeen to which a lot of people from the public rented sector came along, particularly from housing associations, and they were greatly exercised. Do the Government know how many houses in multiple occupation exist? Is there enough accommodation for that group of people? In my area, there are virtually no HMOs, because it is quite complicated and bureaucratic to register as one. A number of people who fall into the category will not be able to access a room in shared accommodation. Have the Government considered changing the rules to make it easier to share? It is illegal for tenants on housing benefit to sub-let, and there are all sorts of other barriers in the rules that make it difficult for people on housing benefit to share housing.

Have the Government considered the divorced or separated dad who is 34 years old and has access to his children at the weekend? What will it mean to bring children into a house in which other people live? Have the Government considered the child protection issues involved? Will the single room rate apply to the divorced father under 35 who looks after his children one or two nights a week?

What research have the Government done to ensure that accommodation for that group exists at all? In some rural areas, there are no HMOs. Will young people all be expected to flock into cities and more populated areas if the accommodation for which they qualify does not exist in their area?

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[Dame Anne Begg]

Indeed. I know from the homelessness legislation that that problem already exists. Lots of young pregnant women come to my constituency surgery who are living in mum’s spare bedroom or on her couch, but the homeless section will not see or deal with them until the day the baby is born. Usually the homeless section is sympathetic and will try to find them somewhere, but I suspect that that might happen only in Aberdeen, where there is not as much pressure on the social rented sector as in London. Such young women are often in a state of anxiety because they do not know what they will be taking their baby home to. They worry that it might be a damp room in a shared house somewhere.

[Glenda Jackson]

My hon. Friend lays her finger precisely on a constituency case that I had. The mother involved gave birth to her baby in the local hospital, the baby was ill and my constituent’s medical team would not allow her to take the baby back to where she had come from, as it was overcrowded, seriously damp and totally unsuited to a sick child. As a result, additional costs were laid on the national health service due to the complete unacceptability of her living arrangements at the time.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I suspect that most hon. Members will have similar examples in their constituency.

The Government’s response lists the various groups to which the shared accommodation rate—I have got so used to calling it the single room rate that I am finding it difficult to change—will not apply, but it is not clear how all the housing benefit changes will affect those living in supported accommodation, especially those who receive a mixture of Supporting People money and housing benefits, which is often a complex package of benefits, to allow them to live with support in their own home or shared accommodation. Will the Minister say a bit more about that?

Our report also considered work incentives, which were the main rationale for the Government’s changes—well, I suppose that the main rationale was to save on the housing benefit budget, but the second was to improve work incentives to ensure that work always pays.

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[Glenda Jackson]

On that very point, I have a briefing from the National Housing Federation, which states:

“There is a very limited supply of one bed properties into which people will be able to move. In 2009, just 38,700 one bed housing association properties were let to people of all ages in England. By contrast, the DWP’s impact assessment identifies 240,000 households who fit the size criteria…Most of these people will see a cut in their benefit with no prospect of being able to move to a smaller social home.”

[Dame Anne Begg]

That gives some of the figures. The problem is the mismatch between what people will now get housing benefit for and the actual housing supply. We also have to remember that housing associations and councils are no longer building houses. In fact, the housing summit that I hosted made it clear that housing associations, in particular, are afraid that they might not be in a position to build any more new houses. At the moment, banks regard them as a fairly low investment risk, because they know that housing associations will be paid housing benefit directly for residents who are on it. Under the move to universal credit, housing benefit will no longer be paid directly to the landlord, which will undermine housing associations’ ability to borrow, because they will no longer be seen as low risk.

Alternatively, housing associations might have a large number of tenants in properties that are over-occupied, so they will see a shortfall in housing benefit. On a number of different fronts, therefore, housing associations could see arrears build up, because people can no longer afford rents as a result of the changes to housing benefit. If housing associations are then seen as no longer being a safe investment bet, they will not be in a position to build the new houses that are required. Some housing associations have gone down the route of shared equity and all sorts of other things, but all that is under threat because of the housing benefit changes. That was outwith the scope of the Committee’s report, but it certainly needs to be considered, and I hope that we will return to it at some time in the future.

I know that I have not covered everything and that I have covered only bits and pieces, but I have talked for a long time, so I hope that hon. Members will have a flavour of some of the issues. Yes, we welcome some of the things the Government have said, but we are generally quite disappointed by their response and by their view that £190 million of discretionary housing benefit will somehow magic away a lot of the problems resulting from the changes. I hope that the Government are listening and that the Minister can answer at least some of our questions—if he cannot do so, I am sure that he can write to us.

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[Caroline Lucas]

A tiny number of high-profile cases have completely distorted the whole debate. Yes, there will be a few cases that cannot be justified, but I do not think that they should be allowed to dictate a policy that will be so punitive towards the poorest and most vulnerable.

[Glenda Jackson]

On precisely that point, I, too, was somewhat disturbed by the Prime Minister’s absolute adumbration that such cases were the norm for people who claim housing benefit, so I tabled questions. We are talking about precisely 90 families, who are all in central London. They are all large families, usually from ethnic minority communities, who have come to this country because we offered them asylum.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am enormously grateful for that information, which clearly sets out what we are dealing with. We are not dealing with the manufactured scenario in which hard-working families support the housing costs of huge numbers of workshy people who are wasting taxpayers’ money, which is the story being put about. The evidence given to the Committee shows plainly that that approach is inaccurate and irresponsible.

Let us remember that only one in eight of all housing benefit claimants is formally classified as unemployed. The rest include people on low incomes, pensioners, carers, and people with disabilities who are unable to work. We must challenge the myth of the workshy.

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[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who chairs the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, and other hon. Members who have contributed to the debate this afternoon.

I must say to the Minister that the Government response to the Select Committee report adds insult to injury. The insult was the Government’s failure to give the House their response to the report earlier than this morning. Committee members were in a privileged position: we got our less-than-glossy copies yesterday morning, I believe at about 9.25. What was injurious was that the Government seemed not to have read the report.

I freely expect the Government not to listen to anything that the Opposition have to say about proposals, but I am stunned that they ignore what a Select Committee puts before them, given that the Committee’s findings are based not on our own experience as constituency MPs, but on a great deal of informed experience and evidence given to us by organisations whose only reason for being is attempting to prevent people becoming homeless or dependent on housing benefit. I have with me about a third of the briefings that I—in common with every other Member of the House, presumably—have received from such organisations. Almost without exception, the recurring theme coming through from such reports is the failure of the Government to listen to what they are being told or to take on board the dangers inherent in their housing benefit policy for the most vulnerable in our society.

We can all quote chapter and verse from our own constituencies about what the danger and damage will be. The hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) spoke of the Government’s policies being London-centric. Would that they were, because it seems to me that the Government totally ignore any of the individual situations that can be found up and down the country, that people are in and will remain in, even though they are in work. Many of the most low-paid in this country are utterly dependent on housing benefit, and they are certainly not pulling in rents that would keep in fine fettle a house worth more than £1 million.

The contribution of London Councils stated:

“Housing costs are over 50% higher than the national average…child care costs are around 25% higher than the national average…Transport in London costs on average £10 per week more…than…in other metropolitan areas.”

We are told that the whole thrust behind the Government’s policy is not simply to cut money out of housing benefit or to fill up that big black hole of national debt, but to encourage people to get back into work. However, according to London Councils:

“Added to this, Londoners face extra difficulties in moving into employment, with greater competition for entry level jobs. Many of these entry level jobs do not include a London weighting to reflect the higher in-work costs in the capital…The impact on jobseekers in London has been highlighted in research carried out by Reed in Partnership”—

presumably more evidence the Government know nothing about—

“where the move into work costs on average £639.40 over the first month (including childcare), over £150.00 more than for the rest of the UK.”

Other briefings also pointed out a genuine and well-based fear that the Government’s proposals will inevitably lead to greater levels of homelessness, which would mean a greater need for local authorities to house, unless the Government propose removing the statutory obligation on them to put a roof over a child’s head. Anything is possible with this Government—they might be intending that, but they have not said it yet. However, if the statutory requirement remains, local authorities will have to house children.

Without any question, every single piece of evidence presented to us shows that the people who will be most affected by the Government’s proposals are the most vulnerable. Such people tend to be single parents with children, or families on very low pay with children. We are looking at a situation in which we might go back to the dreadful days, which I remember well, when families were existing—certainly not living—in ghastly bed-and-breakfast hostels.

Crisis, in its briefing to the Select Committee, said that at the moment the cost of a room in a bed-and-breakfast hostel could be £60 a day. How will the Government save money if that is indeed the future for many families, not only in London but throughout the country, if the proposals go through without any consideration?

As my hon. Friend commented on the Government response to the arguments put forward, not exclusively by the Select Committee, we are not inventing these things, which come not only from direct constituency experience, but from organisations that are expert in the field. They say, for example, that if people with a disabled child need an extra room, or space for a wheelchair or a dialysis machine, the Government’s response is, “Oh well, we can’t be expected to meet the requirements of every single individual in this country.” Why? I thought that one of the first responsibilities of Government is to protect the citizens of this country. Surely protecting children, the disabled and the elderly is a vital part of any Government’s job.

In their response to the Select Committee’s report, the Government have failed markedly. There is lack of attention to detail. As most hon. Members who have spoken have said, the Government apparently believe that the additional £190 million that they have managed to find will cover all the additional costs on local authorities, for people who cannot meet their rents, and that that will be the panacea and remove everyone’s problems. We all know that that is ridiculous, because it will not. There will be a nine-month transition. Really! Nine months’ transition will do nothing except exacerbate the justifiable anxieties of people who know that they are being threatened and may have to move home.

When the noble Lord Freud gave evidence to the Select Committee, he was very sanguine about people who may have to move from central London boroughs to outer London boroughs. He could not give any fine detail of what properties could be affordable and available in outer London boroughs. He rested his contribution on the statement that there is a 40% churn annually of people moving house. He could not tell us what sort of families that 40% churn represented, and I think it highly unlikely that it included people with disabilities. I am pretty sure that it did not include families with children, because the monstrous aspect of the Government’s proposals is not only that people will lose their homes—they will—but that children will lose their place in school. They will then have to try to find another place in another school. The evidence from Lord Freud’s officials on school place vacancies bore no relationship to any figures that I have heard. There are two London boroughs in my constituency, and a desperate shortage of school places not only in junior schools, but in secondary schools. Yet according to the Government, the rest of London is awash with empty school places. I would be interested to know where they are, as would many of my constituents.

Another issue that Lord Freud completely discounted in his evidence about people having to be moved from central London boroughs to outer London boroughs was of people having to look for work. Again, he was remarkably sanguine about the cost of travelling. I had three constituency cases only this morning. In one of those, parents with three children aged nine to three are forced to live with their in-laws: six adults and three children are living in a four-bedroom house. The house is owned by the in-laws, but it is extremely difficult for the local authority to find anywhere for that unit with three children to live other than in the private sector.

Despite the Government’s pronouncement that landlords will be only too happy to lower their rents when housing benefit goes down, there is a marked reluctance on the part of private landlords to accept tenants who receive housing benefit. In my constituency, almost without exception, there is a gap between what landlords charge and what housing benefit pays. That gap will only increase because of the Government’s proposals.

Another issue that I find bemusing is the Government’s argument that the proposal is not just about saving money, but is a real plus and an incentive for people to find work. The majority of people I know who are on housing benefit in my constituency, setting aside the fact that they may be disabled, work. They are in low- paid work, but they are expected to move somewhere else to find jobs, so central London will be bereft of all those jobs on which higher earners are dependent to be able to do their jobs. Quite how that will be a big plus in revitalising our economy is beyond my comprehension.

I have always had a rule, Mr Sheridan, that if one cannot say what one needs to say in 10 minutes or less, one should not rise to one’s feet. As I am in grave danger of breaking my own rule, I had better draw my comments to a conclusion.

When the evidence in a Select Committee report is so irrefutable and it is of such importance to so many individuals and families that the Government get it right, it is absolutely scandalous that the Government response should be so flabby and patronising. The Government patted the Select Committee on the head, but they examined none of the real issues. Given the huge wider changes that they are introducing throughout the welfare benefits system, it is to be hoped that they will begin to do a little more research and take seriously the evidence that is out there.

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[Ms Buck]

rose—

[Glenda Jackson]

rose—

[Steve Webb]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Westminster North in a second. One of the reasons why deficit reduction is so vital is that so many items of spending have become too large. Some of the concessions that we have talked about would be £100 million here or £500 million there. Very soon they add up to serious money.

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[Dame Anne Begg]

rose—

[Glenda Jackson]

rose—

[Steve Webb]

I will give way in a moment. Landlords are quite clear that that is hugely attractive to them. It is worth shaving the rent for, and that is often all that it would take.

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[Steve Webb]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for setting that context. During the course of this debate, one or two hon. Members have said that this is all about chasing the headlines in the red tops—the tabloids—and it is that that is shaping policy. Clearly, this is not a policy about a small number of extreme cases. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn says there are about 90 cases, but let me give one example. The top 5,000 cases of people to whom we pay housing benefit cost us £100 million a year. For 5,000 people to live in properties—

[Glenda Jackson]

It is not 5,000 people; it is 5,000 families.

[Steve Webb]

The hon. Lady can have 5,000 families, but she is, I think, losing sight of zeros. For someone in the Department for Work and Pensions, £100 million does not seem such a big figure, but it is a colossal amount of money that is not providing value for the hard-pressed, low-paid taxpayer, who often does not live in brilliant accommodation. It is not a good use of £100 million.

[Steve Webb]

As the hon. Lady knows, a lot depends on who takes those tenancies. If they are people who would have been in lower-rent social tenancies, the housing benefit costs will be higher, but if they are people who would have been renting in the free-market private sector, the costs could end up being lower. The numbers that she quotes are spurious.

[Glenda Jackson]

I want to know the Minister’s evidence for believing that landlords in the private rented sector will lower their rents. That certainly was not the finding of the National Landlords Association, which I mentioned earlier in the debate. Surely it is dependent on whether there is an excessive amount of empty properties, which, in a constituency such as mine, or any in central London, is an absurd premise. For all the properties concerned, there are many more people who are willing to take them on.

[Steve Webb]

I have a number of observations to make. First, the hon. Lady cited “evidence” that was not evidence at all, of course. It was a survey of the people who stand to lose from the policy, who mysteriously wanted to undermine the policy. When we talk to landlords’ groups—as we do—it is absolutely clear that direct payment is a prize for them. I hope that she does not argue with that statement. It is self-evident, blindingly obvious and common sense.

[Glenda Jackson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Steve Webb]

Can I just respond to the hon. Lady’s points before giving way to her again? [Interruption.]

[Steve Webb]

I hope that I can just respond to the points that the hon. Lady has made.

[Glenda Jackson]

I did not make that point.

[Steve Webb]

Landlords clearly value direct payment. There is no doubt about that. It is common sense and stands to reason. I do not know if the hon. Lady accepts things that stand to reason, but it is patently obvious that landlords value direct payment. There is an economic value to direct payment. It offers certainty as opposed to uncertainty. That can translate into lower rent. If landlords have a choice between the rent that they previously charged with uncertainty about whether they get the money, and a slightly lower rent with certainty of getting the money, landlords will go for certainty every time. That is common sense.

[Glenda Jackson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Steve Webb]

In a moment. The hon. Lady also said, “Where are all these properties? There is this massive, pent-up demand and these landlords will just go somewhere else.” If there is that massive, pent-up demand, why have landlords not already gone somewhere else? Why have they not already increased their rents beyond what housing benefit covers today? Why are they not already renting to non-housing benefit tenants? There is a reason why they rent to housing benefit tenants: they get the money, particularly with direct payments.

[Glenda Jackson]

Oh, I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. The words “direct payment” never passed my lips and as I said in an earlier intervention, I would be grateful if the Minister could try to answer the questions that I put to him. Then there is the issue of why landlords are not renting to others outside the housing benefit sector. As I have pointed out, there is a growing trend that private landlords will not accept tenants whose rent is paid by housing benefit. In my constituency and contiguous constituencies, I do not see a massive increase in signs showing places to let.

[Steve Webb]

I hesitate to bring facts into the debate, but the number of properties in the private rented sector with tenants on housing benefit, which the hon. Lady says is falling and indeed she also says that such properties are hard to find, has risen since November 2008—

[Glenda Jackson]

Where?

[Steve Webb]

Across the country. It has risen since November 2008 by 440,000. To listen to the hon. Lady talk, one would imagine that tenants on housing benefit cannot find anywhere to live. There are 1 million tenants on housing benefit in the private rented sector. To listen to her, one would think that those people do not exist. Unfortunately for her, I am afraid that what she describes is at variance with the facts.

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[Steve Webb]

Okay, I shall give way to the other hon. Lady.

[Glenda Jackson]

I just wondered whether the Minister had the shared accommodation figures, and why hard-working taxpayers are not offended by HMRC allowing people to have tax breaks when they let a room.