Legal Advice: Prorogation

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

If the Prime Minister had wished to prevent this House from debating Brexit, he would have prorogued it from 5 September to 14 October. Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that the Government were blind to the possibility that in the first few days of resumption after 4 September it was not possible that exactly what happened would happen? If we had wished to close down all debate and prevent the option of legislation, which was ultimately taken by this House with the consent of Mr Speaker, we could have prorogued it from the 5th, but we did not. Furthermore, from 14 October there would have been two and a half more weeks for this House to act. With respect, all this talk about a coup is just nonsense—inflamed political tripe, invented and inflated so that this gang can justify clinging to the Opposition green Benches for another few undeserved weeks. That is what it is all about.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The authors of this failed political trick—the Prime Minister and Dominic Cummings—have form in treating Parliament with contempt. What is truly contemptible and cowardly is Dominic Cummings, who refuses to give evidence to a Select Committee and has been found in contempt of Parliament, hiding behind the skirts of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is supporting an individual who works for the Government but who will not give evidence to a Select Committee. Does the Attorney General think that that is a respectable position?

[The Attorney General]

I am not sure that that is a question for the Attorney General. I am sure the hon. Gentleman can find somebody who is able to deal with it better than I could, but what I will say is that attacking people who cannot answer for themselves in this House is not appropriate and I would not choose to do it myself.

United Kingdom’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Friday 29th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

I will not give way now, but I will give way to Members in due course. I want to set out the choice before the House.

As the motion acknowledges, the political declaration is open to change. The Union has accepted that it is open to negotiating change and that it will consent to discuss it, and so the House is undergoing a process at the moment of seeing whether a stable majority can be found for any political solution for the future. Of course, the Government respect that process: they acknowledge that it is continuing and they accept therefore that further steps will be necessary to approve the political declaration in this House.

This House will have to ratify not only the withdrawal agreement, but the political declaration. So the Government will give consideration as to precisely how the full package will be approved with the political declaration. One option will be to introduce the EU withdrawal implementation agreement Bill before this House. If this agreement is approved today, the Government will introduce the Bill within the next few days.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Attorney General for giving way. Does he agree with me that the motion today flatly contradicts the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which specifically provides that both the political declaration and the withdrawal agreement must be in place before we comply with the Act?

[The Attorney General]

As the motion notes, this is not purporting to be a section 13(1) vote. This is simply designed to afford the House the chance of taking advantage of the legal right established by the Council decision. It is not a vote under section 13. There is nothing unlawful and certainly nothing procedurally improper about it. It is done to afford the House this chance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), with whom, he will not be surprised to hear, I disagree. I did, however, vote with him to trigger article 50 two years ago. In my speech during that debate, I told the Prime Minister that she needed to reach out across the Chamber to create consensus on Brexit. I also told colleagues in the Labour party that they also needed to reach out to find consensus on Brexit. Since that day, the Prime Minister has achieved no consensus at all, which is why we are having this debate today, 29 March, the last day.

I commend the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) for the procedure he started and that we managed to get through earlier this week. I think that it took us forward, for the first time in a long time, in trying to find a solution to this hugely difficult problem.

There are questions about democratic legitimacy and there are important issues that divide fundamentally all our constituents, and we know that Brexit means different things for different people. Parliamentarians on both sides of the Chamber must seek consensus. For me, that meant supporting, for the first time, the proposal suggested by the Beckett motion earlier this week, which is for a referendum. I had been very reluctant to do so because I had come around to the position adopted by the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke)—on which he has been sensibly consistent for a very long time—that referendums are very bad things.

We do not have a solution before us today. What we have is something that, I must confess, I contemplated at one stage. In fact, I discussed it with our shadow spokesman for Brexit, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). [Interruption.] Please do not interrupt me. I did consider this myself, but then I looked at the law. What the law says in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act is that these issues have to be considered together. Furthermore, the Prime Minister consistently said until she reached the last day that these issues must be considered together.

We have also seen a beauty parade of cynical individuals seeking personal advancement within the Conservative party, reversing their position today because their competitors have reversed position. The honest challenges that we are seeking as Members of Parliament are not being supported. What we need to do, and what I will do, is vote against the motion today. Then, on Monday, I will be looking for consensus, so that this Parliament can begin to take back control and act responsibly, as the Prime Minister has singularly failed to do. We could have achieved consensus across these Benches months—even years—ago. The Prime Minister has not sought it. Parliament needs to do it now.

Northern Ireland Backstop

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

Indeed, the Government listened very carefully when the House passed the so-called Brady amendment and have pursued the strands of work that were encouraged by hon. Members. That continues, and I am confident that it will bear fruit.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the Solicitor General please confirm my view that the Prime Minister’s withdrawal agreement creates a different set of trade rules applying on each side of the Irish sea?

[The Solicitor General]

Without going through the detail of the protocol, the hon. Gentleman knows that the particular construct of the protocol meant that, for certain items of trade, Northern Ireland was treated as a member of the single market. There would be an effective border if Great Britain changed its rules and there was a difference between the two. That is not our intention. I need not recite the matter any further. He knows that that is one reason why we have been looking carefully again at the backstop bearing in mind the decisions made by this House. It is time for him to come forward, be a statesman and vote for the deal.

Withdrawal Agreement: Legal Position

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

My hon. Friend must understand that we cannot look at this simply as a question of the traffic of goods between the Republic and Northern Ireland. The stated objectives are to protect in all its dimensions the integration that has taken place between Northern Ireland and the Republic—in health treatment, in education, in cultural activities—and all these activities are to be protected. The Government of the United Kingdom have made a solemn and good faith pledge to the Republic of Ireland and to the European Union that they will preserve that integration in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. What we have to do is find a way of doing so that is consistent with the interests of the Union and of the United Kingdom. The backstop is a temporary solution. We will find another, and it will not, except by the consent of the Stormont institutions, have the same problems that the backstop has.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

What is the Attorney General’s authority for the proposition that the opinion of a single Member of Parliament, however eminent, can override a decision made by the House of Commons?

[The Attorney General]

I think I have made it plain that I am not seeking to suppose that I can override the decision of the House of Commons. The House has at its disposal—[Interruption.] Hear me out. The House has at its disposal the means by which to enforce its will. It can bring forward a motion of contempt, seek to have that motion passed and seek, through the Committee of Privileges or whichever way it is appropriately done, to impose a sanction. I fully accept that. I do not set myself up contrary to the House; I simply say that I cannot compromise the public interest, and if I had my personal desire—

[Ian C. Lucas]

indicated dissent.

[The Attorney General]

The hon. Gentleman is shaking his head. Why would he not believe me? Does he think I want to be in this position? Does he really think that if there were not some fundamental bar of principle against my disclosing anything I might have given to the Government, I would not immediately volunteer it to him and all hon. Members opposite? I am only doing it to protect us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 29th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Tracey Crouch]

It would always be a pleasure to visit my hon. Friend in Swindon, as I did before the general election. If he has the opportunity over the next week, I encourage him and other hon. Members to find out where their local school games are and to go along and visit them, because they are providing a real way of changing attitudes towards sport and physical activity.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

15. Disabled young people in Wrexham benefit hugely from the trailblazing Wrexham disabled viewing platforms at the football ground, and the premiership really needs to learn from Wrexham. What progress has been made in providing excellent facilities for disabled young people to view football matches?

[Tracey Crouch]

In the sports strategy we believe that giving people with disabilities access to sport is a way to get them engaged with sport. I expect the final report from the Premier League on how those clubs have met their pledge to meet accessible stadia guidelines to be published towards the end of August or early September.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

To answer the hon. Lady’s latter point first, that is obviously an operational matter for the police, but the general principles and policy issues arising from it are important. That is why the Attorney General and I take great interest in the important work of the RASSO units—the specialist prosecutors—that work with the police at an early stage to identify the sort of evidence that is needed to secure convictions. The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise that point.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

2. What steps the Serious Fraud Office is taking to help prevent serious fraud and other economic crimes.

[The Attorney General (Jeremy Wright)]

Over the past 18 months the Serious Fraud Office has secured, for example, its first contested conviction for rate rigging, its first conviction of a corporation for offences involving bribery of foreign officials and its first deferred prosecution agreement.

[Ian C. Lucas]

But in 2015, as a result of the 3,000 cases reported to the dedicated fraud line, the SFO opened only three cases. What is the reality of why the SFO does so much less than the Government’s rhetoric suggests?

[The Attorney General]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I am sure, that there is more than one body in the system that prosecutes fraud. The Serious Fraud Office deals only with the most complex and difficult cases, so it is not surprising that of all the cases reported, not all of which will be prosecuted by anyone, it deals with only a small proportion. It is set up to deal with the most difficult and complex cases, and that is what it does.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

The hon. Gentleman will know that the court estate is not part of my responsibilities, but I congratulate him on the success of his representations. In relation to victims and witnesses, there are a number of things that need to be done. Some will come from the Ministry of Justice; some, as I have indicated, come from encouraging prosecutors to do their job of interacting with victims and witnesses in a more effective way. We are making progress on that. Better communication, as I said, is important. Better training for prosecutors in dealing with cases, particularly where vulnerable witnesses or children are involved, is important and we are doing that too. Some of the measures that we are taking, which I referred to earlier, in respect of ways in which victims give evidence can also help in ensuring that the experience is distressing as little as possible.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Judges and legal advisers play a crucial role in assisting vulnerable witnesses in court. Is the Attorney General aware of the profound distress and demoralisation among legal advisers about the increased pressure that they are under because of the imposition of continued legal aid cuts and the effect on courts?

[The Attorney General]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that legal aid is not part of my responsibilities, but I will say that in my experience—and, I am sure, in his—those who act in our courts on behalf of defendants and on behalf of the Crown do the very best they can to present the evidence clearly and give people the best possible experience of the trial process, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so. He makes an important point that when it comes to the cross-examination of young or vulnerable witnesses, both advocates and the judiciary have a role in ensuring that it is conducted in the right way. I hope and expect that they will continue to play their part in doing so.