Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

There will be more HMRC jobs in Wales as a result of the reorganisation than is currently the case. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the situation in Wales is one of employment growth—99,000 more jobs than in 2010, and 119,000 more jobs in the private sector. The employment story in Wales is a success of which the hon. Gentleman should be proud.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Today’s important report from the Institute for Public Policy Research provides a damning indictment of direct Westminster rule over the Welsh economy. Does the Minister agree that the only solution is greater economic powers for Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is like a stuck record on this issue. Rather than citing reports from high-flown companies, he should highlight the real, on-the-ground success story: unemployment in Wales is falling and fewer people are dependent on welfare. We are creating jobs and a successful economy in Wales. The hon. Gentleman should celebrate that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I could not agree more. Such investment is welcome, and I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for Defence for his part in ensuring that that investment came to north Wales. North-east Wales is an engineering powerhouse in the UK economy, and the investment in the F-35 project is welcome and further enhances engineering opportunities for young people in north-east Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

At the beginning of this year, FieldMaster Tractors Ltd, a tractor assembly company in my constituency, signed a joint venture agreement with Longhua, a Chinese company, that would have created 40 jobs in my constituency with aims of expanding. Last week, the owner received notification from China that the deal was off due to uncertainty about our future trading relationship with the European Union. Does the Minister recognise that the UK Government’s dithering over Wales’s future relationship with the single market and the customs union is costing jobs now?

[Guto Bebb]

I am disappointed to hear that news and would be more than happy to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman—any loss of investment in Wales is to be regretted. He is wrong, however, to talk about dithering. The Government are clear that we want strong trade relations with the European Union and with the rest of the world. Any Chinese investor looking at the UK knows that this country is friendly to investment from all parts of the globe.

Post Offices in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

Clearly, business rates will vary from business to business, depending upon the area. Certainly business rates are an issue for many small businesses in the Welsh context, and the Wales Office is very happy to raise with the Welsh Government the need to ensure that we have a structure in place that is beneficial to small businesses.

There is a commitment to protect community post offices and, indeed, to invest in modernising them to ensure that they provide a service for local communities. It is worth pointing out that where community post offices are lost, they are quite often replaced by a mobile service. In my constituency of Aberconwy, a number of rural villages are now served by a mobile post office service.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I will make only a brief intervention, as I know the Minister will want to answer the points raised by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas). In relation to the recent reforms, one issue that has arisen is the designation of sub-post offices, especially in some rural communities. For instance, we have a fantastic post office in Llangadog, but it has lost its community post office status, which means a loss of around £8,000 a year in grant. It has been designated a post office local because there is another shop in the village that could offer different services. The Post Office is playing businesses off against one another. Does the Minister agree that it is time we had a look at that and worked to strengthen those community post offices, giving them the support they need to expand the services they offer?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. It is difficult for me to comment on the particular situation in the village he mentioned, but in terms of the overall picture, the commitment to community post offices has been strong. For example, where a community post office is transferred to new ownership, the community status is maintained. I am more than happy to take representations in written format in relation to the particular village in question, but it is difficult for me to comment at this point in time.

Out of courtesy to the hon. Member for Wrexham, I should say that, although this is a debate about post offices in Wales, his comments were primarily about disability access in Wrexham. I understand the situation there. I was in Wrexham last Friday morning, speaking to a business professionals group, and Wrexham is in a very interesting situation. It is a thriving town in many ways, but there have been a number of retail developments in parts of Wrexham that have changed the centre of gravity on the high street.

I know Wrexham fairly well, having been born in the vicinity a long time ago. The changes on Wrexham high street are a concern to the hon. Gentleman; I fully appreciate that. I am also well aware, from reading the north Wales papers that he has highlighted, of the number of empty premises in Wrexham. It is important to note that the post office in Wrexham remains a Crown post office. Unlike the many agreements with WHSmith, the post office is run by Post Office members of staff. It is hosted by WHSmith but remains an independent Crown post office.

The hon. Gentleman’s summary of how the public consultation took place is similar to that provided by my officials. There was a six-week consultation period, which is par for the course when there is a possibility of moving a Crown post office to new premises. There must be a plan in place for accessibility. I understand that fewer than 10% of such moves have resulted in a post office facility being on the first floor, but the hon. Gentleman said that any such move is unacceptable.

It is important to note that the Post Office works within its own guidelines. That ensures that there is an assessment of accessibility, and I am more than happy to share those guidelines with the hon. Gentleman if that would be helpful. In addition to following the guidelines, it is necessary to consult and to ensure that people with disabilities have an opportunity to see whether the facilities work, and I understand that the hon. Gentleman attended when that opportunity was afforded. He highlighted that he felt ashamed of what he saw. I am surprised that that disappointment was not reflected in the consultation process. His concerns were not fed back in the wider consultation process.

The question of whether there should ever be a post office on a first floor has been highlighted, and the accessibility issue includes accessibility in terms of the law and the guidelines. The Post Office assures me that on both counts that is the situation in Wrexham. I take fully on board the comments of the hon. Gentleman, but highlight the fact that the process has been followed in accordance with the Post Office’s guidelines and ensuring accessibility. The hon. Gentleman is clearly of the view that that is unacceptable, but his comments have been heard by the Post Office today.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I will speak on this issue in detail if I catch Mr Deputy Speaker’s eye later in the debate. The Minister will be aware that those powers were devolved to Scotland a matter of only a year or so ago, whereas the Silk commission reported four or five years ago. Perhaps the Silk commission would have come to a different conclusion if it reported now.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman asks me to comment on a hypothetical assertion. I shall refrain from doing so, but it is important to highlight that the Silk commission considered very carefully the difference between the porous nature of the border between England and Wales and the situation in Scotland. On balance, it is my view that the Silk commission came to the right conclusion, which is why we will reject the hon. Gentleman’s proposals. The Wales Act 2014 legislated for the vast majority of the recommendations in the Silk commission’s first report, and our focus should be to work with the Welsh Government to implement it.

On new clause 8, the youth justice system, as with other elements of the criminal justice system, is not currently devolved, but significant responsibilities in relation to the management and rehabilitation of young offenders are exercised by local authorities in Wales, working in partnership with the police and devolved services such as health, children’s services and education. Devolved and non-devolved services already work successfully together in Wales to prevent youth offending, and to manage and support young offenders in the community. The Youth Justice Board provides national oversight and monitoring of those arrangements, and the Youth Justice Board Cymru has worked closely with the Welsh Government to develop a joint youth offending strategy. That establishes a coherent framework for all those involved in delivering youth justice services and ensures that there is an effective youth justice system that meets the needs of young people in Wales.

The Silk commission noted that many of the causes of youth offending relate to devolved matters, and its recommendation on devolution was aimed at promoting greater integration. However, there was no consensus in favour of devolution when youth justice was discussed as part of the St David’s Day process. The Government believe it is important that legislative competence for youth justice remains reserved to allow us to develop a consistent and coherent approach to criminal justice, and the management of offenders across all age groups, within the single legal jurisdiction. There would be significant practical challenges in devolving responsibility for youth justice in Wales while responsibility for the police, courts and other elements of the criminal justice system are reserved.

We place a high priority on addressing youth offending and maintaining a strong relationship with the Welsh Government on those matters. The Ministry of Justice is currently considering the final report of Charlie Taylor, the former chief executive of the National College of Teaching and Leadership, on his review of the youth justice system. As part of his review, he visited Wales to meet Welsh Ministers and to see local youth offending services. The Ministry of Justice will work closely with the Welsh Government to consider the recommendations made in the final report with a view to publishing the report later this year with plans for reform. Given the co-operation that exists between devolved and non-devolved organisations, which we will seek to maintain in taking forward any plans for reform, we are not persuaded that devolving youth justice to create a separate youth justice system in Wales would result in a more flexible, economical or effective response to youth offending.

New clause 9, proposed by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), would open the door to the apprenticeship levy becoming a devolved tax. When introducing the apprenticeship levy, the Government wanted to make the system as simple as possible for employers to operate, and to avoid adverse impacts on the integrated UK-wide single market. Operating a UK-wide levy based on the national insurance definition of earnings is the best way to achieve this outcome. In particular, it is applied consistently to employers wherever they operate within the UK single market, while this definition of earnings is something that employers are familiar with and is information they readily have in their payroll. This also avoids considerable practical difficulties that would arise if there were different rates and thresholds of the apprenticeship levy in different parts of the UK, which appears to be the thrust of new clause 9. For example, as the charge is on the employer, it would be necessary to determine how such a system would operate for organisations working across borders. This would create additional burdens for businesses that we believe are sensibly avoided. In addition, the Government have made it quite clear that devolved nations will get their fair share of the levy, and discussions are ongoing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

I rise to speak in support of new clauses 6 and 7. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall press new clause 6 to a vote at the appropriate time.

This is the fourth occasion since my election in 2010 on which I have tabled a new clause or amendment calling for the devolution of air passenger duty to Wales. I am sure that the House will be extremely relieved to hear that I shall not make a detailed speech, as I have presented my arguments many times before and consider them to be completely bullet-proof. I am grateful for what was said by the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), who made the case for new clause 6 both strongly and eloquently. I will, however, remind the House of the broad reasoning behind Plaid Cymru’s proposal to devolve APD to Wales, and why it is significant to the Welsh economy.

As Members will know, APD has already been devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland. It was included as a key part of the carefully crafted package of devolved fiscal powers in the Silk commission’s recommendations. Anyone who talks to the commissioners who did that detailed and comprehensive work will be told that the fiscal powers were very much a package. I think it very regrettable that both the Wales Bill and the Finance Bill have subsequently cherry-picked that carefully crafted package. Of course devolving APD would give Wales a competitive advantage, and it was telling that the Minister in his opening remarks said his principal opposition to the devolving of APD was that it would give Wales a competitive advantage. The Wales Office says it is against giving Wales a competitive advantage; I will allow the people of Wales to make up their own minds on that.

[Guto Bebb]

The comment I made very clearly was that the devolving of APD would, according to the surveys we have undertaken, result in damage to the availability and choice for commuters and businesses in south-east Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that clarification.

Plaid Cymru tried to include APD devolution in the Finance Bills of 2013 and 2014, I recall, but we did fall to some very England-centric comments by the Treasury officials at the time. These arguments have not yet satisfied us, or I imagine the 70% of the people of Wales who support the devolution of APD, as reported in recent opinion polls—as I said in Committee, that is an extremely impressive opinion poll rating.

On Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister said it was right and proper for Wales not to have the same rights regarding APD as the other devolved nations, and he has reiterated that this evening. Why would the Wales Office seek to deny Wales the same powers as Scotland and Northern Ireland? Why would it deny our only international airport in Wales the potential to use those fiscal levers to expand and develop, and why would it deny the ability of the Welsh economy to grow?

Clearly, increasing footfall at the airport would generate substantial revenues elsewhere in Wales, primarily by boosting economic performance across the whole of the economy, not least of course in the Secretary of State’s constituency, Vale of Glamorgan. Let us remember also that, as Members have said, Cardiff airport is owned by the people of Wales. The Welsh Government effectively nationalised the airport and this additional lever would further enable them to utilise a huge asset in the direct ownership of the people of Wales. It is highly regrettable that we have an airport in England, Bristol airport, effectively deciding UK policy, to the detriment of Wales.

While on the subject of Bristol airport, perhaps I should correct a statement I made in Committee, and I am happy to do so. I said Bristol airport could not accommodate long-haul flights and therefore there was no reason not to devolve long-haul APD. I received a strongly worded letter from Bristol airport—as we can imagine—a few days after the debate; it can accommodate long-haul flights. I am happy to correct the record, therefore, but what it cannot accommodate is the world’s largest aircraft, which Cardiff airport can, given the length of its runway. With the prospect of Wales being dragged out of the biggest and most successful trading bloc in the world, now, more than ever, it is important that we connect Wales to the world, and clearly devolving APD to Wales would enable the Welsh Government to do that more effectively.

New clause 7, in the names of my parliamentary colleagues and myself, seeks to equalise the situation between Wales and Scotland on VAT revenues. I will not be pressing it to a vote, due to the time left this evening. However, I remind the House that there is a consensus that devolution of public spending responsibilities should be accompanied by the assignment of significant own sources of revenue. That principle has now been accepted as this Bill progresses, and therefore the debate in Wales between the political parties is about what that fiscal package of tax powers should consistent of.

Wales’s funding framework has been highly unusual from an international perspective: there are not many Governments in the world with significant legislative and spending powers who do not also have a correspondingly important responsibility for raising tax revenues. If the UK Government are serious about securing a lasting devolution settlement for Wales, VAT should be seriously considered as part of the package of devolved fiscal powers.

The Scotland Act 2016 stated that revenues from the first 10 percentage points of the standard VAT rate would be devolved by the 2019-20 financial year. The current UK VAT rate is 20%, and half of all the VAT raised in Scotland will be kept in Scotland. A recent article published by the Wales Governance Centre confirms what I said in Committee, stating that Welsh VAT revenues have

“been far more buoyant than other major taxes, such that VAT has become the largest source of revenue in Wales.”

This is in contrast to the rest of the UK and Scotland, where income tax remains the largest source. The Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales report concluded that around £5.2 billion was raised in VAT revenue in Wales in 2014-15. A similar deal to that of Scotland would mean around £2.6 billion being assigned to the Welsh Government. This would mean that more than a third of total devolved expenditure would be financed by devolved and assigned taxes. By my calculation, that would represent an increase of about 13% compared with the amount to be raised under the current proposals.

I presume that as long as we have a Conservative Government in charge of the Treasury here, economic growth will continue to be driven by consumer spending. If that is the case, it is all the more important that the people of Wales benefit directly from that growth and from their own spending power. By devolving proportionately low revenue yielding taxes compared with the UK average, such as income tax, without devolving proportionately high revenue yielding taxes compared with the UK average, such as VAT, the UK Government are setting the tone in the Bill for an unfair and unstable fiscal position for Wales.

The devolution of VAT rates has been dismissed in the UK in the past on the ground that European Union rules prohibit the variation of VAT rates within a member state. Although we are calling only for parity with Scotland in this instance, the UK’s exit from the EU could open a debate on devolving rate-setting powers to Wales. If, as the International Trade Secretary and the Brexit Secretary seem to want, the UK does not remain part of the single market, that could open up a world of possibilities for fiscal policy. Setting VAT rates could give Welsh Ministers a powerful macroeconomic lever, and could perhaps be used in conjunction with other tax powers in considering the overall progressivity of the tax system in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The meetings that we are having in north Wales have been with council leaders, further education leaders and leaders of Welsh businesses, and I am glad to say that they have involved both male and female leaders. The key point is that our approach in north Wales is inclusive and supported by all stakeholders. People realise the potential of north Wales joining the northern powerhouse for the benefit of all the residents of north Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Exports are central to any rebalancing strategy. Unlike the British state, which has a gigantic trade deficit, Wales has a significant trade surplus. It is the best performing component of the UK. What assessment has the Minister made of the number of countries across the world to which Welsh companies export, and the number of trade deals that will therefore have to be renegotiated? Does he not realise that tariff-free access to the single market is vital to the Welsh economy and that—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We have got his drift.

Gwynfor Evans and Welsh Politics

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I congratulate the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on his speech, which was very passionate, as I would have expected. It was slightly OTT at times, not in relation to Gwynfor Evans but in his comments about the way in which politics is moving in Wales. It is early days to measure the impact of the EU referendum on Wales, but I certainly join in with the mood of the Chamber in highlighting Gwynfor Evans’s contribution of to the life of Wales over the past century and his continuing influence on the way in which Welsh life and politics are developing. It is a sad reflection on that contribution that Carmarthen voted to leave the European Union, which must have been a great disappointment to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr—it certainly was to me.

[Jonathan Edwards]

In our sampling, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr voted conclusively for remain. It was Llanelli that let us down, so it is the Labour party’s fault.

[Guto Bebb]

I am more than happy to accept that straw poll evidence, but it is important to say that Gwynfor was associated with Carmarthenshire and with Wales, and there is no denying that in both contexts the result was a disappointment.

This is a great opportunity to join in the tributes to the life of Gwynfor Evans, 50 years after the political earthquake of the 1966 by-election. As the hon. Gentleman clearly stated, the party of which Gwynfor Evans became the first MP was not performing particularly well in the 1960s; there was a question mark over its future, so the 1966 result was transformational. Indeed, it contributed to the development of the Scottish National party, with the 1967 Hamilton by-election. Subsequently, even though the 1970 general election saw Gwynfor Evans lose his seat, before regaining it in 1974, there was an SNP victory in Western Isles. As a result, there has been SNP or Plaid Cymru representation in this place since 1966, which, I would argue, has contributed to the gaiety of the Chamber.

As has been mentioned, it is fair to say that Gwynfor Evans was a great writer, although whether he was a great historian remains to be seen. My grandfather was considered to be a historian and he knew Gwynfor Evans very well. I am glad that, unlike the hon. Gentleman, I met Gwynfor Evans on more than one occasion. I was at a victorious rally in Porthmadog back in 1980 when Gwynfor Evans was carrying on with his tour in relation to the S4C issue, obviously after the U-turn. I think Gwynfor took a leaf out of my grandfather’s book regarding history. My grandfather used to say that history was about saying good things about good people and I think that Gwynfor Evans’s view of history was to say good things about Wales, regardless of the evidence, but that is no bad thing. The purpose of his writing was to inform but also to persuade, and that is something we can forgive in an activist historian. I would argue that there is a place for such a historian.

If ever there was a political career that tried to replicate that of Robert the Bruce, Gwynfor’s was it. Time and again he failed, and time and again he carried on regardless. He stood unsuccessfully in Meirionnydd on at least two occasions, if not three, but there was never a situation in which he acknowledged defeat. The way in which Gwynfor took on adversity and carried on campaigning for what he believed in is a lesson for anyone involved in politics, and it clearly shows that political success is not necessarily measured in election success. I think I am right in saying that Gwynfor won only two elections in his entire career, but his contribution is much greater than that of many other Welsh MPs who won many more.

It is important to highlight Gwynfor’s political career, but the influence of that career relates not to the fact that he was elected to this place but to the way in which he fought for the Welsh language and culture, and the way in which he put those issues on the agenda. Early in his career, Gwynfor argued for the need for official recognition of the Welsh language. That came to pass. We had the Welsh Language Act 1967, which was rather weak but a step in the right direction, and I am proud to be a member of the party that delivered the Welsh Language Act 1993. I would go as far as to say that perhaps that Act was more carefully considered than the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, which was passed by the Welsh Assembly, but that would be a controversial statement at this point in time, and would go against the nature of the debate.

It is fairly clear that without the victory that Gwynfor Evans secured in 1966, the 1967 Act and the 1993 Act would not have been passed. The contribution of the two Acts was to normalise the concept of the Welsh language as part and parcel of everyone’s daily life. It is important to realise that before the Acts were passed, it was perfectly conceivable for children to be raised speaking Welsh at home and knowing that they lived in Aberteifi, yet to see a sign saying “Cardigan” when they were driven in and out of the town. The difference that 50 years has made is that everyone in Wales is now aware, when they drive into Wales, that Wales is a bilingual country. Back in 1966, when Gwynfor won that by-election that was certainly not the case, and we should acknowledge his contribution to the Welsh language. Clearly, there is still work to be done, but there is no doubt that the work that was started with such passion by Gwynfor Evans should be continued.

It should also be highlighted that Gwynfor Evans’s commitment was not just to the Welsh language as a stand-alone issue but to Welsh culture as well. I think I am right in saying that he chaired more national Eisteddfod days than any other politician and probably more than any other figure in the 20th century. His commitment was total: he was a Welshman through and through and he lived and breathed the language. We should also acknowledge the contribution that his family have subsequently made. Gwynfor was not someone who spoke in public about the need for the Welsh language and Welsh culture and then did nothing at home; he also delivered, ensuring that his family followed in his footsteps.

A few other issues are worth touching upon. S4C was undoubtedly the pinnacle of Gwynfor Evans’ career. S4C has been a political hot potato since I came into this place in 2010, and I hope I have contributed to protecting the funding of the fourth channel. It is genuinely superb to have been able to follow the Welsh football team all the way to the semi-finals of the European championship, and to do that with Welsh commentators. I pay tribute to players such as Aaron Ramsey who have been happy to tweet in Welsh during the tournament. The fact that we have Welsh coverage and Welsh pundits, such as Malcolm Allen—a credit to Wales, who could challenge the Icelandic commentator—is entirely due to the contribution made by Gwynfor Evans. It is crucial, therefore, that we maintain the support for and the funding of S4C because of its contribution not just to the culture of Wales but to its economy.

I am pleased to have been able to respond to the debate in the manner that I think would have been expected. The debate is a tribute to an important parliamentarian, but also to a politician who made much more of an impact outside the Chambers of this place than within them. I was not aware of the comment Gwynfor Evans made when he was offered a peerage—that there was only one Lord and that he did not reside on the bank of the Thames—and I leave hon. Members with this controversial comment: it is interesting that two of Gwynfor’s successors as party leader did not share that view.

Question put and agreed to.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

There has, of course, been a material change in conditions, following the events of the last few weeks and the EU referendum. From our perspective, we just want to get the Bill on the statute book, so that we can move on to the next big debate about the future of our country. Is the Minister seriously saying from the Dispatch Box today, after the events of the last few weeks, with Scottish independence imminent in the next few years and with Irish unification never being closer since Lloyd George decided to split that country in two, that this Bill will hold Wales together for the next generation?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is a passionate speaker and a strong advocate for his position. In a debate in Westminster Hall this morning, however, I warned of the dangers of creating history as we want to believe it to happen. I am not as yet convinced that there is enough evidence to suggest that Scotland is imminently about to leave the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] I am not convinced. There was a referendum two years ago that provided a fairly clear result. I think it would therefore be inappropriate to legislate on the basis of the wish list of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—much as I enjoy that wish list and the passion with which it is articulated.

The Government are fully committed to maintaining the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. It has served Wales very well. It is also our firm view that it is the most effective, efficient and consistent way to deliver justice. The issues raised by the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) highlighted some of the complexities that would be created if we moved away from that single jurisdiction at this point in time. The vast majority of law is not devolved, so there is no justification for a separate jurisdiction that would create significant upheaval and huge costs. It is worth highlighting that cost issues cannot be swept under the carpet. There would be a cost implication with very little benefit. I wonder whether Plaid Cymru Members have carried out a cost-benefit assessment to weigh up the benefits and the costs that would be incurred.

Amendment 5 envisages separate legal and court jurisdictions, administered by a common judiciary and court staff. It is designed to provide clarity, but I am not sure that it would. I think it would create more confusion, having the opposite effect—a point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan). The same people would be charged with administering two separate legal regimes where there is currently a commonality of law and procedure. This would have downstream consequences and it would impact on how the legal system works. It is difficult to justify such an impact on the basis of the current body of Welsh law.

We have heard the argument that the situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland is simpler because they have separate legal jurisdictions. I expected to hear that argument, but it ignores the historical reality that there has been—there always has been for that matter—a separate Scottish legal jurisdiction. I have engaged previously with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr on the laws of Hywel Dda, who is rightly remembered for the legal system he put in place.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds). I do not always agree with everything he says, but what he says, he says with substance, and is well thought out. I enjoyed his reference to James Griffiths, who is a proud son of Ammanford, which is my home town as well, so I will make sure that the South Wales Guardian reports his comments.

At the start of my contribution, I would like to raise an issue relating to the programme motion, which will be taken after these proceedings. There will be no debate on the programme motion, but when the Under-Secretary makes his winding-up speech, will he clarify the time allocated for the Bill’s Committee stage? In our view, two days will not be enough—the Scotland Bill had four days’ deliberation—but if the Under-Secretary is able to give guarantees that that time will be protected, we will be willing to concede on that. Will he also give an outline of the likely timetable for the Bill as it proceeds through its various stages?

We have heard some fantastic contributions to the debate from Members on both sides of the House. I particularly enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), in which he made a passionate case for the full devolution of corporation tax. I fear that my comments will be tame in comparison. I made similar comments in the Western Mail on Saturday while I was out in Bordeaux, only to be accused by the shadow Secretary of State for Wales of nationalist dogma. The hon. Member for Islwyn, who is not in the Chamber, might be in trouble with the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) after this debate.

After less than two decades of devolution in Wales, we have had to change the settlement four times—this Bill will be the fifth time. Every one of those changes was meant to settle the constitutional question for a generation, yet here we are, debating another Bill that, it is claimed, will settle the constitution for our lifetime. I fear that we yet again have another tinkering Bill which will be past its sell-by date before the ink dries. During the course of the previous Bill, Plaid Cymru, the party of Wales, endeavoured to strengthen it, as we will do during the course of this Bill. I am glad to see that some of our amendments, which were ruthlessly voted down last time, are reflected in provisions in this Bill, specifically the parts that allow the National Assembly to determine its own electoral system and give the National Assembly the right to change its name if it chooses. Surely since the last Assembly election, when one party had 50% of the seats on 30% of the vote, every true democrat must realise that we have to do something about the electoral system for the National Assembly.

On the question of the name, as far as I am concerned, now that the National Assembly can pass laws, it is a Parliament in its own right. However, I accept the arguments of some of my colleagues back home in the motherland that law-making bodies in Europe are known as assemblies, such as the Assemblée nationale in France.

I particularly welcome the Chancellor’s decision in the autumn statement to remove the need for a further referendum before the proposed income tax-setting arrangement is implemented. Referendums should be held only on a fundamental point of principle, as with next week’s vote on the UK’s membership of the European Union. Conversely, the 2011 Welsh referendum on a very opaque matter indicates the problems associated with holding a public vote on technical issues.

The principle of fiscal devolution from Westminster to Wales has already been conceded in the 2014 Act, with the devolution of minor taxes, stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy and landfill tax. Devolution of power is the settled will of the people of Wales, as is highlighted by a long list of opinion polls. Political parties just need to get on with it now and react to the growing demand for more powers for Wales, as opposed to hiding behind referendums. The only future referendum that should be held on the constitutional question in Wales is the referendum on Welsh independence, when the time comes.

The Bill is a step forward from the draft Bill, which was published last year by the then Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). That Bill included roll-back powers, which would have been completely unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, because they undermined the settlement overwhelmingly endorsed in the 2011 referendum.

Three new reservations have been added, including the Severn crossings. We will be pushing an amendment to repatriate the bridges during the Bill’s later stages and look forward to the support of Labour and Conservative Members. It is allegedly Labour Government policy in Wales that the bridges should come under the control of the Welsh Government. It is also the policy of the Conservatives in the National Assembly. In 2013, their transport spokesman said:

“Devolution of the crossings—and future use of the tolls—has the real potential to help hard-pressed motorists, provide significant investment in Welsh infrastructure and encourage economic growth”.

The hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies), who uttered those words while in the Assembly, was singing from my hymn sheet, and I am disappointed that he is not in the Chamber.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

Which of the three ends of the Severn bridges that are in England does the hon. Gentleman feel are subject to a right to be repatriated to Wales? After all, there is a geographical reality that should be recognised.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that point, which is always used by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—I am glad to see him in the Chamber, as we have debated this issue many times. However, the reality is that the Severn bridges are the two main supply links into the south Wales economy, so it is clearly in the interests of the Welsh Government to have control over them.

I always endeavour to be helpful in my politics, and when I look at the rate of constitutional change in the UK, it appears that the only way the British state can possibly survive is as a confederal arrangement between its constituent parts. The only reserved matters in that scenario should be those relating to currency, the Head of State, defence, welfare and foreign affairs, although the boat on welfare may have started sailing with the Scotland Act.

The necessity tests have been replaced by so-called justice impact assessments. In response to the Bill, my former academic master, Richard Wyn Jones, from the Welsh Governance Centre, said in the Western Mail:

“I’m afraid this unexpected addition to the Bill suggests the mindset that devised the necessity test is still alive and kicking in Whitehall.”

He went on to say:

“It clearly undermines the UK Government’s claim to respect the National Assembly as a mature democratic institution able to make its own laws without interference.”

He concluded by saying:

“Ultimately the Secretary of State would be able to override a piece of legislation passed by the democratically elected Assembly. It is a mindset which sees the Assembly as a second-class legislature. There is no similar provision at the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

Air passenger duty has been raised during the debate, and the fact that we are not proposing to devolve it has been criticised, although I think that that is right and proper. Silk made it clear that there is a need to devolve provisions for long-haul passengers, but there has been no consensus on that issue. I also ask what benefits such a measure would bring to north Wales in terms of the impact on the Welsh devolution financial settlement. At this time I think it is the right decision not to devolve air passenger duty, and I am happy to stand by that.

Many Members called for the list of reservations to be shorter, although it is important to point out that the list in the Scotland Act 1998 is not short either. It would, in my view, be impossible for the model of devolution that we are trying to create to have a two or three-page list; a long list will always be necessary. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the aim was to secure a positive working relationship between this place and the Assembly, and I think it important to emphasise that. I believe that those reservations can be dealt with positively, and that we can work in a way that will benefit the people of Wales.

The hon. Members for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and for Torfaen, my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and the hon. Member for Ceredigion highlighted the issue of the single legal jurisdiction. They made some positive comments about the Bill’s acknowledgement that there would be a body of Welsh law, but I think it imperative for us to understand the context of our decision.

We have consulted far and wide. We have consulted the legal profession in Wales, law colleges in Wales, legal departments in Wales and universities in Wales, and their clear response has been that it would be premature to move towards a separate legal jurisdiction. However, a working group is looking into the administrative processes involved in the development of a body of Welsh law, and I think it important that the Bill acknowledges the existence of Welsh legislation. We must try to develop a distinctive way of operating the administrative side of the legal system in Wales, rather than concentrating on the issue of a separate legal jurisdiction.

Some Members raised concerns about the justice impact assessments. I think my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear that the aim was not to prevent the Assembly from legislating, but to ensure that the impact of legislation was understood. The Welsh Assembly is already committed to looking at the impact of its legislation on the Welsh language and on equality issues, and I see nothing wrong with requiring it to look at the justice impact assessments as well. That, I think, is a proportionate request. It is a request that is acceded to by Westminster Departments when they legislate, and I think that it treats the Assembly as a mature body which is not only able to create law, but to understand the consequences of the development of that law.

I believe that when the aim of the Bill is clarified in Committee—if there is a need for such clarification—Members on both sides of the House will be assured that the justice impact assessment is not a necessity test. I should add that the article by Professor Richard Wyn Jones, which was quoted by numerous Members, showed a lack of understanding of the aims of the assessment, and, indeed, of who would be responsible for delivering and creating it. The responsibility will be passed on to the Assembly. It will be for the Assembly to develop justice impact assessments; there will be no dictation from Westminster.

Income tax is clearly a real issue for Conservative Members. In a powerful speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire expressed his concern about the changes, and the issue was also touched on by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). It has been suggested that the decision to omit the need for a referendum was in some way a betrayal of a manifesto commitment, but I take issue with that. There appear to be two versions of the Conservative manifesto, the Welsh version and the national version. Page 58 of the Welsh version, which I read, made clear that the promise could be questioned, because once a funding floor had been established, and we have delivered that funding floor, there would be an expectation—an expectation—that the Welsh Government would hold a referendum.

In my view, it is clear that the Welsh Government are prevaricating on whether they want income tax powers. I think it is absolutely clear to Conservative Members that provision for a tax settlement is essential, because the Bill is about clarity, accountability and responsibility for the Welsh Government. Yes, more powers are being devolved, but it is nevertheless essential for a degree of accountability to be passed on to the Welsh Government. I would argue that that accountability, which is understood by local councils and parish councils and by police and crime commissioners, is essential for good governance in Wales and for the Welsh Assembly. I would question whether this is indeed a breach of a manifesto commitment, but more importantly I would say the decision is justified in order to have a settlement which ensures that the people of Wales know that the Welsh Government and Assembly are responsible not just for spending in Wales but also for raising tax in Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Does the Minister not therefore agree that it would be far easier to achieve those aims of accountability, incentivisation and clarity if 100% of income tax powers were devolved, as well as achieving the non-detrimental fiscal framework which is key to underpinning the devolution of that tax?

[Guto Bebb]

Once again the hon. Gentleman is putting ideology ahead of practicality. There is a significant difference between the population that lies along the Welsh border with England and the population on the border with Scotland. We have to move very carefully. This is a proportionate settlement that ensures there is a degree of tax accountability. He is possibly pushing his luck on this, because that ideology is not supported by the people of Wales.

We are moving in the right direction. This Government have achieved a funding floor, whereby we guarantee that spending in Wales will never be less than 115% of spending in England. That guarantee was not forthcoming for 13 years of a Labour Government here in Westminster, and it has now been offered by this Government.

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I will start by talking about the European Union, as many Members have during the debate. I will vote yes for a number of reasons. In a previous life I was an international historian in the international politics department at Aberystwyth, a world-renowned department in our country. It was set up in the aftermath of the first world war, following a generous donation of £20,000 by the great industrialist David Davies Llandinam to honour the dead and maimed students of the university. Davies was motivated—I will quote the university’s website, because I could not put it better myself—

“by a global vision, forged in the fires of war, aimed at repairing the shattered family of nations and, more ambitiously, to redeem the claims of men and women in a great global commonwealth”.

My academic speciality was both world wars and the cold war. No one should ever question the vital role played by greater economic co-operation on the continent, and by the European Union, in forging lasting security, prosperity and peace.

I will vote to remain also because Wales is a net beneficiary of EU support, to the tune of £4 billion by 2020 if match funding is added. To its credit, the EU has redistributive mechanisms whereby resources and investment are aimed at the poorest geographical areas—mechanisms sadly lacking in the UK, which I suggest is a matter of shame for Unionists. I have yet to see a contingency plan from the UK for what would happen if they oversaw a calamitous exit from the EU. In contrast to the EU’s mechanisms, the UK fails to allocate spending based on need and instead ploughs its infrastructure investment into already vastly wealthy areas at the expense of those desperately in need of it.

UK membership of the EU has also played an important part in driving social justice, be it in protecting people from discrimination based on age, sex, race, religion or disability, in maternity and parental leave entitlements, or in the right to paid holidays and working hours limited to 48 hours a week.

As a net exporter, the Welsh economy benefits hugely from the single market and its 500 million consumers. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) gave an important statistic about the importance of export trade to the Welsh economy.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate case for Wales remaining in the European Union. However, can he reconcile that with the fact that his party held street stalls in my constituency to argue that the European Union, in a trade deal with America, would sell our NHS? That is hardly a case for staying in.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I was not going to mention the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, but the hon. Gentleman has led me to it. He knows that there are genuine concerns about how TTIP could impact on public services, and about the privatisation of public services. That is one of my concerns about the European Union—I am not an unconditional supporter because it has fostered those liberalising policies that successive Westminster Governments have introduced for our public services. The fear is that TTIP could be a Trojan horse for promoting those liberalising polices even further, especially in public services. That is why I believe that the Welsh Government should have a veto on whether the UK Government sign up to TTIP. I am also somewhat sceptical about the European Union because of its treatment of the Greek people in their hour of need recently.

Although I will vote to remain, I believe that the Prime Minister’s current tactics are dangerous and ill judged. Project Fear 2, and the use of all the assets of the state to ramp up risk and anxiety, may prove to be a short-term success in securing a vote to remain in June. However, a gaping wound will be created when people feel that they have been cheated and bullied. As we see in Scotland following Project Fear 1, the battle might be won from a Unionist perspective, but ultimately the war will be lost. If the UK Government’s position is to settle the European question, they need to fight a positive campaign, and as I have outlined, there are numerous things that they could say.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to delay the introduction of the Wales Bill following pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft measure. I am pleased that the Secretary of State seems to have agreed to remove the necessity tests from the Bill. I hope that he has taken note of the excellent work in the Cardiff University/University College London report, which stresses that the model itself makes the necessity tests unworkable, rather than the choice of words, “necessary” or otherwise.

I also welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has agreed to shorten the list of reservations significantly. However, as always, the proof of the pudding will be in the detail of the Bill when it is published. He will know from the pre-legislative scrutiny that two reservations in particular make the Bill unworkable—the reservations of the criminal law and private law mechanisms. While I am encouraged by his promise to shorten the list, his reluctance to accept the evidence on the need for a distinct jurisdiction leads me to believe that he will not remove criminal law and private law from the list.

Indeed, the Welsh Affairs Committee, which has a Tory majority and is chaired by one of the most prominent anti-devolution MPs, accepted that creating a distinct legal jurisdiction would

“provide a solution to issues associated with the reservation of civil and criminal law and necessity clauses.”

When redrafting the Bill, and the list of reservations in particular, the Secretary of State should ensure that each and every reservation is individually justified. I believe that the Secretary of State is serious about creating a long-lasting devolution settlement and I share his ambition, but unless he fights against his devo-sceptic fringes, he will just be yet another Secretary of State for Wales who creates yet another failed devolution settlement.

The context of the rewriting of the Bill has also been changed by the decision to cut more than a quarter of Welsh MPs. If the UK Government want to make those cuts to Wales’s representation, they must give the National Assembly the same powers as the Scottish Parliament—the number of Scottish MPs was cut following transfer of powers. That means full transfer of responsibility over energy and the Crown Estate, full income tax powers, transfer of policing and criminal justice, the legal system, transport, air passenger duty, and the rest of the provisions in the Scotland Act. The Government cannot expect those responsibilities to remain with the UK Government and Westminster with only 29 Welsh MPs. That would create a gaping democratic deficit.

I want to turn my attention to one economic project in Wales about which I have not had the opportunity to comment in any great detail to date—the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Despite Wales being one of the most advantageous locations in Europe for renewable energy, just 10.1% of our electricity is generated from renewable sources. That compares with 32% in Scotland and 14.9% for the UK as a whole. Despite Wales being home to the second highest tidal range in the world, and 1,200 km of coastline, we are lagging behind on tidal technology. I understand concerns about the proposed financing model. Proponents of the contract for difference strike price model argue that the Swansea lagoon is nowhere near as big as the planned Cardiff and Colwyn bay lagoons, and that therefore the strike price on a per megawatt basis seems high. However, it must be considered as a long-term investment that will eventually deliver multiple lagoons across the UK.

Funding green energy through a CFD effectively passes the cost of upfront investment on to the consumer, who inevitably will see their bills go up. If I were in the shoes of the Secretary of State, I would make the case that the Treasury should invest in the project by bringing it on to the books directly, as happens for transport infrastructure such as HS2 in England. Raising money on the bond markets has never been cheaper, with 50-year bonds at a negative rate and 10-year bonds at less than 1.5%. Those rates are available only to the Government and not the private sector. Using an old-school financing method—direct public investment—as opposed to an ultimately far more costly financing scheme such as CFD, will be far cheaper in the end for the public, and the UK Government should be honest with the people of Wales about that.

The Treasury will be aware of my early-day motion tabled earlier this week, which calls for a specific Welsh public sector pooled pension fund. Instead of letting the pension assets of Welsh public sector workers be pillaged by a super pooled asset fund based in England, why is the Wales Office not ensuring that Welsh assets are pooled at a Welsh level to invest in Welsh infrastructure such as the lagoon? I recognise, however, that that model would require a CFD. Confidence is the magic trick in any economic policy, and moving forward quickly on the proposed lagoon will be a massive confidence boost for the south and west of our country, stimulating further economic investment and growth.

Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I last spoke on this issue in February 2014, and I started out, as I will now, by noting that Wales is a proud exporting nation, despite recent setbacks. Wales outperforms the other component parts of the UK, and according to HMRC statistics we have a trade balance of £5.86 billion based on 2014 figures. By contrast, England has a deficit of £125.6 billion.

Despite recent setbacks in Welsh exporting figures, the potential of a trade deal for Wales is hugely significant, but it should not come at any price. The cost should certainly not be the destruction of public services or environmental and safety standards, or the subversion of public justice to one law for corporations and one law for everybody else. I should state from the outset that I am in favour of further developing trade links between the EU, which is already the world’s largest trading bloc, and the United States. However, I still have many reservations about the proposed TTIP, despite the recent attempts by the European Commission to allay those concerns by proposing alternatives.

It is a great irony that the UK Government are dead set on ploughing ahead with TTIP while at the same time jeopardising the future of Wales and the UK within the EU with a referendum conceded in panic by the Prime Minister when UKIP were hot on the Tories’ tails. I see that the renegotiation is not going as well as he planned and I suspect that the charade of Tory unity on this issue will disappear very rapidly as the referendum approaches.

[Guto Bebb]

Is the hon. Gentleman not concerned that the attacks on TTIP, which is being negotiated by the European Union, are in effect undermining our relationship with the European Union? Is it not the case, therefore, that some of these outspoken attacks are more damaging to the position that he supports, which is continued Welsh membership of the European Union?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that half-clever intervention. The biggest danger to our relationship with the EU is Tory policy on the needless referendum that we will be having in the next year.

When I spoke on TTIP 22 months ago, I set out many of the concerns that I and my party, Plaid Cymru, had regarding the proposal as it stood then. I set out our concerns about the highly controversial ISDS as well as the potential for the agreement to allow for the privatisation of public services despite the public’s desire to keep those services in public hands, not to mention the concerns over lowering environmental and safety standards through so-called harmonisation.

The economic benefits of TTIP are contested. A study for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills estimates that the gains for the UK would be £4 billion to £10 billion annually by 2027. However, the average tariffs on trade between the EU and the US are already relatively low. Therefore, many of the proposals within TTIP and much of the negotiation are centred on non-tariff barriers to trade, such as product regulation and standards, which would need to be harmonised, and measures to protect the rights of investors.

Dairy Industry

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Diolch, Mrs Riordan. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing this debate. I associate myself with many of his comments.

The Welsh dairy industry contributes about 10% of the milk produced in the UK, and Carmarthenshire is one of the places in Europe most ideally suited to producing milk, due to the plentiful resources of fresh grass. However, the long-term trends in the industry have not been particularly good. Since 1999, the number of dairy producers in Wales has fallen by 51.3%.

Recently, the price of milk has fallen below 27p a litre, with the cost of production being higher than that. First Milk has announced that it will cut its prices even further in December. In the Baltic states, the price of milk is down to 13p a litre; that shows the fall in milk prices throughout the EU and the world. Milk is a highly nutritious product and a vital component of any healthy diet, but in the supermarkets it is cheaper than water, so something is going wrong somewhere.

During the recess, I visited a local farm, Bremenda Uchaf at Llanarthney, in the middle of the Towy valley, with the Farmers Union of Wales to discuss the emerging situation in the dairy industry. As I said recently during Welsh questions, the most recent crisis has been caused by two main factors: another supermarket price war, in which dairy foods and milk in particular bear the brunt as they are gateway products; and reprisal Russian sanctions on EU food products. President Putin introduced a one-year ban in August, and CNN reported that it is worth £1.5 billion to the EU dairy sector. Demand for milk and other products, such as beef, has fallen significantly and over-supply in domestic and EU markets has depressed prices. I read in The Guardian today that the situation in the eastern part of Ukraine is still highly volatile, so the sanctions may remain in place.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

On the impact of sanctions from Russia, does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Government should act in the same way as the Polish Government, for example, who have encouraged people there to eat apples to stand up to Putin? Should we not encourage people to eat Welsh cheese to stand up to Putin?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I would certainly encourage people in Wales to eat Welsh cheese and to drink as much Welsh milk as possible. My daughter is on a pint a day, so I am doing my bit for the cause.

The industry also faces other long-term challenges, in particular the end of milk quotas next year. Competitors in Ireland are preparing for this by increasing milk production, and unless there are strategies in place to help Welsh farmers, we could have a long period of milk price instability. I fear that there is a lack of political direction at Welsh Government level. In a recent evidence session of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the new Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs seemed to indicate to me that the current difficulties were likely to be short-term. I invite her to reconsider her position and to put in place interventionist measures to help the industry before we face another serious crisis, like the one we faced a few years ago.

I want to list a series of interventions that are needed, from the Department but primarily from the Welsh Government. We must ensure that all that can be done is done, and that no one in the supply chain is using the current downward price trend as a convenient excuse to make additional cuts to farm-gate prices. We need retailers who use milk as a loss leader to ensure that they fund those deals from their own profit margins and not from the pockets of farmers. It is vital that those retailers put transparent pricing mechanisms in place and ensure that suppliers are compliant with the voluntary code.

Put simply, milk being sold cheaply devalues the product in the eyes of consumers, and this could have long-term negative ramifications for the sector as a whole. It is extremely worrying to every dairy farmer to see milk being used as a battleground between retailers.

Housing Benefit (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 1st May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards]

I did not read that report, but it makes a point about the unbalanced nature of economic growth across Britain. I am referring to the rising housing benefit bill in the UK context. The statistics I have cited do not refer to Welsh house prices in particular.

The Committee’s report found that Wales is being hit hardest by the lack of single social properties in the social rented sector. Wales is therefore being hit by a policy designed to address the public expenditure implications of the dysfunctional London economy. As I have consistently argued, we need a range of reforms. Before becoming an MP, I was heavily influenced by the reforms in the Republic of Ireland. I used to be a policy officer for the citizens advice movement in Wales, and some of these issues were prevalent then. The 2004 reforms in the Republic of Ireland were welcome. The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 achieved a number of objectives. First, it set up a private residential tenancies board. Secondly, it regulated the private rented sector, with an extension of tenancies to a more European model of longer-term tenancies. Defined rights and obligations were provided for both tenants and landlords, and access was provided to an inexpensive dispute resolution system. The bonds that individuals who rent often have to pay were safeguarded—unfortunately, on too many occasions people lose those bonds—and rents were capped, which is a policy that exists across the world. There are rent caps in New York, the home of global capitalism, so it is difficult to define them as some sort of socialist trap.

[Guto Bebb]

I do think that rent caps are a socialist trap. The fact that they are supported by the Committee’s Labour members, Liberal member and Plaid member is unfortunate because, in Wales, many people who have invested in buy-to-let properties have done so because of the previous Labour Government’s anti-pension policies. For many of those people, their private rented property is their pension provision. I find the attack on those individuals, who are trying to take care of their own situation in retirement, unfortunate to say the least.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The point I am trying to make is that if the Government are serious about bringing down the housing benefit bill, the only way to do it is to cap the cost of rents in the private rented sector. That is what all the OBR projections indicate. It is interesting that the Select Committee Chair referred to the evidence of the TaxPayers Alliance. When I gave the alliance a choice of either reducing the housing benefit bill or preserving free markets, it said that it preferred preserving free markets, which is more important to the TaxPayers Alliance than the Government’s tax liabilities. Perhaps it should change its name to the Free Market Alliance.

[Guto Bebb]

I think it has already been accepted in this debate that there is a link between private sector provision of housing and social sector provision of housing. Would rent controls result in any increase in private sector provision of social housing? If not, how will it help anyone looking for rented housing in Wales?

[Jonathan Edwards]

My point is that the OBR’s figures indicate that the Government will not achieve their objectives with the bedroom tax. If the objective is to bring down the housing benefit bill, the only way to do that is via rent control in the private rented sector. I welcome the fact that the leader of the Labour party made a case overnight for some of the reforms for which I have been making a case for a number of years. Rent caps would drive down artificially high rental costs, and they would also curb boom and bust property speculation, which is a cycle we have seen far too often in the UK economy in recent decades. Rent caps would also help working people to remain in the cities, rather than being forced out, as they are in inner London. They would also stop the current policy’s social cleansing, through which people are forced to move from where they have lived for many years.

[Mr Clive Betts in the Chair]

We also need to consider supply issues, which many Members have highlighted. The recovery of the 1930s following the great depression was largely driven by a massive public housing building programme. Rents paid for public housing provide a steady stream of revenue, so it is an ideal vehicle for drawing down private sector funds to deliver economic growth and address some of the social problems that we face.

I will now quickly return to the local indicators in Carmarthenshire, and I will finish on this point. Applications for discretionary housing payments have rocketed in south-west Wales. Between 2012-13 and 2013-14, the budget increased by 64% in Carmarthenshire, by 106% in Pembrokeshire and by 118% in Swansea. There were only 327 discretionary housing application payments in Carmarthenshire in 2012-13, but between April and May 2013 there were 534 applications. That is a 63% increase in the first two months of that year, compared with the whole of the previous year.

Nearly 2,000 people have had changes to their housing benefit entitlements in Carmarthenshire since this policy was introduced. As I mentioned, this policy only makes savings if people stay and pay.

I finish on a point made by my colleague, the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). He mentioned the work of Paul James, a Plaid Cymru councillor for Llanbadarn Fawr, a veteran of the UK Army and also a servant of the French Foreign Legion, so he is not a man to be messed about with—[Interruption.] He has the Minister’s number! He is upset about the impact of the bedroom tax on veterans and their families, who were under the impression that veterans would be exempt full stop from it. Yet it appears that only people on active service are exempt. If that is the case, obviously, military personnel from Wales in barracks or in training would be outside Wales and not exempt, because our regiments are not held domestically. Our servicemen are not home-based; they go to barracks in England. Yet their families are being hit by the bedroom tax. The Minister must look at that. I should be grateful to hear his remarks at the end of the debate.

Fairness and Inequality

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

It is not for me to correct the hon. Gentleman, but I am not sure whether the proposals were rejected by the Welsh Government. They were certainly rejected by the Labour Front-Bench team in Westminster—a significant difference. Perhaps Labour Members can enlighten us on whether there is a lack of trust between the Westminster team and the Assembly team.

The motion is wrong-headed in many ways, but its key failure is highlighted in the final sentence, which

“calls on the Government to halt its further spending and welfare cuts”.

That tells us that the motion is not serious. It talks about the importance of creating equality and opportunities and supporting people and communities, yet it does not recognise that to have a successful, sustainable economy we cannot carry on borrowing at rates that are unsustainable in the long term. There is nothing moral, fair or reasonable about asking our children and grandchildren to pay for our mistakes. We have a responsibility to future generations not to saddle them with unsustainable debts. We have an ageing population and a demographic problem, nowhere more so than in parts of north Wales that I represent. We face a real challenge to care for the elderly and to ensure that we have a fair pension system. Future generations will have to meet those obligations. In asking them also to meet our inability to take hard decisions, the motion is not a serious one, and it deserves to be rejected.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House what the debt to GDP ratio is now—it has risen under this Government, of course—and what it was in 1947, when the NHS was created?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman has made this point on numerous occasions. He is absolutely correct to say that the level of debt has increased under this Government, but for a party that says the level of debt should have increased at an even faster pace, it is hardly reasonable to argue that this Government have therefore failed. It should also be pointed out that we have an NHS that is, rightly, much more expensive and costly than it was in 1948, so that is a false analogy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I reject the hon. Gentleman’s argument. To have more equality, we need more jobs and economic opportunities. The hon. Gentleman argues that that would happen with more Government spending as a proportion of the economy. If that was the case, then Wales would be, by a long stretch, the most successful part of the United Kingdom, because there is no part of the UK more dependent on the public purse. The dependency on public spending in Wales has led to failure not over the past three or four years, but over a 15 to 20-year period. It has not led to economic growth or prosperity, and it has not led to economic opportunities. Indeed, the very reverse is true: the size of the state in Wales is one of the reasons why the rebuilding job being undertaken by the Westminster Government is so important. In a Welsh context, we have created an economy that is unbalanced and has not created the variety of jobs needed to support our young people and ensure that we have an equal society. I argue very strongly that anybody who says that the answer to all economic issues in a Welsh context is more public spending is simply wrong.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I will try to make a bit of progress.

The key point to remember is that those who now claim that the economic recovery has been too slow in coming are the exact same people who claimed that unemployment would increase dramatically because of the decisions taken in 2010. They are often the same voices who argued that there could be no growth without public spending, yet in Wales and in the whole of the UK we are seeing a vast increase in private sector employment. We have 1.5 million new private sector jobs, a ratio of almost 4:1 in comparison with the loss of jobs in the public sector. Wales is not an exception. Time and again when this is debated in the Welsh media, we hear people saying that the economic recovery is happening in London and the south-east. That is simply not reflected in the facts. In Wales, unemployment is falling and employment rates are increasing.

Anyone who is genuine about the opportunities necessary to reduce inequality would welcome the jobs that are being created. What we often hear from the parties on the Opposition Benches, however, is a complaint about the type of jobs being created: that they are not proper jobs and not the type of jobs we should be proud of. That is such a demeaning comment to make to people going out of their way to try to earn their living. I wonder how someone working in a Tesco or an Asda in my constituency feels when they hear a member of the Labour party demeaning a job as nothing more than shelf stacking. Such comments from a party that claims to represent labour are utterly disgraceful. I have made this point to the House previously and I will make it again.

One of the most moving things I have done as an MP was to visit a Tesco partnership store in Toxteth, in Liverpool. I can tell Members that a visit from a Conservative MP from north Wales is not something that happens very often at any store in Liverpool. The Tesco store in Toxteth was the largest inward investment into Toxteth since the riots in 1982. It was Tesco that undertook that investment. Half the staff employed at that store had been unemployed long term—for more than 18 months. The retention rate was more than 94% and the pride they showed in the fact that they were now working for a living was moving—there is no other way of describing it. I met one lady who ran the bakery section and asked whether she would ever want to move on. Her response was, “I’d have to be taken out of here in a box. It has given me my life back.”

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is mixing up the question of fiscal changes, which is what we are discussing, with the issue he raises about GP surgeries. The fact that Northern Ireland has an uncompetitive tax regime compared with that of the Republic of Ireland is a huge political issue, and it is also well known that the republican factions in Northern Ireland have financed themselves through smuggling operations because of the different rates of duty on petrol.

I do not want to overstate this issue, but we should take it seriously. I am sure that we can successfully address it, and the Silk commission has been set up precisely to examine such matters. Members of Plaid Cymru often refer to the Holtham report as a document that is beyond criticism, and it highlights this issue in some detail. I think the Silk commission needs to look into it and come to a conclusion.

On fiscal responsibility, I was intrigued by an article in today’s edition of The Western Mail. I do not read The Western Mail often—after all, I am a north Walian, and we tend to read the Daily Post up in north Wales—but in that article it appears that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said that he did not support fully devolving fiscal responsibility and tax-raising powers to Wales at this point in time, as he thinks that would be inappropriate.

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

[Guto Bebb]

I agree with that; I think it would be inappropriate. We know that there is a huge funding gap between the amount of money raised in taxes in Wales and the public expenditure in Wales. I would therefore ask the hon. Gentleman whether he disowns the policy of his party, which is to call for independence—a policy that I am pleased to say the party never advocated when I was a member of it.

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

[Guto Bebb]

The question of fiscal responsibility does raise issues, therefore. [Interruption.] I was under the impression that honesty in this Chamber was appreciated. There are issues that we need to consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I did not notice that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr was seeking to intervene. Earlier, I spoke with him in the Tea Room and told him I would be making that comment, and I would be delighted to take an intervention from him.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in giving way. As a former Member of my party, he will know that independence for our country is an aspiration, but that does not mean that we want it tomorrow. One reason for gradually devolving fiscal powers is to empower our economy to be strong enough to achieve that ambition.

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting clarification, which is contradicted somewhat by an article by one of the Plaid Cymru leadership contenders that appeared in the Daily Post last week, and in which it was stated that the constitutional aspiration of the party of Wales was clear. It was not a very clear statement, I thought.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I am not sure whether the most significant change would have to be in income tax. There is an argument for changing the rates of employers’ national insurance contributions, which could be beneficial from a Welsh economic perspective. Whether the changes require a referendum depends on the range and the outcome of the Silk commission. I would not want to commit myself on that at this point in time.

The concept of fiscal responsibility is something that everybody in Wales should welcome. I find it difficult to understand how anybody in this Chamber who believes that the Welsh Assembly should have a degree of accountability to the people of Wales can be opposed to the concept of fiscal responsibility. I look forward to the findings of the Silk commission on part I. I believe that they will contribute to the debate. It is crucial that all stakeholders in Wales contribute to this debate, because otherwise we will end up with a discussion not dissimilar to what the hon. Member for Monmouth described.

Finally, part II deals with constitutional changes and what further boundaries we need to consider, beyond the changes that have already been made. It is important to state that we are talking about boundaries within policy areas, not physical boundaries. Several individuals I know who live in Oswestry are slightly concerned about the comment that we are looking to change the boundaries. Personally, I would be delighted to welcome back Croesoswallt—or Oswestry—to Wales, but I do not think that that is the intention of the Silk commission.

When we talk about boundaries, we are talking about whether there are aspects of the relationship between the responsibilities of the Assembly and those of Westminster that we need to look at again. As has been said, matters such as transport are not fully devolved. That may be a good or a bad thing, but the main arteries going in and out of north Wales and south Wales go from east to west. Therefore, if there were improvements to the A55 in Flintshire they would be wasted unless there were improvements to the M56 in Cheshire. There are clearly transport issues that need to be examined. We have also spoken about the fact that health is not fully devolved.

Finally, we need clarification on energy policy. The opportunity for economic and employment growth in Wales as a result of large-scale energy projects is something that we should all welcome. However, there is confusion over whether permission for such projects is granted by the Welsh Assembly or Westminster. Businesses looking to invest in hydro, wind power or tidal power need clarity about where the permission comes from and where the responsibility lies. That would be beneficial to the Welsh economy. I sincerely hope that that will be considered as the Silk commission moves on to part II.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again; he is being extremely generous. He will be aware that his party and the Lib Dems fought the National Assembly election in May on the basis that they would extend energy consenting powers. Does he agree that it is a disgrace that the UK Government down here are ignoring those pledges that were made to the people of Wales less than six months ago?

[Guto Bebb]

I again thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. This is a difficult subject. There is clearly a need for clarity for the business community. Having said that, I would be extremely concerned if I was a resident of Anglesey who supported the new nuclear power station and the issue was completely devolved to the Welsh Assembly, which has a pathological hatred of anything nuclear. Clearly this is an issue that needs to be examined. The point that I am making is that the Silk commission will allow us the opportunity to consider this subject in detail.

Ultimately, what we do have—this is probably why the shadow Secretary of State was so churlish in his response to the announcement of the Silk commission—is a coalition Government who are willing to consult on a cross-party and non-party basis, and to talk to the people of Wales about the way in which Wales should be governed in the future. The Silk commission is being established to try to create real accountability for the Welsh Assembly, and in particular, it is examining the way in which some devolved areas need to be considered again to ensure that we have a settlement that works for Wales. I am astounded that any Opposition Members would oppose a consultation process.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention, and the hon. Gentleman leads me on to my next point, which is about one of the key recommendations of the Welsh Affairs Committee report. I would like the Government, as part of the Bill—and the future funding formula for S4C, which was announced yesterday—to state clearly that cuts will be comparable to those for other public service broadcasters. That would appease many in Wales.

The Select Committee report also called on the UK Government to safeguard the funding for the channel beyond 2014-15. We argued that without long-term certainty of funding, the channel would not be able to plan its future commissioning strategy. We called for a long-term funding formula enacted in primary legislation. I therefore welcome the written statement yesterday as a positive step forward. The devil will be in the detail, but my colleagues and I look forward to working constructively to build on yesterday’s announcement, which in our view would have to be based on some sort of calculation inflation.

As a party we have major concerns that S4C will mostly be dependent on funding via the licence fee. Our preference would be for a direct funding stream. If the Department is intent on funding S4C via the BBC, the licence fee should be top-sliced. As my right hon. friend Lord Wigley said during the passage of the Bill in the other place:

“He who pays the piper calls the tune.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 March 2011; Vol. 726, c. 1005.]

If S4C does not have total control over its own budget, its financial independence will be shot to pieces.

Ministers might be aware that the Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union, the National Union of Journalists, the Writers Guild of Great Britain, Equity, the Musicians Union, and Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg have all jointly called for the resources available to S4C to be increased by raising a levy on private broadcasters, drawing on best practice in other countries.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman mentions the need for funding to be raised from other broadcasters. Does he accept that the Select Committee report indicated that the Welsh Assembly could play a part? The Welsh Assembly claims that it wants the channel to be accountable to it, yet it is not willing to put any money into the pot.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention and I look forward to the day when broadcasting is devolved to the Welsh Government. In light of events of recent weeks, I expected support from across the House for the innovative idea of a levy on private broadcasters to support public service broadcasting in the UK. I hope Ministers are actively pursuing the idea.

That brings me to operational independence. The Committee called for assurances that operationally there would be no role for the BBC in the day-to-day management of S4C. I for one cannot see how anyone can claim that S4C is an independent broadcaster if it has personnel from another channel running its day-to-day affairs. I hope the Department will make a clear statement on the issue as the Bill progresses.

The ability of a public service broadcaster to hold Government to account is essential if it is to retain the confidence of its audience. Therefore we view the inclusion of S4C in schedule 3 as particularly worrying. The schedule enables the Department to make significant changes to the management and organisation of S4C without recourse to primary legislation.

I shall deal briefly with other consequences of the Bill for Wales. Much of the rest of the Bill refers to powers over environmental bodies being devolved to Wales. These bodies are listed in clause 13 as being the Welsh devolved functions of the Countryside Council for Wales, the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commissioners and Welsh flood and coastal committees. I seek clarification of clause 18 and the requirement of consent from UK Ministers. How is this to be operated, and in what situations do Ministers expect this to take place? I am also confused by the reference to the Secretary of State in clause 20(11). Does this mean that any order made by Welsh Ministers will be subject to a veto by the Houses of Parliament? That would clearly go against the result of the referendum in March. We will test these clauses in greater detail in Committee.

Finally, on consumer advocacy in Wales, the Bill proposes that Consumer Focus be abolished and its functions transferred to Citizens Advice in Wales and England. There is broad support for distinct consumer advocacy for Wales. There seems to be strong support among key stakeholders for advice and advocacy in Wales being brought under one body. I am glad that the UK Government have stated that they are open to making different provisions for Wales and Scotland following discussions with the devolved Administrations. I understand that current consumer bodies such as the CAB movement in Wales are adapting their governance structures in light of anticipated changes, and I urge the Department to work closely with Welsh Government Ministers and stakeholders to develop a solution that is client focused and best able to respond to the needs of the Welsh people.

Housing Revenue Account Subsidy (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

May I begin, Mrs Brooke, by saying that it is a pleasure and an honour to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon?

The topic of my debate is the housing revenue account subsidy scheme, and it aims to highlight one of the great injustices of public housing policy in Wales during the last 20 years. That policy has led to a reported £2 billion in cash terms—not taking into account inflation—of the rents of some of the poorest people in Wales being returned to the Treasury. It has also led to chronic under-investment in the Welsh public housing stock, which is among the poorest and of the worst standard in Europe, with the associated social and health implications. It has deprived our communities of a significant cash investment. Furthermore, it has driven the stock transfer agenda.

With the UK Department for Communities and Local Government scrapping the housing revenue account subsidy scheme for England in September—a decision that we in Plaid Cymru welcome wholeheartedly—there can be no justification for Welsh local authorities having to continue paying around £100 million per annum to the Treasury.

As far as Wales is concerned, the story of the housing revenue account subsidy scheme is one of great incompetence by both Labour and Tory politicians, who have miserably failed some of the poorest people in Wales. Perhaps that is not surprising, as I am reliably informed that only a very few individuals understand the full complexity of the scheme.

As part of the then Conservative Government’s relentless attack on public housing, the Local Government and Housing Act of 1989 led to the confiscation by the Treasury of a large part of the rents paid by tenants. The complication of the new arrangements was hardly helped by those arrangements being labelled as a “subsidy”. My understanding of the word is that “subsidy” should mean some sort of financial benefit, but that was certainly not the case in this instance.

The effect of the 1989 Act was to undermine the attractiveness of public housing by running down its quality, as investment was redirected from local communities. Rents in Wales were lower than those in England—they still remain lower now—and that led to less revenue in general. The quality of housing in Wales is also generally poorer. However, under the terms of the Act, local authorities were forced to return any surplus from expected rent, after operational and maintenance costs were met, to the Treasury, rather than investing those moneys in the housing stock. That had the bizarre effect of promoting the stock transfer of public housing, which is a theme I will return to later.

Perhaps the use of the word “subsidy” comes from the effect of the new arrangements, which meant that those council tenants who were able to pay their rents were, via the new funding mechanism, paying for the housing benefit entitlements of others. Of course, that did not apply to private rented sector tenants or to tenants of registered social landlords.

With HRA payments being used to fund housing benefit, the greater the money that the Treasury could accumulate via the scheme, the less it needed to pay out directly in benefits. Indeed, the 1989 Act allowed UK Government Ministers to set the expected level of rent income from each local authority, as well as the expected level of expenditure on maintenance and management of their homes.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

First, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. On that specific point, it is also worth pointing out that the decision in 1989 to introduce those changes also meant that there was a more equal distribution of rents among the local authorities in Wales. Indeed, there was a cap on the increase in rents for local authority housing at that time.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes an honourable point, but I am trying to point out the perverse effects of the 1989 Act and I am sure that he will give me some time to do so.

As I was saying, the 1989 Act allowed UK Government Ministers to set the expected level of rent income and the expected levels of expenditure on maintenance and management of the local authority homes. The policy motive of the UK Government was to drive up council rents while decreasing expenditure on housing, in order to increase the differential and gain maximum financial advantage from the new arrangements. As a result, the quality of publicly owned housing stock in Wales significantly worsened.

The then Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Walker, was guilty of a dereliction of duty of the greatest scale, as Wales was included under the terms of the new arrangements while the Secretary of State for Scotland, Michael Forsyth, refused to sign the Scottish clause, meaning that Scotland was exempted from the 1989 Act. Considering that housing benefit is a UK function, there was no reason at all why Scotland should have been excluded and Wales included, apart from the ineptitude of the Wales Office and its Conservative occupants—if the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) will forgive me for saying so.

New Labour being new Labour, it continued the policies of the previous Tory Government on public housing for the first three years after the 1997 election. In 2000, however, following a backlash among local authorities, the UK Government introduced proposals to amend the scheme without legislation. To end the deduction of rents from local authorities, the Treasury introduced in each housing revenue account an amount for spending on the renovation of properties. That new budget line was called the major repairs allowance and it was set at a level to ensure that local authority expenditure exceeded rental income, with the immediate effect of halting the Treasury’s rent grab.

The increase in funding brought about by the MRA for England was from UK Government sources and the UK taxpayer, and hence a Welsh equivalent should have been introduced by increasing the block grant by the Barnett formula. However, and critically, those new changes were only applied to England. In what has been described as “the year of the great mistake” by Paul Griffiths, a former Labour Welsh Government special adviser, in an excellent Bevan Foundation article, for some reason the Treasury again decided to make Wales a special case and Labour, which was in control of the Welsh Government, totally missed the significance of the changes applied to the HRA in England. As a result, since devolution, Wales has lost a further £1 billion, with an average of around £100 million per annum being siphoned off from council rents in Wales.

It is true that the Welsh Government could have made a unilateral decision and left that money with the councils, but as devolution guidance notes insist that any policy decision must be neutral in its impact upon the Treasury that would have meant that the Welsh Assembly Government had to find a further £100 million from its already underfunded Budget to give to the Treasury. Therefore, that is a change that can be made only with Treasury consent.

We in Plaid Cymru continuously make the case that Wales is ill-served by the UK Government. The Barnett formula continues to underfund Wales to the tune of £300 million per annum. We welcome the announcement of a review of the formula, which will take place shortly, although for the life of me I cannot see why that review has to take place after the referendum. However, given its attitude on Barnett and other issues, it is no surprise to us that the Treasury would consider Wales as an afterthought in relation to the introduction of the MRA in England in 2000.

The gross incompetence of the Welsh Government of the time is less easy to understand. Quite how successive Welsh Ministers and Welsh civil servants have failed to challenge the inequity of the situation is beyond me. With a Labour-controlled Welsh Government more concerned with placating their London masters, it is hardly surprising that the people of Wales are being let down so badly. Indeed, it has taken a Plaid Cymru Housing Minister to put this issue on the agenda at all. In short, the Treasury, under Labour control, threw a hospital pass to the Welsh Government in 2000, with a tragic £1 billion consequence for some of the poorest communities in my country.

In 2004, the Welsh Assembly Government created its own MRA out of its own funds, which further confused the issue. It meant that around £100 million was diverted from other areas of devolved responsibility each year, when the right course of action was to demand what was rightfully Wales’s from the Treasury. Therefore, despite the introduction of the Welsh Government-sponsored MRA, the Treasury continued to rake in their £100 million per annum from the HRA scheme in Wales.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the direct consequences of the HRA scheme has been to make the sale of publicly owned housing far more attractive, either under the terms of the right to buy or by the wholesale selling off of stock to registered social landlords, because housing associations are not covered by the scheme and are free to spend this money as they see fit on improving housing stock.

To date, the local authorities of Bridgend, Ceredigion, Merthyr, Newport, Monmouthshire, Rhondda Cynon Taff, Gwynedd, Torfaen and Conwy—the local authority of the hon. Member for Aberconwy—have all transferred their stock to housing associations, with many more local authorities seeking to follow the same path, due to their inability to access funds to help them to meet the Welsh housing quality standards set for 2012.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

On that specific point, it is interesting to note that some local authorities in Wales have identified the issue and embarked upon stock transfer as a means by which they can invest in repairing the properties that they hold. Indeed, it is very interesting that Gwynedd council, which is actually controlled by Plaid Cymru, has also followed that procedure. However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will concur that it is interesting how often local opposition to such a move has been led by Labour politicians. In view of how the Labour Government in Wales failed completely in 2000 to address that issue, is it not surprising that local Labour politicians have been so opposed to those stock transfers?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. It is a shame there are no Labour Members here to debate that issue with us. Of course, he and I have divergent views on stock transfer. I will return to the situation in my home county of Carmarthenshire later.

[Guto Bebb]

My understanding is that Plaid Cymru party members are extremely supportive of the stock transfer undertaken in Gwynedd. In the county of Conwy, which I have the pleasure of representing, it has been deemed a great success, even though Labour party members opposed the decision.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point. To be honest, there is a debate within the party about the merits of stock transfer. I, for one, am not as persuaded as some of my colleagues in the north of our great country may be.

The stock transfer agenda has been driven by the denial of funds to Welsh local authorities that would not necessarily have wanted to go down that path, because of the housing revenue account subsidy scheme. The HRA scheme has therefore had the undoubted effect of driving greater change in Wales than was ever envisaged, and, in my view, not necessarily a change for the better.

My local authority, Carmarthenshire county council, which is keen on keeping its housing stock, was recently forced to borrow money in order to introduce its housing plan to keep its stock in public ownership. If the money from the council’s own rents had been available to it, it would not have needed to borrow money; it could have used the revenue generated by its stock’s rents. As a ring-fenced account, money collected in this way can only be used on housing. Why is that option simply not available for local authorities in Wales?

Due to the scale of the situation, it is perhaps surprising that the Treasury was unable to provide details of the HRA contribution made by Welsh local authorities when I asked a parliamentary question on the subject in July. Thankfully, it seems the Welsh Government are better at keeping records of that sort of financial transaction. Their response to my freedom of information request made clear the scale of the great rent robbery.

As the Treasury has been unable to provide the figures, it will be useful for the record and indeed for the Treasury’s records if I outline each Welsh local authority’s contribution in cash terms since 1999. If I may try the patience of the House, Mrs Brooke, the figures are, to the nearest million: Blaenau Gwent, £12 million; Bridgend, £16 million; Caerphilly, £70 million; Cardiff, £139 million; my home county of Carmarthenshire, £51 million; Ceredigion, £15 million; Conwy, £14 million; Denbighshire, £32 million; Flintshire, £62 million; Gwynedd, £53 million; Ynys Môn, £23 million; Monmouthshire, £33 million; Neath Port Talbot, £52 million; Newport, £75 million; Pembrokeshire, £63 million; Powys, £60 million; Rhondda Cynon Taff, £2 million; Swansea, £56 million; Torfaen, £71 million; Vale of Glamorgan, £56 million; Wrexham, £110 million. Merthyr was the only Welsh council in surplus of £5 million. If the Minister wants, I can provide an annual breakdown for each year since 1999, but I might try his patience a bit too much.

[Guto Bebb]

Do the figures quoted date from 2000 onwards, or from the 1989 decision?

[Jonathan Edwards]

From 1999, because the Welsh Government can provide figures only since devolution, but 2000 would have been the benchmark.

Considering the pressure on housing waiting lists, it is sobering to think that if those moneys had been retained over the past decade, 10,000 brand-new family houses could have been built in Wales, all eco-friendly and built to modern specifications. That could have helped address major social justice issues such as fuel poverty. Some 30% of households in Wales, not just those living in public stock, are in fuel poverty. We could have addressed Wales’s terrible legacy of poor housing and associated poor health. The money could also have provided enormous benefits for the local construction economy, which is part of the backbone of Welsh employment, and improved the circulation of money inside some of the poorest communities in Wales.

I am informed that by now the Treasury will have received a letter on the issue from the Welsh Minister for Business and Budget and Deputy Minister for Housing and Regeneration. The letter encloses a report by Professor Wilcox, an expert on housing finance. I have not been privy to that report, but I believe that it argues that Wales should have parity with Scotland. I agree, as I hope will all parties in Wales.

Furthermore, the new UK Government’s decision to scrap the housing revenue account for England this September means that there is no justification whatever for the Treasury’s insistence that the scheme should continue to apply to Wales alone. Such is the inequity and injustice at the heart of the whole affair that I believe, as I said in a recent early-day motion, that the Treasury should make reparations based on the real-terms amounts of money accumulated over the past two decades. At the very least, the Treasury must make a clear statement that the provisions of the HRA and the great pillage of Welsh rents are to cease with immediate effect.

In terms of the UK Budget, this ever-decreasing figure, which lessens every time a local authority transfers its housing stock, is small, but to the tenants who must make do with poorer-quality housing than they deserve and the local authorities that want to provide new and better-quality housing for their residents, it is a significant amount. This is not just the right thing to do; it is the best thing to do and the fair thing to do. Diolch yn fawr.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman will have to wait; our voting intentions will be made clear.

We have many concerns about the impact of constituency changes on Wales. Wales, more than any other part of the UK, will be seriously affected by the proposed changes. As many right hon. and hon. Members from my country have pointed out, Wales will probably have about 30 seats following the changes—a cut of 10 seats or 25%, compared with 5.5% in England, 9% in Scotland and 17% in Northern Ireland. We do not agree with those changes, which will strongly affect the Welsh voice at Westminster. We will table an amendment to prevent such a massive loss of representation.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

On the reduction in the number of Welsh MPs from 40 to 30, does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in the eyes of the Welsh public, an unintended consequence of that change will be an enhancement of the powers of the Welsh Assembly. We can debate the powers of the Welsh Assembly, but my view, which I suspect he shares, is that the people of Wales should make a decision about the powers of the Welsh Assembly. Does he agree that by reducing the number of Welsh MPs from 40 to 30, and reducing the voice of Wales in the House, we are, in effect, increasing the powers of the Welsh Assembly by default?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, which was also made by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). A case could be made for reducing the number of Welsh MPs, but such a reduction would have to follow a further transfer of powers and a plebiscite in Wales, following a referendum. Part 4 of the Government of Wales Act awards sovereignty over current devolved fields only, so that would not justify a reduction in Welsh MPs either, even if a referendum was won in March.

The think-tank Demos recently published a map showing the power gap—how different constituencies in the UK vary in importance with regard to their voters’ actions. The proposed change to a system based on electoral registration will not, as the Deputy Prime Minister argues, ensure that all votes will be worth the same in electing a Member of Parliament. Under AV, the same few swing seats will still decide the Government. In addition, basing such a system on electoral registration might be doubly damaging to some areas. Those areas with greater social problems, such as poor education or higher unemployment, are likely to have fewer people on the electoral roll. In reality, therefore, MPs for such areas will be dealing with a greater number of electors than he or she imagined, as well as a much higher caseload.

The leader of my party, the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), expressed amusement at the idea of new constituencies being no larger than 13,000 square miles. If I remember my geography lessons correctly, Wales is only 20,000 square miles in total. However, this is a serious point: if a Member’s constituency is 100 miles north to south and east to west, how can they properly serve their constituents while travelling between their constituency and London and around a large rural area?

As the Bill is on constitutional affairs, and we are dealing with changes to the Government of Wales Act 2006, other issues should be raised. Power to vary National Assembly election dates should be a matter for the Assembly and not the Secretary of State for Wales. We should end the electoral system that prevents candidates from standing for both a constituency and a regional list for the National Assembly—a policy with which, I believe, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats in Wales both agree.

There is little in the Bill to commend: a referendum on a voting reform option that will not excite the proponents of electoral reform and that will merely tinker with the edges of the problem of the first-past-the-post system, even if the referendum is successful; a referendum date with a negative impact on democracy, most obviously in the Celtic nations, carried through without consultation or discussion with those Administrations; and a change in the number of MPs, which will massively and negatively impact on my country. Although my party strongly believes in electoral reform, we cannot support the Bill at this stage.