Bloody Sunday Inquiry (Report)

Lord Swire Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Eric Joyce]

I thank my hon. Friend and take note of what he says. I take pleasure in agreeing with his comments about our right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen. Much has been said during the debate about future inquiries. Labour Members recognise that there will be a demand for them, although we have to bear in mind the important cost implications. Of course, we think that the Government should come back to us on this issue. I think that many people take that general view. Although some want to move ahead without inquiries, Labour Members do not fully agree with that, although we understand the sentiment of the argument.

The Select Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), was the Opposition spokesman when the present Government were in opposition. He noted that many people assumed in the first instance that the Saville inquiry would take only a year or two. He also noted that the original assumption was that it would cost about £11 million, of which £1 million would be for lawyers. I do not know exactly how much of a lawyer we get for £1 million, but it was certainly not as much as proved necessary for the Saville inquiry. The hon. Gentleman rightly drew attention to the eventual cost for lawyers as more than £100 million. He reminded us of the tragic dimension of the waste of human lives on all sides, and noted how wider lessons can be learned by other parts of the world. He referred to the visit last week by Rwandan politicians to his constituency and then to Belfast. I had the privilege of meeting those very same people. This is indicative of the fact that, at some stage, people can learn wider lessons from what happened in Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) told the House about what I view, frankly, as a shocking experience; it is certainly outwith the experience of most Members, other than those representing Northern Ireland. He mentioned what happened through a Facebook site. He reminded us of some of the IRA’s early victims, including the first soldier to die in Derry. The hon. Gentleman complained that Lord Saville did not fully contextualise the circumstances of the day. He told us that “murder, mayhem and terror” were “rife” and referred to the fact that two police officers were murdered only days before one was buried on the day of Bloody Sunday itself. He took the view that further inquiries would not lead to progress.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) praised the former Prime Ministers John Major and Tony Blair for their role in establishing the inquiry. She welcomed the Prime Minister’s statement of apology, which she described as a great comfort to the families, to people throughout Northern Ireland, and to people in the south. I believe that it was also a comfort to people in Scotland, England and Wales. The hon. Lady mentioned other cases, including those of Rosemary Nelson, McGurk’s bar and Ballymurphy, and called for the innocence of those killed unlawfully to be properly declared in future. She supported the call of many other Members for further inquiries where appropriate.

The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) is probably the only Member who was serving in Northern Ireland at the time. He has a prestigious military record and has commanded a regiment, which is important in the context of today’s debate. For that reason, his words bore a particular significance. He described the shortcomings of kit and training in the early years of British Army deployment in Northern Ireland. He praised his regimental colleagues, and said that Bloody Sunday was both a disgrace and an aberration. He rightly described it as a terrible failure at the level of battalion command.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) made the important point that justice would be seen and interpreted in different ways by different people. He counselled against measuring the success or otherwise of inquiries simply in terms of time or money.

The hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer)—like his hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham—has a long and prestigious military record, and, crucially, has also commanded a regiment. He had some specific comments to make about the commanding officer on Bloody Sunday. He made particular criticism of Colonel Derek Wilford, the commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, the Parachute Regiment, and referred to an interview that he conducted with him on the BBC’s “Today” programme. I remember that interview very well. I believe it took place in 1999.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

The hon. Gentleman is too young to remember it.

[Eric Joyce]

I think that I am slightly older than the hon. Gentleman, so that is very nice of him.

I recall the interview vividly. The hon. Member for Newark, who was working as a journalist on “Today”, had persuaded Colonel Wilford to appear on the programme. It was staggering that, after all those years and after everyone’s questions about Widgery, he did not regret anything for a moment. That was the most astonishing and disgraceful thing that one could possibly imagine, and it has stuck in my mind through the years. It is true that we did not know then what we know now, but it was a remarkable interview none the less, and I remember the hon. Member for Newark’s part in it very well.

The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) strongly welcomed the outcome of the report on behalf of all the families affected. He condemned the Widgery report as essentially part of a propaganda war. He also condemned those who had been guilty of paramilitary violence over the years. He criticised the Saville cost overrun, and, like other Members, referred particularly to lawyers’ fees. He also echoed other Members in saying that something was amiss—I am putting it mildly—in respect of command and control in the Parachute Regiment. I believe that that is widely accepted today.

The hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) made a moving speech describing his own experience of serving in Northern Ireland as a private soldier with the Duke of Wellington’s Regiment. He reminded us of the sacrifice made by British Army troops over the years, and stressed that although Bloody Sunday besmirched the reputation of the Army, Support Company of the Parachute Regiment on that day did not represent the standards of the Army as a whole then or, in particular, since then. I think that we can all agree with that.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that he strongly supported the peace process, but criticised the cost of the inquiry. He felt that many would think the outcome a political gesture, and said that there had been no justice for the workmen killed at Bessbrook, or for his cousin, a serving UDR officer, and his colleague, who were killed on the same day and at the same time by the Provisional IRA. I think it fair to say that the essence of the hon. Gentleman’s argument was that the inquiry process as a whole—including the Saville inquiry and any putative future inquiries—was one-sided by its very nature.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) read, memorably, a sombre roll-call of those who were injured and killed on Bloody Sunday, and asked what would happen in terms of follow-through in relation to issues such as possible perjury, other possible prosecutions, and lessons learned at the Northern Ireland Office and the Ministry of Defence. He specifically spoke about the Parachute Regiment at the time of Bloody Sunday. He said the Saville report left questions unanswered and he asked if Colonel Wilford could be stripped of his OBE. I have heard serving officers ask the same question, although it is not necessarily what everyone would want; different people have different opinions, and these events seem a long time ago now. I had understood until very recently—yesterday in fact—that Colonel Wilford had died. That was reported on the BBC, but apparently when he died he only went to Belgium. I have been to Belgium and it is not such a bad place. He is still alive and well therefore, and he can readily be stripped of his OBE if people think that is appropriate. That is a matter for others, however.

The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) noted the sacrifices made by British troops in Northern Ireland over the years, and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) felt lawyers should not charge full fees and we should keep down the costs of such inquiries. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) felt the Widgery inquiry had been profoundly weak because of Widgery’s own experiences at the time and the assumptions he would have had and would have brought with him to his inquiry. He also praised the Saville inquiry unreservedly, apart from a technical reservation or two.

My right hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston and others asked a number of questions. Those questions do not raise doubts about the great value of the Saville inquiry report; that goes without saying. I think we all agree about its great value; the families certainly do, as do the people of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. However, some important matters follow on from the report. Perhaps chief among them are questions about holding other inquiries, including on Finucane. I hope the Minister will be able to say in his reply to the debate when progress will be made in coming to decisions on those matters.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

This has been an extremely welcome and well-informed debate, which has honoured the commitment given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that the House would have an opportunity to debate this important report in detail. I would like to start by recording my gratitude for the supportive words of the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward), and the new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce), on the Government’s response to this report. I also welcome the right hon. Gentleman back to his role, and in particular I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as shadow Minister, a post which I am sure he will enjoy very much.

It is important that we approach these very sensitive issues in a bipartisan manner, and I am sure we can rely on the Opposition spokesmen to continue to do so. Having said that, however, their words this afternoon might have carried greater generosity if they had acknowledged the work done in the peace process by John Major and the Conservative party. Next week is, of course, the 25th anniversary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement.

[Chris Ruane]

rose—

[Mr Swire]

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman as he did not speak in the debate and I must make progress.

The right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and the hon. Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised the issue of prosecutions. I remind them that prosecutions are not a matter for government. It is for the independent prosecution authorities to consider such issues. It would be completely inappropriate for the Government to intervene by pressurising the prosecution service to provide a deadline. That would clearly compromise the independence of the process.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the lessons learned by the Army. As the Chief of the Defence Staff said in the light of Lord Saville’s report, the way the Army is trained, the way it works and the way it operates have all changed significantly, and we should not forget that during the 38 years of Operation Banner in Northern Ireland the majority of the military who took part in that operation, often on several tours, did so with professionalism and restraint.

In response to comments by the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Members for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and for Foyle, I can confirm that, having considered the views expressed in this debate and the debate in the other place, my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Defence will shortly write to the Prime Minister on issues arising from the report. A copy of the letter will be placed in the Library of the House.

The right hon. Members for St Helens South and Whiston and for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), and the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West raised the issue of dealing with the past. This Government promptly published the summary of responses to the Eames-Bradley report in July this year—if I may say so, that was perhaps in contrast to the previous Secretary of State, who now criticises us for inaction despite sitting on the responses for many months prior to the general election. I wish to put on the record my thanks to the noble and right reverend Lord Eames, to Denis Bradley and to the other members of the group.

[Mr Woodward]

Just for the record, I would advise the Minister to look a little more closely at the reasons why we did not publish the responses to the public consultation. We did not do so precisely because it was more sensible to await the publication of Lord Saville’s report, as it would then be possible to make a sensible decision on how to proceed when one can hold the two together. If the Minister pleads for bipartisan support, he should avoid cheap political point scoring in this debate.

[Mr Swire]

The shadow Secretary of State is at least consistent in so much as he received the responses back in October 2009. I was perhaps trying to draw attention to the rapid progress we have made on many fronts since taking office, given that we were accused earlier in the debate of stalling on so many of these issues.

The Eames-Bradley report was a significant piece of work that has made an important contribution to the debate on dealing with the past. The responses to the report we published did, however, show the current lack of consensus on any wider process. But we have continued to listen to the views of victims and organisations from across the community to find a way forward. There is no question of the Government attempting to close down the past. We will continue to be measured and sensitive in our approach. As we continue to engage on the potential for wider mechanisms, we should also acknowledge the ongoing work to address the legacy of the past. I pay tribute in particular to the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, which has achieved very high satisfaction rates among families who have received reports. I say to the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) that it is not for the Government to alter the HET’s remit.

The right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and the right hon. Member for Torfaen, himself a distinguished former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, raised the Finucane case. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be meeting the Finucane family very shortly, and it is right that we talk to the family in the first instance, before commenting publicly.

A number of hon. Members made important points about the distinguished service of the vast majority of soldiers who served in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friends the Members for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) and for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), in a particularly passionate and moving speech, made their personal experiences come to life. They described the difficult and often frightening circumstances in which we asked our young soldiers—some very young—to serve, sometimes woefully underprepared, in Northern Ireland during the troubles. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), in a very good speech, was right to remind us of the tragic murders by terrorists of two Members of this House, Airey Neave and Ian Gow.

The Government are clear that Bloody Sunday is not the defining story of the Army’s service in Northern Ireland. We should not forget, and we will never forget, that more than 1,000 members of the security forces lost their lives, and many thousands more were injured, in upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. I recently met a number of ex-servicemen and heard for myself their continuing trauma and suffering. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in his opening statement and as was reiterated by my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), we owe an immense debt of gratitude to all those who served in the security forces.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) highlighted the importance of bringing closure to the families of those killed by terrorists. The HET is investigating all 3,268 cases from the troubles, including the deaths of police officers and soldiers killed by terrorists. The Government strongly support the HET’s important work and the vital work of community and victims’ groups in providing help and support to the victims of the troubles.

A number of hon. Members, notably my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the distinguished Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, on which I once had the honour to serve, and perhaps coincidentally, other members of his Committee, were critical of the cost of the report. Of course, as we heard this afternoon, no one could have anticipated that the inquiry would take 12 years or cost more than £191 million. Our views on that are by now well known and well documented.

The Government have been clear that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries, but on taking office we separated our views on the process from the substance of the report’s findings. It was right that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took responsibility, on behalf of the Government, in responding to Lord Saville’s clear and shocking findings.

The hon. Member for South Down mentioned public inquiries. The Government have been clear, as I said, that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries. This is not an issue solely about public finances. Selecting a small number of legacy cases to be the subject of public inquiries creates an uneven process that cannot adequately address the legacy of a conflict that resulted in more than 3,500 deaths.

With reference to the report, the state must always be determined to hold itself to account. We should never judge ourselves by the same standards as terrorists. The Government are clear that we do not uphold the honour of all those who served with such bravery and professionalism in Northern Ireland by hiding from the truth or by defending the indefensible.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) spoke about the context of the events of Bloody Sunday. I was slightly perplexed by this point. I should point out to him that Lord Saville covers the events leading up to Bloody Sunday in great detail in volume 1 of the report. I recommend reading those chapters, if right hon. and hon. Members are not tempted to read the rest, because they provide the clearest insight to the events in Northern Ireland surrounding internment and the events on Bloody Sunday. That was well précised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips).

The hon. Members for East Londonderry, for Strangford and for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised the conclusions relating to Martin McGuinness. It is for Mr McGuinness to answer questions about the findings relating to him. The report is clear in its conclusions about him. It specifically finds that he was present and probably armed with a

“sub-machine gun”,

but states that

“we are sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.”

The Government are clear that there was never any justification for the brutal campaigns waged by terrorists. As the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston and my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) said, there is no justification, nor can there be, for the actions of residual terrorist groups trying to drag Northern Ireland back to the past.

The hon. Members for South Down and for Strangford were among those who mentioned Ballymurphy. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I met the Ballymurphy families last month. Their stories were powerful and moving, and we both expressed our sympathy for their loss. We continue to encourage the families to co-operate with the ongoing HET investigation into the case. The HET is completely independent of the Government. I understand that the families recently made representations to the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland on the re-opening of inquests.

The hon. Member for Foyle made a typically powerful, solemn and heartfelt speech in which he paid solemn tribute to those who were killed and injured on Bloody Sunday. I thank him again for his comments on my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s statement and pay tribute to him for the support and encouragement that he has provided to the families over the years as a hard-working constituency MP.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct to point out the shocking conclusions in the report. Lord Saville’s report speaks for itself. In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s point about the victims, let me reiterate what Lord Saville concluded. He said that

“none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury, or indeed was doing anything else that could on any view justify their shooting.”

The hon. Gentleman raised the matter of the removal of an honour given to Lieutenant Colonel Wilford. That would be a matter for the Ministry of Defence in the first instance and ultimately for the honours forfeiture committee, but I understand that honours are not normally rescinded unless the person concerned has been sentenced to imprisonment after conviction in a criminal court or formally censured by a regulatory body.

The hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of compensation. I know that there are a range of different views among victims of the troubles about financial payments. I understand that the victims commissioners are conducting a wide examination of victims’ needs and how best to address them, including the issue of compensation.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann raised the role of the Irish Government. The actions of the Irish Government are of course a matter for them, but I would draw hon. Members’ attention to the Taoiseach’s commitment to contribute to a reconciliation process. I welcome that commitment, as I do the very close relationship that we have with the Government in Dublin.

[Mark Durkan]

Will the Minister acknowledge that Irish Governments have successively, no matter what party was in government—not just the current Taoiseach but previous Taoisigh and Ministers for Foreign Affairs—provided particular support to the Bloody Sunday families? A dossier submitted by the Irish Government helped to lead to the establishment of the inquiry and the current Minister for Foreign Affairs has been particularly supportive. He is particularly in the thoughts of the families this week given the personal and family grief that he is going through, as he buried his young daughter yesterday.

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman is right, and our heart goes out to him. The Secretary of State and I have written to him at this ghastly time.

Let me conclude by reiterating the Government’s unambiguous position on this report. What happened on Bloody Sunday was unjustified and unjustifiable. The Government are deeply sorry for what happened. The wider challenge that we all face is to ensure that the past is dealt with in a sensitive manner that allows Northern Ireland to move forward to a genuinely shared future.

I am sure the whole House will join me in acknowledging the enormous strides forward that Northern Ireland has taken. As we look back on the terrible events of 38 years ago, we must be thankful that Northern Ireland is now a very different place, but, as some right hon. and hon. Members pointed out, challenges still remain. The Government are determined to play our part in helping to ensure that the future for Northern Ireland is one which is peaceful and based on trust and confidence across the community.

I hope that Lord Saville’s report has, to use a quote adopted by the families, set the truth free. In doing so, it has helped to bring to a close a painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s troubled past. Let me finish by reiterating the words of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister:

“Northern Ireland has been transformed over the past 20 years and all of us in Westminster and Stormont must continue that work of change, coming together with all the people of Northern Ireland, to build a stable, peaceful, prosperous and shared future.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 742.]

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of the Report of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.