Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Annette Brooke

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

Indeed; my hon. Friend is exactly right. I will want to return to those issues later.

What is happening, of course, is that councils that are better off with fewer claimants can afford to subsidise the scheme, while others cannot. I have quoted Westminster, the flagship Tory local authority, and that is before we even move on to what the Government’s noble Friends in the Lords say. Last week Lord Jenkin was asked by the BBC whether there were echoes of the poll tax in this proposal. He said, “Yes, oh yes”—and after all, he should know, as he was the architect of the poll tax. When he warns the Government of the risk of backlash, they should listen, because he knows what happened last time. The late Lord Newton of Braintree—not, by anyone’s standards, a woolly liberal—is recorded as having said in the Lords last year:

“Is it sane?...I can hardly believe my ears”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 October 2011; Vol. 730, c. GC377.]

These are the Government’s allies, let us remember, and if they are aware of the problems it is no wonder the Government are now thinking about a review.

The Liberal Democrats—those who are here—should listen to Lord Greaves, the architect of many of their by-election victories, who told the Lancashire Telegraph that the scheme was “disgraceful” and told the Financial Times that it was

“the poll tax all over again.”

How far have the Lib Dems fallen that the party of Lloyd George is now voting for Pickles’ poll tax?

No wonder the Government are trying to find a way out of the mess they have created. No wonder they have decided not only that a review might be a good idea but to bring in some transitional relief as well.

[Annette Brooke]

Can the hon. Lady clarify the position of Labour Front Benchers? Do they object to the principle of localising council tax benefit—the principle, and not necessarily the situation we are in—or would they prefer that the system were returned to the Department for Work and Pensions and thus centralised rather than localised?

[Helen Jones]

Labour Front Benchers believe in a fair deal for vulnerable people wherever in the country they happen to live, and we do not believe that a disabled person in Wokingham should be treated differently from a disabled person in Wigan. Our principle is that the help that someone gets should be dependent on their situation, not on where they happen to live. That is a key part of our policy. Let me say this to the hon. Lady: this is a policy designed to hit the poorest people hardest, especially the poorest people who happen to live in the poorest local authorities, which have already taken the biggest cuts in spending power, as we have seen during the passage of the Bill. Let us remember the figures. Liverpool will have lost £235 per person in spending power. In Hartlepool, the figure is £183. In Wokingham—I could not resist mentioning it just once more in the context of this Bill—it is a grand total of £1.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Annette Brooke

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

I do not think that is correct. We will debate that with the next group of amendments, but I will make a little progress now.

The point of a national scheme is that risk is spread. If we move to a localised scheme, we must have some way of dealing with risk, but there is no way of doing that in this scheme. The Government cannot seriously argue that the closure of a major employer, for example, is a council’s responsibility. I know that, according to the Government’s “not me, guv” approach, nothing is their responsibility, but even they must accept that they are responsible for the national economy, not Warrington borough council, Nottingham, Carlisle or anywhere else. If a major employer closes, the local authority must have some way of dealing with it.

Our new clause would ensure that the Government’s power to pay a grant is used to meet any shortfall if a scheme costs more in benefit than the Government had originally agreed to pay to a local authority. Ministers ought not to be too concerned about this, because after all they have to approve the schemes, and they are not being asked to make an open-ended commitment. They approve the scheme and how it works, but a cash-limited budget cannot cope with sudden surges in demand. In fact, the Government admit that in their own impact assessment, which states:

“If demographic changes or economic circumstances mean that eligibility for council tax support increases significantly then the consequence of switching”—

from annually managed expenditure to departmental expenditure limits—

“will be that authorities bear more of the risk of a shortfall in funds.”

The risk of a shortfall or serious economic turbulence destabilising a local authority’s finances and, what is more, the poorest people in the area having to pay the price is not something that any Opposition Member, or I suspect a few Government Members, can accept. We have tabled new clause 11 because we believe that it would deal with the problem, and it might be helpful if I let you know, Mr Crausby, that we will seek to divide the Committee on that when the time comes.

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby.

On the first string of amendments, we are focusing on the 10% cut, which leads to all the other problems identified in subsequent strings. I accept that in addition to the 10% cut there are unexpected changes in the number of claimants and that apparently there is no cushion for that situation. Although I do not support the amendments that have been put forward, it is important to flag up the problems, which must not be ignored.

Let us consider the situation for a council faced with setting up a new system. Any savings it will be able to make through localisation of council tax benefit will need to be offset against the administrative costs it will incur. I accept that there must be some savings, because otherwise there would not be the same need for external audit when money is sent to the council to cover payments, but will the Minister state explicitly where the money will come from for the inevitably large cost of setting up individual schemes, particularly in the first year. There is of course the possibility that councils will work together, which would reduce the administrative costs of setting up new schemes, but they would then lose the advantage of localisation, because even an adjoining local authority will have a different demographic make-up. As soon as we focus on the 10% cut, we think about the demographic make-up.

I share some of the concerns that have been raised across the House. Once we ring-fence pensioners—we probably all agree that they should be protected—we effectively put a gearing effect on everyone else. By the time we have picked out families with a disabled member and other vulnerable groups, the reduction in council tax benefit, which might have started as an average of £2 a week, will start escalating on the backs of just a few people to £6, then £10, all depending on the make-up of the local authority area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Annette Brooke]

Yes, indeed. Such local authorities will need to talk to one another, and it will be difficult to get the right balance between a truly local scheme and work with adjoining authorities—I suppose I am talking about working across, horizontally and vertically. It is not clear from the Bill how a district council will cope with the issue

The string of amendments under discussion is about funding, and the concern all comes from the 10% cut. There are potential extra revenue streams, however, and they need to be addressed. I appreciate that point, given the modifications to the second homes and empty homes premiums, but it is unlikely that we will get an absolute match between the money that is lost and any money that might be gained, so we need to look at that aspect.

[Helen Jones]

Does the hon. Lady accept, however, that the second homes premium and, even, the empty homes premium do not apply in many local authorities? There are very few second homes in Warrington, so there will be no extra revenue going to the local authority from that premium.

[Annette Brooke]

The very point I was making is that there are variations throughout the whole country, so there needs to be some sort of stabilisation, contingency, transition—whatever we want to call it—because of the differences throughout the country and the possibility that the measure in the Bill will hit some very vulnerable people very hard. I make a plea to the Minister, even if he cannot give me the answers that I might want to hear today, to go away and look at all those issues, which have been raised on both sides of the House.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Annette Brooke

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I want to wind up, because others want to get in before 10 pm.

We believe that such a proposal would introduce more clarity and accountability into the procedure. We have often been told—particularly by Government Members—that sunlight is the best disinfectant. We now have a chance, with our new clause, to let a bit of sunlight into the DCLG. We believe that both our new clauses would improve the system no end. It might help, Mr Amess, if I give the Committee notice that we will seek a vote on new clause 7. I commend new clause 5 to the Committee.

[Annette Brooke]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I wish to make a few brief comments.

It is important that a local government body of councils should have a position on all the decision making, be it on the tariffs, the top-up or the levy or in relation to resetting. I do not know how formal that arrangement needs to be, but it is important to recognise that the information needs to come from a cross-section of local councils. Of course, we already have the Local Government Association, which is in a position to take such an overall viewpoint.

We have had some useful discussions about the length of the set-up period. It is fairly clear that no one here knows what the ideal period would be. I feel instinctively that 10 years is rather too long, but I recognise that we need a period of stability in order to make other measures work and to create incentives. I therefore hope that the Minister will assure us that a great deal of work will be done on this before we get to the regulations. I have a preference for a period of about five years, but I would also like an assurance that the Minister would have the power to reset, having listened to the LGA and other bodies, should something obviously have gone dramatically wrong. We have heard a great deal about uncertainty and, yes, there is bound to be uncertainty involved in a change of this magnitude, but the main thing for me is that we ensure that there is a safety net in place for ourselves, as decision makers.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Annette Brooke

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

The Minister is right to say that the clause sets out the framework for the Bill, and that earlier we debated most of the issues between us. I welcome the fact that the regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in the House. That is helpful, but we stick to our view that the Government are trying to introduce the provisions in the Bill too fast and that there is still a great deal of uncertainty for local councils. We will debate those issues on further amendments so I shall not detain the Committee now.

[Annette Brooke]

I want to place on record, in the debate on clause 1, how important it is to reform local government finance, to do it in a timely fashion and to do it in such a way that it both incentivises and equalises. Those principles are firmly embodied in the framework. We have heard it said that the retention of business rates will not incentivise. I wonder why the previous Government introduced LABGI—the local authority business growth incentives scheme—which rewarded local government for business expansion, but not very efficiently. It was not a built-in system, which has to be better. I therefore found some of the comments odd, in the light of that recent policy.