National Railway Museum and Ownership of National Assets

Debate between Helen Goodman and Kelvin Hopkins

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Westminster Hall

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I agree absolutely. Losing our heritage would be a disaster for our history. Some countries have had their histories almost destroyed and forgotten, and they have been lessened by that experience. We must preserve our great industrial heritage.

My concern—indeed, my alarm—has been raised by the giving away of three steam locomotives during the past 18 months without consultation and outside the terms of both the 1983 Act and the Museums Association guidelines. I ask Ministers today to intervene to ensure that that practice is stopped and, if possible, that the decisions affecting the three locomotives and other National Railway Museum-gifted possessions are reversed.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Which ones are they?

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I will come to the specific detail about the particular engines.

The decisions were unprecedented and indeed set a dangerous precedent that could be followed by others unless abandoned now. Precious artefacts of all kinds must remain owned by us all, for us all, and be exhibited in our great museums and galleries of all kinds, showing to the world our rich national heritage in all its glory.

The first “gifted” locomotive, handed over in April last year, is a North Staffordshire Railway 0-6-2T No. 2, which was given without consultation or announcement to Foxfield Railway, which is not an official accredited museum under the terms of the 1983 Act. The engine is still listed on the NRM’s website, 18 months after its legal transfer. The previous custodian of that engine, the Churnet Valley Railway—the only surviving stretch of the former North Staffordshire Railway—has said:

“We certainly were not consulted by the NRM nor invited to make a bid for it.”

In March this year, a second locomotive, the London and South Western Railway T3 4-4-0 locomotive No. 563, was gifted, again without consultation, to Swanage Railway, a non-accredited museum. The engine made a six-figure sum for the Science Museum Group in theatre appearance fees immediately before disposal, with the museum group’s commercial arm having given the okay before the show ended. That locomotive is a unique survivor, selected for preservation by Southern Railway in the 1940s to represent its own history. National Railway Museum curator Andrew McLean said that the engine was

“one of the great examples of late-19th century locomotives.”

I am told it has been left outside in all weathers for the past six months and has deteriorated. In the last two days, however, I have been informed of plans for the engine to be refired and made to work sometime in the future, but that is still uncertain.

The third engine, given to Swindon Borough Council’s Steam Museum, was saved for the nation as a perfect example of the work of the foremost steam locomotive engineer G.M. Churchwood—a brilliant designer, who introduced standardisation to British manufacturing. The engine in question is Great Western Railway 28xx 2-8-0 No. 2818, a design that revolutionised the transport of freight, increasing train weight and length fourfold. It had a vital role in supplying the first world war grand fleet at Scapa Flow. Railway expert David Ward has said that the 28xx is more important to the collection than the Flying Scotsman—some comparison indeed.

Each of those three locomotives is a unique and historic treasure that belongs—and should belong—to all of us, so that future generations can visit the NRM at York, wonder at the beauty of these machines and celebrate the genius of our forebears in creating them. If there were several identical locomotives, there could be a case for distributing them, but only on lease or loan while remaining in the ownership of the nation through the NRM.

Heritage steam rail services are one of the great joys of all railway enthusiasts. I have been on many such trips, including being drawn by the Flying Scotsman, the Duchess of Montrose and many others. Those services should continue, but our precious railway heritage must not be given away. The disposal of assets by our great museums is tightly governed by strict criteria in the 1983 Act.

[Helen Goodman]

I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend for initiating the debate. I am concerned about Locomotion No. 1, the first passenger train steam engine. Built in 1825 by Timothy Hackworth in Shildon in my constituency, it ought to be in the NRM branch museum in Shildon; instead, it is in a small museum where people have to pay. It should be in the free, public museum that 200,000 people visit every year. I hope the Minister, with the Science Museum Group, will also address that point.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention. I agree with her. Giving away publicly owned locomotives from museums that are free to enter to institutions where people have to pay is, in effect, privatisation.

Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

Debate between Helen Goodman and Kelvin Hopkins

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

I wish to begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) on securing this debate. I am very grateful to him for asking me to support his application to the Backbench Business Committee for this very important debate, and I agreed with everything that he said about the risks of TTIP and about the need for us to think more deeply about the institutional architecture as we move forward, so that trade, environment and labour standards are all put on an equal footing.

I also want to say what an excellent speech my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) made. He drew out the problems that similar arrangements have caused in developing countries. The point that he made demonstrated that those of us who are raising questions are fully in the tradition of all those who back the human rights and democratic values of Europe and America.

The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has analysed the benefits of TTIP. Its estimate is that the gain in this country by 2027 in terms of higher GDP would be £7 billion. When one hears the figure of £7 billion a year, that sounds like quite a lot, but let me put it in the context of the amount of trade we have in this country and the huge uncertainties about the forecasts as we go forward.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I just want to make the point that statistics are bandied about for political advantage. My hon. Friend is quite right about the £7 billion, but how would it compare with the £62 billion of trade deficit with the European Union? Those are the kind of figures that make £7 billion very small indeed.

[Helen Goodman]

The point that I was going to make was that the Office for Budget Responsibility, in its forecast of GDP out to 2020, has an uncertainty of 6% in GDP. That is £160 billion, so we lose the £7 billion of economic benefits in the rounding. I am not saying that there will not be some economic benefits, but we should consider how significant they are and weigh them against the disadvantages that other hon. Members have mentioned. Will this have a significant benefit for our level of exports? By way of comparison, the impact on the level of growth in the markets to which we export is expected to be £338 billion over the next five years. If we have variations in the exchange rate, that will be far greater than the possible benefits we can get from this trade deal.

I am resting my case on the analysis from the Minister’s Department. On the assumption that the Department has got this right, each person in this country would benefit to the tune of £110 a year, or about £2 a week. It is very nice to have £2 a week and I am sure that we would all rather have it than not, but if the price that has to be paid is a loss of working conditions, labour standards and potential improvements in the national minimum wage or national living wage, the benefits will not in practice accrue to ordinary people in this country. That is why people have doubts about this.

Colleagues have raised the concerns about the national health service, the environment and food standards. I think that the carve-out in the European Commission’s negotiating mandate secured by the French on audio-visual services is extremely important; it is also important that we maintain our cultural resources.

Let me come to the big downside of TTIP, which is the loss of sovereignty inherent in the investor-state dispute settlement. The intellectual integrity and honesty displayed in the speech of the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, made it a very important contribution to the debate.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Helen Goodman and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 23rd June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman]

I want to speak to the amendments in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), as well as to the Government amendments.

Clause 54 puts a duty on the Secretary of State to review the sanctions on those who own a television but fail to pay the licence fee. Our amendment would require the Secretary of State to lay the review’s terms of reference before both Houses. Clause 55 gives the Secretary of State a power to decriminalise sanctions on those who fail to pay the licence fee. Our amendment would prevent this power from being used before the completion of the next review of the BBC’s royal charter.

The BBC is a universal service, and the licence fee is a universal payment for anyone with a television. The licence fee is not a tax; it is a guarantee of the BBC’s independence. The BBC is the most trusted source of news in the United Kingdom, with 58% of people rating it as their most trusted news source.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the BBC is trusted not just in Britain but across the world, and when other broadcasting services are compared to it, they take it as flattery or a compliment?

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The BBC is now one of the great British brands and it exports across the world.

In the evolution of British broadcasting, the licence fee has gained broad support. Nearly everyone in the UK uses the BBC each week—it has 97% reach—which helps to explain why support for the licence fee is at 53%, up from only 31% in 2004, and is ahead of the 17% support for subscriptions and the 26% support for advertising. It is the top choice for funding the BBC across all ages and all socio-economic groups, whether people are in Freeview, Sky or Virgin households.

Not just the public but other broadcasters appreciate the licence fee, since they have built their business models using finance from advertising, sponsorship and subscription on the assumption that the BBC will not enter those markets and that, as a result, the size of those markets will be fairly stable. Labour believes that the licence fee is the best funding model.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I apologise for intervening again so quickly, but I want to reinforce my hon. Friend’s point. The fact is that we have quality television across the piece in Britain because of the BBC. If it were not for the BBC, standards might drop severely.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. No one wants people to go to prison for non-payment of the licence fee. Last year, 165,000 people failed to pay, and 51 were jailed for non-payment of the associated fines, even though people can pay by instalment. Clearly, we need some sanctions to ensure payment. The question is whether the current sanctions are the right ones. That is why we have agreed to a review of the sanctions.

Our amendment 62 would require the Secretary of State to lay the review’s terms of reference before Parliament, because we want a proper, analytical and unbiased review. I wrote to the Solicitor-General’s colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who has responsibility for communications, about this matter on 7 April.

Such a review should cover the impact of a change on the level of licence fee evasion. It would be helpful to have historical data on evasion rates. According to the TV licensing database, the statistics on the socio-economic background of unlicensed properties show that 38% are ABs, 29% are C1s, 13% are C2s, 8% are Ds and 11.5% are Es. Those figures are broadly in line with the socio-economic background of UK properties as a whole. That does not translate to the socio-economic status of those prosecuted or imprisoned for non-payment of the licence fee, but it indicates that there is higher evasion among better-off households.

The review should cover the impact on the BBC’s finances. Without that information, we will not know the full impact of evasion. Estimates suggest that a 1% increase in non-payment might lead to a £35 million loss to the BBC. It has said:

“If Licence Fee evasion were to double to around 10%, the BBC would have an estimated…£200 million less per annum for content and services—equivalent to the combined budget of BBC4 and our two children’s channels, CBeebies and CBBC, for example. Due to low rates of evasion at present, an additional £6.7m was available to spend on BBC content in 2012/13.”

Obviously, if evasion went up, such investment would no longer be possible.

The review needs to look at the impact of new technology and the possibility of ending the BBC’s universal offer. Currently, the BBC cannot switch off the signal, so what would happen if it could?