Social Mobility (Wales)

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Chris Elmore]

I wholeheartedly agree. As the only one of three siblings to go to university, I think there is a real issue with social mobility—never mind going to Oxford or Cambridge—and the impact that child poverty has on young people’s opportunities to go on to higher education or even, in some cases, further education.

Education became the greatest tool for advancing social mobility, and the Government would do well to remember that. Labour also introduced the national minimum wage—a fantastic achievement for a number of reasons, not least for its impact on social mobility. Since the foundation of the Welsh Government, much effort has been put into ensuring we make strides to improve equality of opportunity across our nation.

As a result of various initiatives introduced by successive Administrations, unemployment in Wales is falling faster than it is in the UK as a whole, and it continues to be lower than the UK average. Last week, the Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates, launched Wales’s economic action plan, which sets out to deliver a dynamic new relationship between the Government and business as partners for growth. It will ensure that public investment fulfils a social purpose. That new economic contract will require the Welsh Government to support the conditions for growth. In return, businesses seeking direct investment must demonstrate, as a minimum requirement, growth potential; fair work, as defined by the Fair Work Board; and the promotion of health—including a special emphasis on mental health—skills and learning in the workplace. Through such strategies, the Welsh Government are committed to working with business to provide skilled jobs for people across Wales. That is particularly welcome, given the impact of deindustrialisation across Wales.

The UK Government need to take note of that kind of innovative and progressive thinking when starting to take action on social mobility across the United Kingdom. The Government finally announced the start of discussions on a north Wales growth plan, which is a good opportunity for them, as part of their negotiations, to support the communities and industries across the region with a focus on skills and jobs.

There has been considerable investment to close the education attainment gap and improve skill levels, and the Welsh Government are making tremendous efforts to increase the number of apprentices to 100,000 before 2021. To do that, they will increase investment in apprenticeships from £96 million to £111.5 million for 2017-18 alone. On top of that, they are focusing on the early years of children’s lives—the stage when we can have the most impact on improving their health, education and other outcomes later in life. In 2015, the Welsh Government launched a child poverty strategy with five key objectives to tackle the underlying causes of child poverty and provide more equality of opportunity for low-income families across Wales. It includes strategies such as free school meals, the Healthy Child Wales programme, the Business Wales services, the Wales economic growth fund, support for the work of credit unions, the Skills Gateway service, the Lift programme and many more initiatives targeted at enabling individuals from less wealthy backgrounds to access opportunities from an early age.

Recently, it was announced that there will be a fresh approach to improving prosperity in the south Wales valleys, led by the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies, and driven by his ministerial taskforce. It will ensure that no communities are left behind. The “Our Valley, Our Future” plan will foster good- quality jobs, better public services and community cohesion in some of our poorest towns and villages.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Welsh Government’s new policy, will he confirm that it will be a more effective use of public money than the £500 million that was wasted on Communities First?

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[Chris Elmore]

I agree. The Royal College of Nursing, Unison, GMB and the trade unions across the public sector have all said that they expect the UK Government to raise the cap—or to scrap the cap, to borrow the hashtag on Twitter—because they do not see it as the responsibility of the Administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast to scrap it. I am aware that the Scottish Government have introduced some changes, but those should not be at the cost of other public services. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the emphasis is on the UK Government to step up and to give public sector workers a pay rise.

There is also reason to be concerned about higher education figures in Wales: the entry rate is 37.5%, compared with 42.5% in England. Such matters are being addressed by the Welsh Government, but with a UK Government reluctant to concede the scale of the problem and offer appropriate funding, the problems come as little surprise.

At Bridgend College in my constituency—and in yours, Mrs Moon—at the Pencoed campus in Ogmore, a huge amount of work has been done to encourage people into higher and further education. I have met truly inspiring students, many of whom are the first in their family to stay in education beyond the age of 16, and some of whom now have aspirations to study at university, including Oxford, Cambridge and beyond—to go back to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David). Thanks to the Welsh Government, Wales will soon have the most generous student finance support package in the UK, helping more people from all backgrounds to reach their full potential.

Each week, as Members, we see the true lack of social mobility as we help vulnerable people through our surgeries and casework, and all the while there are more billionaires in the UK than ever before. I have no problem with success or business; I have a problem with the widening inequality between the poorest and the richest across this country. The situation could be addressed via an increase in the block grant and, if the Minister talks about the floor or whatever, the reality is that all those things can be implemented—but the Barnett formula needs to be reviewed and changed. In case he wishes to remind me, I am well aware that throughout the 13 years of Labour government the formula was not reviewed, but I make the point strongly that in every single year of a Labour Government the block grant was increased, only to be cut and cut by the current Government.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Elmore]

I have nearly finished my speech, but I am sure the Minister can come back on this in his response to the debate.

If the Government here in Westminster were to reassess their block grant to the Welsh Government, that could open up opportunities to create more targeted and direct support to tackle poverty and increase social mobility. In real terms, the Welsh Government budget will be 5% lower in 2019-20 than it was in 2010-11. Cuts have consequences and we can see the impact of austerity in each and every one of our communities, no matter which party we represent in the House.

We should remember that progress has been made, and I have been fortunate enough to see the benefits in my community. Unfortunately, across Wales it is still overwhelmingly the case that a person’s opportunities in life are determined by their background. I sincerely hope that the UK Government will give consideration to the obstacles in the path of social mobility in Wales and act to make it easier for everyone in life to succeed, regardless of who they are and where they come from.

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[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mrs Moon. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this important debate, and I am honoured to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who made a considered and quite inspiring speech.

To speak plainly, responsibility for social mobility lies with the National Assembly. The Welsh Government have a crucial role to play in reducing inequality in Wales, but it is also true that every decision taken in Westminster has a very real impact on people’s prospects in Wales, whether it be on social security, digital connectivity or infrastructure, to name just those areas I intend to concentrate on today. I have to return to my expertise in a former life—I was a director in a large further education establishment—and I must reiterate the integral role that education plays in promoting social mobility.

In one of the earlier speeches, early years, vocational education and higher education were mentioned. Those, in terms of funding, targets, quality of achievement and the curriculum, are entirely within Labour’s remit in Wales. It is important to emphasise that in the role that we expect education to play. I have seen how the effects of the political choices made in different areas of Wales have played out, and it would be extremely disingenuous of me not to remind the Chamber of the role of Labour in that respect. However, today I intend to be “on location” and direct my arguments to the Minister.

One other thing I would like to question slightly is using Oxbridge as our measure of success. It is interesting that so many people here attended Oxford and Cambridge, but we should be building a society where someone can gain that capability and confidence without having public, or private, school education and Oxbridge university education behind them. We should be building that in Wales for our young people to achieve near to their own homes.

In the effort to champion social mobility, redistribute wealth and provide opportunity, every socioeconomic pillar must carry its load. The Government are failing to raise the people of Wales through the measures in their remit of social security, infrastructure and digital connectivity in particular. Changes to social security made by the Government will hit the poorest areas hardest. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has revealed that Westminster’s benefit cuts will trigger a rise of over 5% in child poverty in Wales, compared to 1.5% in London. Wales remains the only country in western Europe without an inch of electrified railway, and all the while Welsh taxpayers are contributing towards High Speed 2. We hear disingenuous arguments as to how HS2 will benefit us. Frankly, I have concerns about how it will affect services from Cardiff to Manchester via Crewe and services along the north Wales line as well.

Only yesterday, we read reports in the Financial Times that the Westminster Government are having cold feet over the Swansea bay tidal lagoon project—we already had that impression—which is an investment that would bring £316 million of gross value added in its construction alone. What about digital connectivity? Recently, the Westminster Government invested significant sums to improve broadband infrastructure in three of the four UK nations—but not in Wales. They found £20 million for ultrafast broadband in Northern Ireland and £10 million was found for full-fibre broadband in six trial areas across England and Scotland, yet nothing for Wales. According to Ministers, the decision on where to invest the money was based on how likely they believed it was that the investment would stimulate short-term economic growth, effectively to boost headline statistics. That is where the fundamental problem lies and where the link between social mobility in Wales and Westminster’s priority is at its weakest.

It is not the Government’s job to pick who wins and who loses in the British state; it is their job to provide equality of opportunity. There is of course a complex link between regional inequality and social mobility. Poverty in the UK is particularly concentrated in Wales, affecting nearly one in four people, while the UK poverty rate remains at 16.8%. Median weekly salaries stand at £393 in Wales, compared with £434 in England. When I hear about the employment rate, yes, I am delighted that people are in full-time worthwhile work, but I also know of people in my constituency who are holding down three or four jobs in order to make a living. There must be a question about salaries and regional inequality in the United Kingdom.

In the past 10 years, under successive Westminster Governments, productivity in my county of Gwynedd has fallen by 10% while productivity in central London has risen by more than 5%. Unlike the Westminster Government, the EU recognises wealth inequality as a problem to be addressed, and attempts have been made to make up for Westminster’s neglect and to strengthen Wales’s economy by redistributing wealth. I know we discussed the effects of European structural funds. Could we take a step back and consider where Wales would be if we had not received those funds? They were there for the noble principle of addressing inequality and poverty.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is somewhat unreasonable in her comments. The European structural funds were provided to ensure that GDP levels in Wales were comparable with the average of the European Union. That measure failed significantly in the Welsh context, and I want to stress that that was not the fault of the European Union. It failed as a result of the way in which the projects were designed in a Welsh context. That has been the problem.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Again, what would the position of Wales have been if we had not received those funds? We may not agree on the way they were used, but I am truly concerned that we are moving to a future in which there is no principle on addressing and raising those funds.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am coming to a close.

At a time when we are being pulled out of the European Union, the Westminster Government must stick to their promises at the time of the referendum and ensure that Wales will continue to receive every single penny that it received thanks to the EU’s redistributive wealth policies. I beg to ask the Minister to say what Wales’s fair share will be.

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[Chris Evans]

I absolutely agree. In some cases we have to intervene family by family, but it is a huge undertaking in terms of human resources and financial investment. As we saw under Labour Governments between 1997 and 2010, when we have the will we can reduce child poverty, and we did. I do not want to paint a picture of my constituency as all doom and gloom. I absolutely hate it when people talk us down. How can we attract high-quality jobs when we keep telling people we are dependent on soup kitchens? In Islwyn—Mrs Moon, you will know as a member of the Defence Committee—we have General Dynamics creating high-quality, high-skilled jobs. That is the future, but we have to do three things.

The one thing we have not talked about in this debate is entrepreneurship. Our future will not depend on the public sector. If we are to create high-quality jobs, they have to come from within Wales. But I will say this. How many people in this room—will the Minister accept this?—know how to go about setting up a business and how to deal with VAT and human resources? How many people spoke to anybody in school who said to them, “Business could be the way forward for you”? Think about it. We talk all the time about academics. The most famous entrepreneurs in this country—Lord Sugar of “The Apprentice”; Duncan Bannatyne of “Dragons’ Den”—share one thing in common. Not one of them has a single qualification between them, but they all managed to build companies that employ thousands of people, bringing wealth to this country.

I have talked to the Federation of Small Businesses. Business is vital. We have 250,100 active businesses in Wales with a combined turnover of £117 billion; 95% are micro-businesses employing no more than nine people. Large businesses make up only 0.7% but employ 38% of the workforce. We need to go into schools to encourage enterprise. We need entrepreneurs to talk to our schoolchildren. If we think that that cannot be done, just look at the viewing figures for “Dragons’ Den” or “The Apprentice”. One of the most viewed programmes at the weekend was the final of “The Apprentice”. People see business as something exciting that they can get involved in, but it cannot be on the other side of a television screen. Someone, whether it is Lord Sugar or a local entrepreneur or employer, needs to come to schools to tell people about their experiences.

We should ask ourselves about the way we teach children. It is no good saying we have a GCSE pass rate of 60%. What about the other 40%? I have to ask about the way we teach our children not only in Wales but all over the country. We know from academic studies that people learn in four different ways, yet we teach people only in one way: the teacher in front of the class teaching the kids. Some kids will flourish, but others will not. We therefore have to look at the way people learn. We have so many opportunities. In years to come, traditional exams will not be the measure.

I recently visited the Man Group, an investment company that is investing in artificial intelligence. It told me that it now wants graduates with degrees in machine learning. The graduate entry level salary for that is £60,000. Most of its graduates will have been to Oxford. We should teach kids coding and similar skills from an early age, because the future will be automation and artificial intelligence. My son Zachariah is 10 months old, and he will probably do a job that I have never heard of. We must start teaching kids the core skills in school. The issue goes back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) said: we need mentors in schools, to teach people about those things.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) talked about the 1944 Butler report and the tripartite system. We have neglected technical skills. I believe that people voted for Brexit because of fear of immigration. Those migrants will not now come in. We need to invest in technical education, and that needs to come from the Government, but we need to make sure that technical qualifications involve the same level of attainment as a degree. Not everyone is academic; some people are good with their hands.

[Guto Bebb]

I applaud the hon. Gentleman on a fantastic speech. The attainment levels in those General Dynamics apprenticeships, which are being supported by Y Coleg Merthyr Tudful, are really quite inspiring. Does he agree that the fact that those opportunities are available in valleys communities will make the difference and show that young people can have a future in those communities?

[Chris Evans]

I congratulate the Minister: I am quite shocked—I have been in the House seven years and he has never said anything nice about me before, so I can only think he must have been visited by the same Christmas spirits who haunted Ebenezer Scrooge all those years ago. The worst thing is that I agree with him. I should stop and move on.

If we are truly to tackle social mobility we need a change in our mindset. We need radical solutions. We cannot go on as we are. If one person fails, we all fail. Together, if we are radical and think outside the box, we can ensure that the next generation will have better opportunities than the present one.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who made a passionate speech. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this important debate.

Crippling austerity, welfare cuts, unfair and disorganised welfare reforms, plummeting productivity, stagnant wages and increased living costs will only increase under the Tory Government as a result of their shambolic Brexit negotiations. Is it any wonder that social mobility is suffering? Only two weeks ago, as we have heard, Alan Milburn, the chair of the Government’s Social Mobility Commission, and the entire team resigned, citing “lack of political leadership”. The findings of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, that almost 400,000 more children and 300,000 more pensioners have been impoverished in the UK since 2013, are shocking. The Tory Government should be ashamed, despite the rhetoric of the Prime Minister, who promised when she was elected to heal social divisions and bridge the gap between the classes. Her Government have done nothing to improve social mobility. On the contrary, she and her predecessors have presided over the first sustained increase in child poverty in 20 years. They achieved that by adopting anti-welfare policies, cutting in-work benefits and freezing housing and children’s benefits in an economy that is already squeezing family incomes.

The latest figures show that 30% of children in this country live in poverty: that is 4 million children, 67% of whom come from working families. That means that children do not have enough food to eat. It means parents having to decide between putting their children to bed at night either cold or hungry. That is not because their parents do not love them, or are not working long and hard enough at many different jobs; it is because of the Government. Wages are getting lower while prices for everything else get higher.

How do those children have a chance of getting out of the poverty cycle? Only a generation ago, a Labour Government provided people from low-income backgrounds with full grants to go to university. Most of them went on to become teachers, nurses, social workers and doctors. They were given good-quality training and education to provide us all with high standards of public services and a reliable, respectable career with opportunities to progress. My father spent his life teaching children, many of whom were from disadvantaged backgrounds. As a leader in outdoor education he equipped them with the skills and knowledge to gain confidence, achieve and succeed. Many of them returned years later to tell him the difference that he made, and that education made, to their lives. Now, thanks to the Government, a young person must decide whether to take on up to £50,000 of debt to get a degree, knowing that there is no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

[Guto Bebb]

On the issue of tuition fees, is not the participation rate in England higher than in Wales and Scotland, even though until now there has been a reduced tuition rate in Wales? If the hon. Lady thinks the level of debt is a barrier to going into further education, has she made representations to the Welsh Government about their proposals to increase tuition fees for Welsh students?

[Anna McMorrin]

The Welsh Government are keeping tuition fees at a lower level than the UK Government; I have had conversations with the UK Government about it. The Welsh Government are keeping them at a much lower level and supporting our students in Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Anna McMorrin]

No, I will not give way; I am going to continue.

Perhaps the Prime Minister’s idea of social mobility is the Conservative ideal of a select, lucky few doing that much better than their parents while the rest fail to get on in life and are left behind. When I turn on the television or read a newspaper, I see a structured class system representing a specific, small part of society. I see all those with the same names, who went to the same schools and universities and who now hang out in the same private members’ clubs, representing perhaps 1% of our society. I see them speaking out and trying to represent us; they deign to represent us all. It is not that children in my constituency, or people anywhere who go to local schools and universities, are not good enough; they just were not born into the right background. We are lucky in Wales that we do not have such a rigid class structure, but the entrenched class system is pervasive and prevents many from succeeding. The barriers need to be broken down. How are we to do that if many UK civil servants are from those same privileged backgrounds? It is up to the UK Government to start breaking down those barriers.

Upward mobility involves an assumption that some jobs are better than others; and in fact many jobs, available only to those able to get on with their education, are more secure, and offer better conditions and benefits. Instead of continuing with their empty rhetoric, the Government should consider social equality. Our Government in Wales are pursuing that with investment in education, skills, growth and better jobs closer to home. To make a difference, I ask the Government to set change in motion.

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[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. EU structural funds were allocated around Europe on the basis of need, and four of the six counties in north Wales—including the Minister’s own area of Conwy—are some of the poorest areas in Europe. As a north Walian and a Welsh MP, the Minister should be campaigning with us to ensure that Wales does not lose out.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Chris Ruane]

I am afraid I have almost taken my 10 minutes, but I thank the Minister for the work that he has done on the growth deal.

[Chris Ruane]

Then I will give way to the Minister.

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because on this occasion I was going to make a constructive point. He makes the case for EU structural funds, which I will discuss in due course. However, a strategic approach for the whole of north Wales was precluded under European structural funding, because it was confined to the four counties in the west, rather than a strategic approach across the whole of north Wales. There will be some advantages to being able to hone our own response when putting funding into north Wales.

[Chris Ruane]

Those funds were allocated on the basis of need for the whole of Wales. I was very fortunate in managing to persuade the then junior Minister at the Wales Office, Peter Hain, to accept European structural funds for the Minister’s county of Conwy and the county of Denbighshire. Thirteen counties had been chosen, and those two had been left out, but as a result of representations made by myself, Elfyn Llwyd, Gareth Thomas and Betty Williams, along with council leaders, we were able to ensure that those counties were included.

As a result, there are many projects in the Minister’s own constituency and county—I think Venue Cymru is one of them—that have benefited massively from that investment. The Minister quite often intervenes on other Members and pooh-poohs that £9 billion, saying we do not need it. Maybe he wants to send it back. Perhaps he should go to Venue Cymru and say, “All of this is a waste of time; we don’t really need this.” Perhaps he should consult those workers and ask them if the jobs created in his own community are a waste of time. Perhaps he would like to put them back on the dole.

My wider point is that we have benefited from the structural funds. In my constituency, we have the OpTIC research and incubation project—a £40 million strategic project that looks at the opto-electronics industry in the whole of north Wales, which comprises about 35 companies and 2,000 workers. The projects builds on that strength, hothouses new companies on the back of that and creates excellent opportunities for local people to progress without leaving north Wales. Some will want to leave, and some will want to leave the country, but we should give those young people the opportunity to be socially mobile without being geographically mobile, so they can stay in their communities.

The OpTIC project in my constituency would not have taken place if it had not been for the additional money sent into the county from Brussels. The point that many of us have made today is that we want that additional money to carry on coming to our areas of Wales, not out of favouritism but because of need—need that was recognised and rewarded by Brussels. A big dollop of jam came to us, and we do not want it to be taken away and spread thinly over the UK. We want that money where it is needed, which is in west Wales and the valleys.

On the growth fund, which I mentioned before, I am grateful to the Minister for inviting us, on a cross-party basis, to meet him, his civil servants and north Wales council leaders in the Wales Office the other week. I hope that that additional funding, which we desperately need, will be allocated or reallocated through that north Wales growth fund. I also welcome the announcement of the mid-Wales growth fund, but I do not want to see the funds that were to be allocated to north Wales halved, with the other half being sent to mid-Wales. [Interruption.] The Minister laughs, but will he give us a categorical assurance that the funding that we get for those funds will be comparable to the best England has had? Areas such as Manchester received £238 per head. I tabled a parliamentary question on the amount of growth deal funding for each of the city deals in England, which was answered yesterday. That information was not given to me, but I want to make sure that the money that we get in Wales matches the best they have had in England.

The growth deal is a perfect vehicle to make sure that that additional investment that we had from Europe is maintained, and that we are able to improve the social mobility of our young people. On the growth deal funding, what percentage will be new money? What is the balance of funding between central Government, the Welsh Government, local government and other funders? What will the likely level of funding be?

Some progress has been made on social mobility over the past 20 years, and many of those gains were made as a result of the actions taken by the previous Labour Government. The Social Mobility Commission commends the centrality of early years services, which have been embedded in the UK. It was not there in 1996; it is there now because of Sure Start and other early years programmes across the whole of the United Kingdom. The commission calls early years services

“a new arm of the welfare state”,

so that has survived. However, it mentions a lack of progress on many other fronts; indeed, there has been a retrenchment in areas such as young people’s services, work and divisions in society.

The Minister is here, and he has heard representation from Members from across Wales, and even from across the border in England. I ask him to listen carefully to what has been said, to do his job and take that back to his Government, and to make sure that Wales gets the fair deal it deserves, to make sure that we have social mobility in future.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon, and to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). I want to ensure that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) is not only congratulated on securing the debate but also has a few minutes to respond at the end of the debate, so my contribution will be somewhat curtailed.

It has been an interesting debate, and I argue that it has been at its best, and the speeches have been at their best, when they have not been partisan. I know I am guilty of being one of the most partisan Members in this place when I want to be, but I will try to respond in a manner similar to most of the speeches we have heard, rather than those with a “Money, money, money” theme, which seemed to be the message from some hon. Members. However, on the whole, the debate has been thoughtful, useful and constructive. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Ogmore, as I have said, for securing the debate and for the majority of his speech, which looked at the core issues at stake. On the whole, it was a constructive speech, although it occasionally fell into supporting the Welsh Government come what may.

The hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) made an impassioned speech on the importance of people being aware of whether they can or cannot take their opportunities for further education. While I would describe the universities in Wales as the elite universities—not least Aberystwyth University, which I attended—the hon. Gentleman made an important point about aspiration. When looking at some of those giants of recent Welsh history, who came from valley communities, slate quarrying villages and farming stock, and who actually aspired to education, we have to ask why we have lost that in the Welsh context. The hon. Gentleman’s comments are well worth further consideration by those who actually take an interest in the goings-on of this place.

I also welcome the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) to the debate. I congratulate him on his work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility, and I appreciate his interest in the cross-border work of the Wales Office. He made some really important points about the London-centric nature of the UK economy, which I subscribe to. I believe that one problem we have, not only in the Welsh context but throughout the UK, is that we have a London-centric view of the world, which needs to be challenged. The hon. Gentleman is clearly doing excellent work as part of the all-party parliamentary group system here in Westminster. I would argue that most of my constructive contributions in this place between 2010 and 2015 were made through all-party parliamentary groups, so I encourage the hon. Gentleman to carry on with his work and to keep on being involved with us in north Wales, in relation to the potential of the north Wales growth deal.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who highlighted that many of the issues we have talked about, including educational attainment and training and so on, are devolved to the Welsh Government. That point was worth making. However, at the same time, she was quite happy to challenge me, as the Wales Office Minister representing the UK Government.

At this point, I think I need to once again clarify my point about EU structural funds. I congratulate the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd and for Caerphilly (Wayne David), and all politicians who ensured that Wales received EU structural funds at the highest level, on their involvement at the time. I have said that on the record time and again. The point I have also made, which is still worth reiterating, is that the reason Wales achieved the highest level of EU funding intervention was to ensure that our GDP was comparable to the EU average.

That was not achieved, so before we ask for more money, we need to ask ourselves why that investment did not achieve the desired goals. It is simply not good enough for the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd to claim that the situation would have been even worse without that intervention; we need to ensure that in the future, if we have intervention through a UK Government shared prosperity fund, that intervention improves the GDP of Wales and the life chances of all people in Wales. We should be willing to learn lessons from the fact that the whole purpose of EU structural funds in Wales did not deliver the growth we were hoping for.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

In the spirit of planning ahead, much mention has been made of apprenticeships today. I represent an extremely rural area, where we have a shortage of skills when we are looking at developing, say, the Wylfa site. We need workplaces in which people can undertake apprenticeships. We do not have those workplaces in north-west Wales in sufficient numbers. Will the Minister commit to looking at creative ways of finding workplaces that will enable young men and women to be trained for engineering and construction in the future?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes a point that I fully subscribe to. The Wales Office stands ready to support any initiative in a Welsh context that extends the number of apprenticeship places available. We are certainly of the view that the financial contribution made by the UK Government to the Welsh Government through the apprenticeship levy has been significant, and that money should be spent.

The opportunities that exist in north-west Wales include the development of a new nuclear power station in Wylfa and the work going on in Airbus, with the apprenticeship schemes available at RAF Valley. Those schemes are strong. They are making a difference and showing young people that there is an alternative to going to university. I have seen the success stories in north Wales of Coleg Cambria and Grŵp Llandrillo Menai replicated in south Wales with Coleg Merthyr and other colleges, as a result of my role as a Minister in the Wales Office.

I highlighted, for example, how impressed I was with the enthusiasm and commitment of apprentices when I visited the General Dynamics site in Merthyr Tydfil. That is the way to show young people that educational achievement does not necessarily mean aspiring to Oxbridge. There is no reason why anybody in Wales should not aspire to improve themselves from an educational perspective, but that improvement can happen in their local communities. Opportunities should be enhanced for people to get qualifications in the workplace, ensuring that they are earning while learning.

In Wales, we have some of the better further education institutions. They are doing great work, but they should be fully supported by the Welsh Government in delivering more for the people of Wales. I genuinely thought that the comments from the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) were inspiring. Colleagues have said clearly that we need to sell the concept of going further in education. We need to sell the ability of young people to see themselves attending some of our finest institutions.

We need to be proud of the fact that we have a significant entrepreneurial spirit in Wales. How often is that sold in local schools? The biggest success in my constituency since I was elected has been Sean Taylor, a veteran who left the Army and decided to set up a high ropes training and outdoor pursuits centre. He subsequently created the Zip World business, which now employs 240 people in my constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, 75% of whom are local Welsh speakers. Those people have had an opportunity to work, develop skills and gain qualifications while seeing that setting up a business in their community can make a real difference. I am proud to say that Sean Taylor is the type of entrepreneur who is willing to go out and explain to young people, “You can aspire to university and to a medical or legal profession, but you can also make a big difference in your community.”

I am proud to represent a constituency with one of the highest levels of self-employment. It has been said that in rural Wales, self-employment is often a case of doing anything to earn a living because of people’s pride in themselves and their community, and because no other opportunities are available. We need to make setting up a business and being entrepreneurial a key opportunity for young people to move forward in their communities. Nothing gives me greater pride than when, in my role as a Minister in the Wales Office, I meet young people who have set up businesses in my constituency and across the length and breadth of Wales.

While I thought the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) was somewhat partisan in her comments, I am happy to agree that we need to deal with the lack of social mobility. I want to allow the hon. Member for Ogmore a few minutes to respond, but before I finish my comments, I need to touch on some of the issues raised in the debate. Clearly social mobility is important for this Government. It was said in some of the most thoughtful comments by Opposition Members that nobody in the Chamber can be proud of our record on that issue. If, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, the highest point of social mobility in our history was achieved in 1958, that is a stain on all of us. If, 10 years before I was born, we reached the high point of social mobility in our communities, we genuinely need to ask ourselves what went wrong. No amount of finger pointing between Westminster, the UK Government and the Welsh Government will change anything unless we are willing to acknowledge where we have a weakness.

This debate is entitled “Social mobility in Wales”. We have agreed that education is crucial, and we need to acknowledge that in Wales we are not performing as we should. I am not going to say anything more than that, but we all acknowledge that we are not performing in Wales to the standard of the UK as a whole or the rest of our competitors in the European Union. We need to be very clear about that. When Germany found itself failing under the PISA regime, it acted, and in 10 years it managed to get itself from a very low level to once again leading. The report on PISA in Germany sent shockwaves through the German political system, and the question I ask is: why are those shockwaves not resonating through the corridors of the Welsh Government in Cardiff? We need to do a lot of work on education. It is not perfect in England, but it is certainly not as good as it should be in Wales, and Members should acknowledge that.

Members have highlighted the need to ensure that the concept of lifelong learning is understood. That is why investment in our further education colleges is crucial. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston made the crucial point that education, and certainly education in the workplace, does not end at the age of 18 or 21. It is increasingly the case that 35 to 50-year-olds are looking to retrain. As we are all living longer and expected to work longer, we have to acknowledge that we need to adapt to the workplace. One of the key things I have seen at further education colleges that I have visited in Wales is their commitment to take on apprentices regardless of their age.

Another issue that we need to be aware of is the importance of making work pay. We have seen in Wales since 2010 a significant reduction in the number of children in workless households. That is very important. The Office for National Statistics has highlighted that families in which members are in work are, on the whole, in a position to make more of their lives and have better outcomes than those where that is not the case. Interestingly, the ONS statistics also highlight that, regardless of a household’s income level, where there is someone in employment, outcomes are better. I often hear complaints from the Labour party about the type of jobs being created, but we should always take pride in any jobs that are being created and in allowing people to take care of their own future.

One thing that has come out of the debate is that poverty can be measured in financial terms. I acknowledge that. The hon. Members for Torfaen and for Islwyn and others highlighted the importance of dealing with poverty of ambition. We need to be champions within our communities, highlighting to young people that there are financial difficulties in terms of ensuring equality of opportunity, but also challenging the poverty of ambition that blights too many of our communities in Wales and across the United Kingdom.