Helen Goodman
Main Page: Helen Goodman (Labour - Bishop Auckland)Intellectual Property Bill [Lords]
Helen Goodman Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Wright
I thank my hon. Friend for that question, but where does he think I am getting these statistics, if not from his Committee’s report? It showed the important role that creative industries play in our economy in providing well-paid jobs, innovation and investment in the country. It also mentioned the tension between content companies and technological companies. My hon. Friend mentioned Google, and I seem to remember reading in the transcript of his Committee’s proceedings that the IP Minister, Viscount Younger, said that he finds it more difficult to get into No. 10 Downing street to meet the Prime Minister than the representatives of Google. Perhaps that needs to be dealt with.
In the Committee’s report on that excellent review of the UK creative industries, my hon. Friend and other hon. Members stated:
“Given the importance of the creative sector to the UK economy and the relative importance to that sector of strong IP protection, strongly enforced, the Government must do more to protect and promote UK IP as a system for growth.”
It would be wrong, however, to think of IP as confined only to the creative industries. High-value manufacturing is dependent on innovative design.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend give way before he leaves the subject of the creative industries?
Helen Goodman
Everything my hon. Friend has said about the creative industries shows how important they are. Does that not show how bizarre it is that the Government have not made the creative industries one of their 11 priority sectors?
Mr Wright
Yes, it does; my hon. Friend is spot on. Given that 11 industrial sector documents—I think—have been produced, and that the creative industries are a fantastic growth area that provides innovative and well-paid jobs and projects around the world an image of the UK’s soft power that is envied by other countries, and given how that can bring further investment and prosperity to our country, I do not understand why the Government have not got a creative industries industrial sector document. Perhaps the Minister will respond to that point when he sums up the debate. Perhaps it is because Whitehall is often silo-driven and IP is often in a conflict between the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Culture, Media and Sport. No one from the DCMS ministerial team is on the Treasury Bench, and I wonder whether there is a degree of tension and conflict. Are the Government speaking with one voice when it comes to IP and to supporting and promoting our fantastic creative industries?
Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
I think everybody welcomes the Bill as far as it goes. The Minister said in introducing it that it was a small but perfectly formed extract from Hargreaves. I agree to some extent with part of the latter, but I certainly agree with the former.
The value of the creative industries—however one chooses to define them—to the UK economy is certainly no less than £20 billion, and I have seen figures suggesting sums up to four and five times that. They are therefore a significant part of our economic and social activity. In the fields of music, arts, literature, film, design, invention, fashion and innovation, Britain is an international leader. That is why we need the strongest possible framework for IP protection and why I think the whole House will welcome the Bill as far as it goes.
May I ask the Minister to tell the Prime Minister that Viscount Younger of Leckie in the other place is the Minister for intellectual property, because when I asked the Prime Minister a question a couple of months ago, he seemed to believe it was the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey)? The fact that the Prime Minister does not know who his intellectual property Minister is does not bode well for the Government’s policy in general in respect of the sector. In a letter, Viscount Younger and the Minister for Universities and Science said that the Bill had three main points:
“to simplify and improve design and patent protection; to clarify the IP legal framework; and to ensure the international IP system supports UK businesses effectively.”
In an additional note included with that letter to all Members, three further areas were highlighted: clarifying and enforcing rights in design; improving the operation of UK patent law; and reorganising the Intellectual Property Office and giving it an annual review. I am an office-holder—don’t ask me which one—of the all-party parliamentary intellectual property group, and I see other members of the group in the Chamber today. We have discussed the proposals and I certainly welcome them.
Will the Minister tell us whether the Intellectual Property Office’s new role will include that of champion, advocate or protector of intellectual property rights, rather than being merely a registry as it was when it was the Patent Office? There is a strong feeling that, since it took on the broader remit, it has been searching for a role. I am led to believe that one of its leading officials is going off to pastures greener—or perhaps a different colour altogether—in the near future. I hope that the Government will take the opportunity to redefine the purpose of the IPO, particularly as many competitor countries have a far more interventionist role in IP, given its value to the economy. Perhaps the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) could become a tsar, or be given some other rank. I can think of plenty worse appointments; they number at least 20! We need to take this matter far more seriously and push it up the agenda, particularly as we move from an economy based on industry and manufacturing to one that is more knowledge-based. A modern economy needs the protection of strong IP rules and regulations.
In an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), I mentioned the Library briefing document on the Bill. It states that a survey of 36 similar countries found that the UK was ranked as the best place to obtain, exploit and enforce copyright, but that it was ranked second for patents and only fifth for design. That illustrates the imbalance that exists. The question posed in recent years has been whether the existing legislative framework is inhibiting expansion of the design sector. In 2010, the Prime Minister set up the review under Professor Hargreaves. That followed the Gowers review, which was set up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in 2005. That review reported in 2006, and I have to be candid and say that I was disappointed that the then Government did not do more to implement its findings. I suspect that that was for similar reasons to those that are afflicting the present Government—namely, that parts of the Government do not really understand the necessity of providing the strongest possible legal framework for creators and innovators.
Hargreaves replicated much of what Gowers had done. He reached different conclusions in different areas, but there are parts of his report on which we need to make progress. Given that the Bill represents only part of the fall-out—that is not really the right word; I should say the results—of the Hargreaves report, does the Minister acknowledge that there is much more to do? Given the threadbare nature of the Government’s programme, the inability of the component parts of the coalition to agree on very much at all, and the likelihood of there being precious little more for the House to do after the next Queen’s Speech, would that not be an ideal opportunity to fillet some more out of the Hargreaves report and bring it before the House—
Jim Dowd
Well, I am an engineer by training. I just happen to know these things. We could bring forward those proposals and make more progress. These issues are becoming more, not less, urgent, and the need for us to take action is becoming ever more pressing.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) on reading out the briefing from the Alliance for Intellectual Property almost word for word. I am sure that the alliance will be delighted that its researcher has not laboured in vain to bring its concerns to public attention. The hon. Gentleman also pointed out that the most contentious part of the Bill was clause 13. The difficulty with it, and it will be hard to find a way that pleases everybody, is that legitimate and genuine but conflicting rights and interests are involved. Those depend on where someone comes from, and people’s instinct or feelings about the clause tend to be based on their commercial interest in the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool outlined how a large organisation could intimidate a small rights holder by saying, “Unless you pay us, we will not allow you to use this.” Equally, a small rights holder could be told by an organisation that it is going to use something come what may and the only way of stopping it is by court action, particularly if it disputes that there is a breach or infringement in the first place. The IP Federation is the most antagonistic to clause 13, although, as has been mentioned, others are too. By contrast, plenty of others, including the Alliance for Intellectual Property and the Law Society, are in favour of its provisions. Clearly something will have to be put in the Bill there. Rejecting the clause entirely is not a viable option, as it will not bring clarity and it will not deal with the imbalance between those who are powerful and those who are not so.
The IP Federation contains some of the largest businesses and corporations in the country, but that does not mean it does not have genuine and serious concerns. Dyson Technology Ltd, which has been mentioned, is a member of the IP Federation. As I say, that does not mean that it does not have genuine concerns and legitimate interests. The problem in this whole area, and it will be with this Bill, is trying to find the correct balance between competing and sometimes contradictory interests.
There is a broad welcome for the Bill, but the missed opportunity has been outlined in detail by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington. It is not unknown in this House for people to repeat things that somebody else has said, but I will disobey that particular convention and gloss over most of what he said. However, he did make a point about parasitic packaging, which is entirely different from counterfeit packaging—that is an offence in itself.
This issue was brought home to me most strikingly just last Saturday when I was in The Hare & Billet pub in Blackheath, which is well known to my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), whom I see on the Front Bench. I was having lunch and I asked whether there was any Worcestershire sauce—everybody knows the famous manufacturers of it and, being a simple soul from south-east London, I thought there was only one Worcester sauce. The nice chap serving us said there certainly was, and he came back with a bottle shaped like the one I always remember containing the marvellous concoction that is Lea & Perrins Worcestershire sauce. Not only was this bottle the same shape and size, but, amazingly, its label was orange with black lettering. However, it was something from Sheffield, from someone called Henderson’s, whoever they are. I am sure that Mr Henderson and his company are perfectly estimable, and I am sure they pursue an entirely legitimate business, but I could not help feeling, “Of all the colours they could choose for their label and all of the shapes they could have for their bottle!” I did not even know there was such a thing as Sheffield sauce until then.
I thought that was an ideal example of just how easy these things are to do. As we can all recall, some of the most successful contemporary retailers have their own named products—I will not name them—which mimic exactly the colours and packaging of their more famous rivals. As I recall, in its television advertising one of them actually uses the slogan “Like brands, only cheaper”. That is clearly a deliberate attempt to exploit the efforts of others without any concomitant responsibility to contribute to them.
The other area is the growth of online activities. In recent months, we have seen the emergence of a number of sites that, while not illegal, masquerade as official sites. I experienced that recently in relation to the congestion charge and the Transport for London site. The unofficial site managed to get the search engines to promote it up the scale. Although it offered to pay the congestion charge for someone entering the zone, it charged a fee as well. Anyone going straight to the TfL site can pay the congestion charge with no fee whatever. There has been an increase in the number of such sites, even false sites offering Government services.
One bit of evidence that the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington did not read out said that the British Phonographic Industry, which represents the recorded music industry in which this country excels,
“sends in excess of three million requests to Google”—
I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) to note that—
“each month to delist URLs which point to infringing content.”
This is a grave and growing problem that we need to address.
My earnest hope is that we will consider all these matters in some detail in Committee and during the later consideration of this Bill to ensure that we optimise the modest proposals that are coming forward today.
In future, comprehensive IP protection will be ever more important as we become more dependent on the knowledge-based and creative industries to ensure the proper utilisation and advance of innovation and the exploitation—in its best sense—of developments while ensuring adequate reward to the creators and innovators to encourage originality and ingenuity. If we do not go down that route, we will lose our expertise across a wide area in which this country has for long excelled, and we will be the poorer socially, intellectually and economically.
Pete Wishart
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for saying that; it does bring a degree of comfort. I recognise that there is an attempt to try to resolve this matter. He clearly recognises that it is a huge issue for us that has to be resolved. The whole Scottish legal establishment is united in calling for that. I welcome what he said and hope that as we take the Bill through we will hear more about it and can ensure that the Scottish courts are satisfied and that we do not lose their centuries of experience in dealing with patent issues.
I want to say a few words about clause 21, which will require the Secretary of State to report on the activities of the IPO and how it has supported innovation and growth in the United Kingdom. I do not think any Member would argue against that. It is a very positive step that provides a bit of a focus for the IPO’s activities. However, any measure must be quantified, and it must include some reference to how those activities have supported IP-dependent businesses and IP rights.
One major battle throughout the Hargreaves process was all the stuff about economic evidence. I remember when the creative industries used to present evidence to us. The work done by the creative industries to inform the Government about their activities—it was sometimes commissioned by the Government—was arrogantly dismissed by Hargreaves as “lobbynomics”. However, the Intellectual Property Office made some heroic assumptions to support its copyright exceptions. It said that if all 10 of Hargreaves’s recommendations were introduced it would make a difference of between 0.6% and 0.9% of GDP. Come on! It expected us to believe that. It therefore works both ways.
Some of the other heroic assumptions underpinning copyright exceptions were totally unbelievable. We in the all-party group on intellectual property asked IPO officers to come in and explain them, and we found what they said totally unsatisfactory. The annual report must therefore be credible and robust, and it must respect everybody in the sector. The Government should not just leave it to the Intellectual Property Office to concoct some figures and expect us to be happy and satisfied with them. At some point, we will have to be able to challenge the assumptions and look at what underlies them, because we cannot have some of the nonsensical economic assumptions that we had in the past.
Lastly, I want to return to Google. This all started with Google, did it not? It was kicked off by the “Googlesburg” address, but let us try to turn that on its head. The issue was all about whether a Google could emerge in the UK because of restrictive intellectual property practices. What about looking at Google itself? It is a digital behemoth—there is nothing bigger in the digital world—and the gatekeeper for all our content industries. Nothing happens without Google, and nothing can go through its prism without satisfying it in some way. It distorts the digital market, and it is damn good at ensuring that it keeps its predominant position. All its activities are about maintaining its predominant, almost monopoly position as the gatekeeper of content. It produces no content of its own—not a bit—but, yet again, the question all comes down to how content is measured and assessed.
Helen Goodman
As a matter of fact, what the hon. Gentleman says about Google not producing its own content is inaccurate. It would strengthen his argument if he acknowledged that it produces content—for example, maps. He is probably aware that the European Commission is now looking at its uncompetitive behaviour in putting its own products above others in the search engine.
Pete Wishart
I was perhaps a tad too harsh in relation to Google producing some of its content. Yes, it copies maps, puts them up and makes sure that people can access them, but it produces none of what we understand and appreciate as content, whether drama, film, television or whatever. All it does is act as a platform, which is the only platform that people use.
At some time, this Government must have a proper look at the almost monopoly status of this huge, multinational, non-UK business and ask whether it is good for our content industries. I have a sneaking feeling that it is not. I have seen the evidence from the British Phonographic Industry. It sent 50 million notices to Google asking it to take down links to illegal— I emphasise, illegal—sites. Google should not be doing that. What on earth is going on if it receives 50 million requests to take down links to illegal sites?
If hon. Members run Google searches for MP3 downloads for the top 20 singles or albums from the whole of November, on average 77% of first-page search results for singles and 64% of those for albums will direct them to illegal sites. Is that not incredible? If they put in the name of a band to find some of its musical content, they will be directed to an illegal site through Google. What on earth is going on? As the BPI has said, Google’s monopoly leads consumers into
“a murky underworld of unlicensed sites, where they may break the law…because it persistently ranks such sites above trusted legal services when consumers search for music to download.”
It is time to call in the Competition Commission: we cannot continue to allow Google to be the gateway to content industries when they do them so much damage.
I met and had a fantastic chat with the Featured Artists Coalition just before Christmas. It has represented some of our greatest pop stars over the past 50 years—people who have made millions of pounds for the UK economy and given us great entertainment throughout those years. One of its spokespeople, Crispin Hunt, perfectly summed up the situation when he said:
“A brilliant new band that I recently worked with has just been dropped by their label because their debut EP sold barely 4,000 copies. Yet the number one site on a Google Search for the same EP boasts of 23,000 illegal downloads…then directs me to an online brothel, next to an advert for Nissan as I rip the tunes. What more do I need to say?”
What more, indeed, need he say before something is done about the monopoly status of Google?
I hope that now we are bringing the Hargreaves process to its conclusion, we will start to consider how people access content, how it is distributed and how that distribution distorts the market, as well as how to ensure that our artists, inventors and creators are properly rewarded for their work. I hope to serve on the Public Bill Committee as there are several outstanding issues that need to be considered, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. He has those two brains, so he can get thinking on the Intellectual Property Bill, and I hope that his two brains will be in the mood to accept some helpful amendments as we try to improve it and to secure satisfaction for our creative industries and our artist creators.
The Bill is adequate and piecemeal, but it is the only one we have, so let us get this done. Let us finish the Hargreaves process and move on to the substantial and real work that we need to do to ensure that this country remains at the top of all cultural and artistic disciplines as we go into the next decade.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. I agree with everything my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) said at the beginning of the debate and am pleased to see a joined-up approach between the teams from the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Culture, Media and Sport.
As the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) has said, protecting intellectual property is essential in the modern, knowledge-based economy. It is particularly important in the creative industries, which support 1.5 million jobs and produce about £36 billion-worth of output.
The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) described the problem of illegal downloads, but he did not tell the House how large the number of illegal downloads is when aggregated. Ofcom estimates that, every three months, 280 million music tracks, 52 million television programmes, 29 million films, 18 million e-books and 7 million games are downloaded from sites without payment. It also estimates that about a fifth of households in this country go to those sites and do not pay for content. On behalf of the music recording industry, the BPI estimates that that costs the industry £250 million a year.
In the wash-up at the end of the previous Parliament, Labour and the Conservatives—the two major parties—agreed to pass the Digital Economy Act 2010. Unfortunately, the Government have been extremely dilatory in implementing its provisions. I am not saying that the provisions are perfect in every respect and that they do not need amendment, but the Government’s failure to get to grips properly with illegal downloading will cost the industry more than £1 billion in the lifetime of this Parliament.
The Government’s measures will not come into effect until the end of the next calendar year. They propose a voluntary code for ISPs. Under the Bill, the ISPs would notify people three times, after which the copyright holders of illegally downloaded content can call for slow connections, disconnections and so forth.
I do not agree with the proposals of the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley), the Prime Minister’s adviser, because he has brought no common sense to the debate. It is important that we distinguish between 14-year-olds in their bedrooms downloading two or three Justin Bieber tracks on to an iPod and people who make multi-billion pound businesses out of providing illegal material. It is not right to treat the two groups in the same way. We need measures that address the audience, who are unconscious of what they are doing, and the industry, which knows perfectly well what it is doing and is utterly disingenuous. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is mithering from a sedentary position. I am not saying that there should not be a penalty for the teenagers downloading material illegally, but I am saying that we should regard the problem much as we regard driving fines—we should have a points system building up to fines.
Mike Weatherley
My point was that, when we get the education right and people understand that stealing intellectual property is wrong, and when the industry has alternative downloading models, if we exhaust fines and other means of stopping persons downloading illegally, we must consider some sort of custodial sentence for persistent offenders and people who operate on a commercial scale.
Helen Goodman
The point is that the people operating on a commercial scale are in a different category and should be dealt with much more severely. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman that education must be part of that strand, but I am uneasy about switching off the internet because, for example, the 12-year-old little sister of a 16-year-old who illegally downloads pop music might be unable to upload her school home work. That does not seem to be the right way to go about dealing with the problem. But if the governing party wants to charge into criminalising every teenager in the land—well, that is an election opportunity for them.
To make any of this happen, it is obvious that we must reform the Intellectual Property Office, which does not have an important role at the moment. The hon. Member for Hove said nothing about what should be done with respect to the industry. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire was absolutely right: we must have an EU approach. I know that that pains Ministers and means that they will have to see off the wilder shores of Euroscepticism, but this is a perfect example of where we need to see a European approach. Two points are particularly important: blocking sites that give people access to material they do not pay for; and requiring search engines to change their algorithms to prioritise legal sites. It is completely disingenuous for them to say, “Oh, we have received 5 million notifications and blah-de-blah-de-blah.” We all know that this is the root cause of the problem, so let us tackle it.
We must remember that this industry is one engine of growth in the British economy, but we must also take seriously the needs and the role of researchers in universities and in the British Library. We must update the law to allow them to have what they need: text mining for non-commercial research; heritage protection by digitising material; a workable private copying regime; and ensuring that the law overrides private contracts on digital material. The Hargreaves report came up with a number of proposals. Some were sensible—on orphan works and digital exchange—while others were perhaps more controversial, but one point on which I think we can all agree is that we do not wish to move the British economy to a litigious model, with the levels of litigation that are prevalent in the United States.
What I will say now relates in part to unregistered design. I have a concern about people putting patents on things that are part of the common culture, either here or overseas. For example, the recipe for a cucumber sandwich or people singing “Ring a Ring O’ Roses” at a children’s birthday party are a part of the common culture. Those examples might seem a little fanciful to hon. Members, but I will provide two examples where the common culture has been appropriated by some people to their financial benefit, and not necessarily to the financial benefit of all.
In the 1950s, some people collecting folk songs went to Teesdale in my constituency. They went right to the top of the dale and met some stonemasons. They got the stonemasons to sing songs and recorded them. They took the recordings away and shared them with people making music. One of the songs they recorded was “Scarborough Fair”. This was given to Simon and Garfunkel, who of course made an absolute fortune with it, and the stonemasons in my constituency made absolutely nothing. I think Simon and Garfunkel are great and they made a lovely production of the song, but it was a part of our common culture.
Today, we see this kind of thing going on in other industries. Sometimes there are glamorous models shimmying along the catwalk wearing prints that, not to put too fine a point on it, have been ripped off from people in Africa. The people in Africa, who have been making the prints for generations, get nothing, but the people who reproduce them patent the design and make an absolute fortune. I am sure that hon. Members agree that this need not to patent the common culture is something that we need to keep in our minds, so that we do not shift from one situation that deprives people who are genuinely making new, scientific innovations and discoveries, to a situation where we put legal attributions on every single idea and part of the common culture.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
I am a little intrigued by the hon. Lady’s “Scarborough Fair” example. I presume that Simon and Garfunkel rightly had title to their particular performance, but surely they did not gain title to the song? I assume other people can go off and make their own arrangements of it without having to pay Simon and Garfunkel.
Helen Goodman
Unhappily, I think that that is exactly what did happen, and that was a mistake. I just want to caution the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool not to make that kind of mistake.
I remind Members that, although we are talking a lot about the implications of new technology, this is a very old problem. I am sure that some Members will know this poem, which is at least 600 years old and is absolutely on the point:
“The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from off the goose.”
Mr Willetts
I am not aware of Simon and Garfunkel having gone around Derbyshire—
Mr Willetts
Sorry, was it Durham? I am not aware of Simon and Garfunkel prosecuting folk musicians for singing their version of “Scarborough Fair”. I do not think they ever did that, and I very much doubt that the law would have sustained them if they had tried to do it.
What the Government intend to do on copyright exemptions is to lay down the regulations in February, and they will then be subject to a debate under the affirmative resolution procedure. We understand the need for individual consideration; the regulations will not be completely bundled up.
Time is tight, so let me move on. Several Members raised the issue—and I completely understand the strong feelings about it—of links to illegal sites via Google, pirated content and so forth. We in the UK have led the way on intervening against criminal IP infringement through intermediary services. We have set up a new police unit that uses money laundering regulations to force removal of payment services from infringing sites. Similar work is being done with advertising revenue and domain registration. We are absolutely tackling this issue; we are ahead of the rest of the world.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hove asked about the important issue of education. I welcome the work he does as intellectual property adviser to the Prime Minister. Again, we are trying to make progress in this area. We have seen the IPO do more to build an environment in which IP rights are properly respected. We absolutely understand the importance of education.
That brings me to interventions about the IPO’s annual reporting, which will be wide ranging. It will be able to comment on topical issues that developed during the year, looking ahead. It will certainly be able to report on what is being done on education so that people understand the danger of not properly valuing intellectual property. As we heard in the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), in doing so, the IPO will contribute significantly to economic growth by ensuring that innovators, particularly in design, that are essential for our economy’s performance, are at last properly protected against people who rip off their designs and do not properly respect the value of the work they have done. This Bill brings important protection to those designers. For that reason alone, if for no other, I greatly hope that the Bill will be supported on Second Reading across the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Intellectual Property Bill [Lords] (Programme)
Ordered,
That the following provisions shall apply to the Intellectual Property Bill [Lords]:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 30 January 2014.
(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Consideration and Third Reading
(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of the proceedings.
(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after the commencement of proceedings on Consideration.
(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Anne Milton.)