European Union (Withdrawal) Acts
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(4 years, 6 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael Gove)
Our democracy is a precious thing, and this Parliament is a special place. Our democracy depends on respect for difference, and this Parliament thrives on respecting the sincerity and the commitment to public service of every Member.
That is why I know that deciding how to vote today will have been difficult for many Members, and it is important we all recognise that those who argued to remain, and who still argue that that is the best outcome, do so as patriots, but they take a different view from some of us. And we should all recognise that those who argued to leave, who have consistently argued that we should leave and who have argued for a better deal, are arguing for what they believe is best for our country.
I respect those who have argued for both positions, but I respect most of all the many Members of this House who argued that we should remain, and who during the course of that campaign believed it was the best course for the country, but who now recognise that, the people having spoken, the verdict must be respected.
Michael Gove
Not yet.
In a debate characterised by many brilliant and passionate speeches, the speech that stood out for me was that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). She argued for remain, but she also recognises that, when the people have spoken, their verdict has to be respected. We have seen that not only from Conservative Members but from Members of all parties, such as the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn) and the right hon. Members for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) and for Rother Valley (Sir Kevin Barron). They all argued that we should remain, but now they recognise that there is something more precious than being a leaver or a remainer: being a democrat.
What unites us in this House is that we are democrats, and we voted in this House of Commons to have a referendum. We voted in this House of Commons to say that we would respect the verdict of the people. We voted overwhelmingly for article 50, which honoured that referendum result and said that we would leave. How will it look to those who sent us here if we say to them now, “We made those sacred promises, but now we choose to dishonour them”?
Michael Gove
No.
There will be individuals on both sides of the House who have specific qualms and concerns about this deal, but the time has come for us to decide. None of us in a country that voted 52:48, none of us in a House of 650 Members and none of us in a country of 65 million people can ensure that we have our own perfect Brexit.
Michael Gove
No.
What we can do is be prepared to put aside our perfect for the sake of the common good, and that is what the public want us to do.
The right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) laid out some of his concerns about the political declaration, but he knows and we know that if we vote today for the deal—if we vote for this withdrawal agreement—we can then move on to ensure that the future economic partnership we all want can be framed in the best interests of the British people.
Michael Gove
I will not give way, but I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s persistence. [Interruption.]
Michael Gove
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Every party and every voice in this House will have equal weight and equal value in the discussion on our future economic partnership, making sure that we can deliver a Brexit deal that delivers for the 52% and for the 48%. That is our intention.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Michael Gove
The Government are absolutely committed to ensuring that we have a deal, to ensuring that we obey the law, and to ensuring that we respect the voices of all those in this House. Let me say firmly from this Dispatch Box that this Government are committed to ensuring that we have a deal, and the best way of getting that deal, leaving on 31 October and being able to move on to the other issues, that the people of this country want us to discuss, is by accepting the honourable motives of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset but recognising that, were we to accept his amendment, we would not have a meaningful vote today. That would not unlock the door to a deal being passed. We would have voted, I am afraid, in the terms of the motion, for more delay.
Michael Gove
No.
On that basis, I urge everyone who wants us to honour the referendum mandate to recognise that the amendment, however sincerely it has been put forward, is unnecessary.
What is necessary now is for us to reach a moment of decision. Lord Judge, the leader of the Cross-Bench peers—in some respects, the voice of moderation in the other place—has said that the time has passed for people to quibble and question the precise terms of this deal. He, a former Lord Chief Justice, has said that Parliament needs to “get on with it”, because otherwise there will be “profound damage” to public confidence in this place.
That is the question that every Member of this House must ask. How will our constituents feel if we vote to support the deal without the amendment? They will feel that a cloud has been lifted; that Parliament has listened to them with respect; and that the vote in 2016, which we promised to honour, has, after three and half years of deadlock and division, been honoured by a House that at last is ready to unite. That is the choice that faces us all.
If we do not vote for the deal without the amendment, I am afraid that all those who sent us here, who are watching our deliberations, will say that Parliament has failed to meet the moment; that Parliament has failed to rise to the occasion; that Parliament has failed to ensure that an important democratic vote takes place; and that the most important vote, with the greatest number of votes cast for any proposition in our history, will be delayed and dishonoured, and will not be delivered. [Interruption.] That is why I urge everyone in this House to recognise that our first duty—[Interruption]—is to the principle that underpins this place—
Mr Speaker
Order. I said no! The right hon. Gentleman is responding to the debate, and he will do so to a conclusion.
European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill
Ian C. Lucas ExcerptsWednesday 4th September 2019
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 View all European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 4 September 2019 - (4 Sep 2019)
Stephen Kinnock
I thank the Father of the House. Like many Members, I wish that crystal balls had been handed out when we first came to this place. Unfortunately, that was not the case. It goes back to what he said earlier—Parliament and the debate have been captured by the extremes, and we have to move on from that. We have to break the deadlock and find a sustainable way of preventing no deal, and the way to do that is to leave with a deal.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend and his colleagues have put forward a very interesting amendment indeed. Could he clarify what discussions he has had with the Opposition Front Benchers about the amendments and what response he has had from them?
Stephen Kinnock
I recognise my hon. Friend’s point, but at present I have not had a conversation with our Front Benchers on this topic.
My party’s Brexit spokesperson, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), made it clear in an interview on last weekend’s Marr show that Labour only withdrew from the talks due to the inability of the former Prime Minister to deliver her own party. He stated:
“We took a judgement call that some of the proposals that the Prime Minister put forward she would not be able to get through her own party”.
I think this confirms that our side was ready to compromise on a deal if the Prime Minister could have delivered her own party. The good will was clearly there. Now all the focus should be on finding a way to put that deal back on the table, to study it, to debate it, to amend it, to vote on it, and ultimately to use it as the basic vehicle for sorting out the shambolic situation we find ourselves in.
EU: Withdrawal and Future Relationship (Motions)
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(5 years, 1 month ago)
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Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Ind)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford). I suggest that there is the real rub of what is going on, or the danger we face tonight if we do not look at what is behind what seems like a lot of sensible compromise. My real fear is that unless we vote for motions (E) and (G), which I will vote for, the Government will, as the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) phrased it, put it in the bag and table yet again, for another vote, the Prime Minister’s withdrawal agreement and slip into the political declaration either the customs union or the so-called common market 2.0. I will not vote for the customs union because it does not deliver the frictionless trade that our manufacturing sector desperately needs. My concern about motion (D) is exactly that.
Anna Soubry
The hon. Gentleman says “Compromise”, and I hear exactly what he says, but it would not be in the withdrawal—
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(6 years ago)
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Suella Braverman
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The Government have been clear that there is mutual benefit in the UK’s involvement in Galileo, and we are working hard with our European partners to deliver this outcome. However, as the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy made clear in his letter to Ministers in the other 27 EU member states on 19 April, that involvement must be on terms that the UK considers acceptable, including being fair and open to the UK and UK industry. That is why the Prime Minister has announced that she will task engineering and space experts in the UK to develop options for a British global navigation satellite system that would safeguard our position in terms of navigation and timing information.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Successful space businesses such as Airbus provide thousands of jobs in the UK, and their success has been built on an open, free supply-chain system with the EU. How will the Minister obtain the agreement of EU partners for the continuation of that system?
Suella Braverman
There has been considerable engagement with Airbus. The Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), has met representatives from Airbus, and I have visited its site in Portsmouth. We want full access to Galileo, including the crucial secure elements that will help to guide British missiles should they be needed to keep us all safe. This is a commercial matter for Airbus, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment, but I can say that the Government have been in close contact and will continue to work with the entire UK space sector to do all that we can to ensure that the UK is able to contribute fully to the Galileo programme.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Davis
Good Lord, what a terrible thought.
The withdrawal and implementation Bill cannot be brought to the House until we have agreed the withdrawal agreement. The European Union negotiator expects that to be concluded in September or October 2018, which is probably right, so the Bill will be tabled after that date.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Sectors such as the automotive and aerospace sectors have succeeded in the UK because of the close regulatory alignment with our European partners. Is it the Secretary of State’s intention to seek as close alignment as possible in the future, or does he, like some Government Back Benchers, wish to break free from this regulatory regime?
Mr Davis
One of the fundamental components—indeed, possibly the most fundamental component—of the decision of the British people in the referendum was the decision to bring back control to this Parliament. That is what we will do over all sectors. It will then be for Parliament to decide whether it wants to continue to parallel, to have mutual recognition, to have mutual arrangements or to copy European Union law. We will seek to put in place mechanisms that give Parliament maximum freedom, while also allowing maximum access to the single market.
European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(7 years, 3 months ago)
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Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
l am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena). I wish to pick up on what he said about unity in his peroration.
There are moments in our history that mark a real shift in our country’s role in the world, and this Bill is one of them. Since the end of the second world war, the United Kingdom has increasingly shifted its focus in foreign policy towards Europe. That policy was followed in parallel with the gradual disengagement from our empire. It was a policy followed by the leadership of both main political parties at the time. We know that the Conservative party of Macmillan and Heath took the steps that led to the UK joining the European Community and, under Margaret Thatcher, the European single market. Dean Acheson said that Great Britain had lost an empire, but had not yet found a role.
In my political lifetime, we have seen our role as increasingly linked to the continent of Europe. This Bill marks a fundamental change in direction. For good or ill, the result of the referendum was clear: the majority of the UK wanted to leave the European Union. I voted for a referendum and I cannot see any justification for disregarding the result, despite the fact that I campaigned hard for us to remain in the European Union.
The Bill before us initiates the process of leaving the EU and, it seems, turning away from Europe. It is difficult to see how, at this point, the other members of the EU can see it otherwise. The question that then arises is this: what is our role going forward? It is really important that we consider that this evening. The Prime Minister has talked about the opportunities in the world, and there are indeed many. I attended an export forum in my own constituency yesterday and heard what exporting companies in Wrexham were doing.
What concerns me about the many representations that I have received is that they focus very little on the future, and more on the acrimony of the debate. What we need to do now is to accept the result. The speech from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) was extremely important, because it showed that the Labour party accepts the result of the referendum. I ask the Government Front-Bench team to take that into account in their future dealings with our party and with us as individuals. Much of the rhetoric that we have heard so far has focused on division. The Conservative party and the Government now need to reach out to the Labour party to try to get the best deal for our country when Britain leaves the European Union.
We have many advantages as a nation: our language, universities, innovation and culture. We must preserve those precious assets, but we also need to build a new, positive relationship with our European allies, albeit outside the European Union. Many of our best businesses, such as Airbus in my constituency in north Wales, have become successes within the EU because of their close relationship with other countries. We need to signal that we do not intend to deregulate in areas such as environmental standards, which have actually driven innovation in our automotive sector, for example, and built the success of our automotive industries.
There is a real concern among many of our constituents that the Government do not believe in labour standards for our people. The Government need to reach out and make it clear that they do and that they do not intend to use leaving the EU as a way of reducing the rights of the people of this country. If the Conservative party signalled that, the Labour party would show a far greater acceptance of the referendum result than we have shown today.
I know that this is difficult for many of my dear colleagues, but I am talking about the Labour party—the party I love—and its future here. We need to accept that Brexit is going to happen and work to forge the best possible way forward for our Labour party and the people we represent in the post-Brexit world. Please, let us put behind us the division—both in the Labour party and more broadly in the country. Let us reach out more and strive for more unity. We have to deal with the post-Brexit world. We cannot simply use the rest of the world as a market as we did when we became the first industrial nation. It is a more competitive world, with nations such as China and India stronger now than ever before. If we want to achieve, we have to work together.
Parliamentary Scrutiny of Leaving the EU
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Davis
No, I do not think so. The right hon. Gentleman asks a serious question. Part of the reasoning is that the Prime Minister feels, quite reasonably, that the people want the process to be under way. Indeed, if one believes opinion polls, that is what is going on. However, we do not want to do it immediately, unlike the leader of the Labour party, who said on 24 June that we should trigger it immediately—of course, now he has changed his mind. What we are doing is putting together our negotiating strategy, which requires an enormous amount of work—I will come back to that point—and some of it will become public as we go along.
I am determined, as would be expected, that Parliament will be fully and properly engaged in the discussion on how we make a success of Brexit. I therefore broadly welcome the motion, but with important caveats, and that is why the Government’s amendment is necessary. The first key point is that we must ensure that the decision that the people made on 23 June is fully respected. We also need to be explicit that, while we welcome parliamentary scrutiny, it must not be used as a vehicle to undermine the Government’s negotiating position or thwart the process of exit—both are important.
The negotiation will be complex and difficult, and we should do nothing to jeopardise it. As I said in my statement on Monday—the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) quoted me several times—the sovereignty of Parliament and its restoration is at the very heart of why the UK is withdrawing from the European Union. For decades, the primacy of the UK Parliament has been superseded by decisions made within EU institutions, but now, following the clear instruction of the voters in the referendum on 23 June, we can finally change that and put Parliament unequivocally in charge.
That is exactly why we announced plans for a great repeal Bill last week; it is a clear commitment to end the primacy of EU law. It will return sovereignty to the institutions of the United Kingdom, because that is what the referendum result was all about: taking control. Naturally, Parliament will oversee the passage of the Bill, which will allow us to ensure that our statute book is fit for purpose on the day we leave the EU. It will then be for Parliament alone to determine what changes to the law best suit the national interest.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I have long heard the right hon. Gentleman voice his support for parliamentary scrutiny. Will he therefore bring forward a vote in Parliament on the Government’s opening position and the terms that they will present for negotiation to the European Union?
Mr Davis
This is an area on which we have not talked to the devolved Administration yet. We will do so before we get to bringing such things back.
Such an attitude on the details of the negotiations is not taken simply by the Government. The Lords European Union Committee concluded:
“It is clear…that parliamentary scrutiny of the negotiations will have to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the desire for transparency, and on the other, the need to avoid undermining the UK’s negotiating position.”
This is hardly rocket science. It should hardly be controversial; it should be straightforward. At every stage of this process, I want this House to be engaged and updated. As I have made clear, we will observe the constitutional and legal conventions that apply to any new treaty on a new relationship with the European Union.
Mr Davis
I will give way in a moment.
I want to address the final part of the motion about this House being able properly to scrutinise Government plans for leaving the EU before article 50 is invoked. Article 50 sets out the process by which we leave the EU, which has been decided by the British people. Invoking it is a job for the Government. Leaving the EU is what the British people voted for on 23 June, and article 50 is how we do it.
Mr Davis
I think the hon. Gentleman will know that we have already made undertakings in relation to the 2020 round, which is of course the end of the European guarantee. Beyond that, I am quite sure the Treasury will be looking very hard at the necessary economics of such industries in all the devolved Administrations and, indeed, in England.
Edward Miliband
Why do I say that? It is because the plan, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) knows—he is nodding from a sedentary position—is actually for the great repeal Bill to entrench European law into British domestic law. All these laws that the leave campaign have honourably objected to for so many years will actually be put into British law. The notion that that is a proper means for this Parliament to take a view on the eventual outcome of the negotiation is also baloney, if I am allowed to say that in this House.
The four reasons that I have heard offered for why this House should not provide consent do not stack up. There is another reason, which could be the case—I really hope it is not—which is that the Government do not like the answer they will get if they ask this House for its consent. In other words, they do not believe there is a majority for hard Brexit in the House of Commons, so the thing they are desperate to avoid at all costs is getting the consent of this House, because they think they will end up in a negotiation in which they do not like the thing they are negotiating for. Well, I am afraid that is tough, because they need the consent and the confidence of this House on an issue as big as this, when there is no mandate from the referendum, certainly no mandate from the manifesto—which, let us remember, said yes to the single market—and no mandate for a Prime Minister who, let us not forget, was a remainer. I know she was a relatively silent remainer, but she advocated remain. She did not advocate leave and suddenly get swept to power, surfing on a wave of euphoria because she was in the leave campaign. She was in the remain campaign.
Ian C. Lucas
Does my right hon. Friend think there might be another explanation for the Government’s reluctance to put the matter to the House, which is that they cannot agree themselves what their opening position is?
Edward Miliband
That might well be the case. We only need to read the newspapers to see that if debates are not taking place clearly about the Government’s position in this House, they are certainly taking place clearly in the Cabinet, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to be in a slightly different position from some of his colleagues.
I want to conclude—because there are other people who want to speak in this debate—by returning to where I started. This issue goes so far beyond party politics and so far beyond whether we were for remain or leave in the referendum. It also goes so far beyond our tenure in this House, because the decisions we make in the next two or three years will have implications for decades to come, so I implore Members in all parts of the House, particularly those on the Government Benches. I know there will be pressure not to speak out—some of them have honourably done so—but I hope we will hold to the best traditions of this House as we think about our duties, because our duties are not about procedure.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I am one of those Members of Parliament who campaigned for a remain vote, but who has a constituency that voted to leave—it voted 59% to 41% to leave the European Union. I fully respect the views of my constituents. Adopting the words of the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), for whom I have great respect, I am going to try to be constructive. It is very important that we make it clear that we will be leaving the European Union. We now need to engage with our constituents on the difficult issues we need to face.
The central concern of my constituents related to the immigration rules that apply to EU citizens moving to the UK. They do not like the rules and want them changed. I was struck by the excellent speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire), who advocated passionately for the freedom of movement. The reality, however, is that we do not have freedom of movement in this country; we only have freedom of movement within the European Union. There are rules in place that apply, on a daily basis, to people who are not citizens of EU states. We have to be clear that in future there will be rules that will apply to EU citizens, and some of those rules are going to be very similar to the rules that apply to non-EU citizens today. If there was a proposal by anyone to have full freedom of movement to the UK, I suspect that most Members would disagree with that approach. The difficulty is that the Government are being vague and evasive about their current position. When I intervened on the Secretary of State I asked him to set out to the House the principles that will govern the rules that will apply to EU citizens. He did not do so and has not done so in any of the statements he has made to the House. It is imperative that the Government start to be explicit in setting out the principles that will govern the way in which individuals will come to the UK when we leave the European Union.
This is not a theoretical question. The Minister of State knows that Airbus is very important to my constituency, and last Friday I spoke to a Portuguese and a Spanish apprentice. Both of them asked me, “Will I be allowed to remain in the UK as an employee of Airbus in the future?” Earlier this afternoon, in connection with my role on the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, I spoke to a company involved in the creative industries, with offices in the United States, Berlin and the UK, that wanted to know about the position of its employees. These are explicit and real questions today.
I welcome the progress the Government have made on giving more information about their position, but they will come under relentless pressure, not just from Members of this House, but from business and individuals, to make their position clear. I never thought I would say this, but I was struck by the excellent speech by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), who said that the Prime Minister explicitly set out the position relating to justice reforms before negotiations were conducted. That is what the Government will have to do.
Mr Jones
I will not give way.
I have no doubt that the Bill will be subject to rigorous scrutiny by both Houses of Parliament during its passage. It will be for Parliament to determine what changes to the law in the great repeal Bill will best suit the national interest, but the national interest must be the paramount consideration for both the Government and Parliament.
We will shortly be entering into extensive and detailed negotiations about the terms of our withdrawal. It is entirely right that the Government should not damage our position in those negotiations by spelling out in fine detail what our negotiating position will be.
Mr Jones
I will not give way.
Nobody sensible would expect us to do so, least of all those with whom we will be negotiating. My right hon. Friend has already set out the broad aims of our negotiation, which include, crucially, regaining control of our borders and having the most open access possible to the European market, but I am sure that hon. Members will understand the practical realities of our withdrawal negotiations. Indeed, the House of Lords EU Committee has summarised what it considers to be the correct approach to parliamentary scrutiny:
“We acknowledge that certain elements of the forthcoming negotiations, particularly those relating to trade, may have to be conducted confidentially. We would expect parliamentary scrutiny of the negotiations to strike an appropriate balance between transparency and confidentiality, while achieving the overarching objective of holding the Government effectively to account.”
Ian C. Lucas
I will put to the right hon. Gentleman the question I put to the Secretary of State. If he believes in parliamentary sovereignty, will the Government please present their opening position to Parliament for scrutiny and a vote before they begin to conduct negotiations? Will he give the Chamber an assurance on that?
Mr Jones
The House will of course be fully engaged as matters progress, but I have to repeat to the hon. Gentleman—and I remind him that I have been more generous in giving way than was his colleague the hon. Member for Brent North—that he has to understand the element of confidentiality in the negotiations that was quite rightly identified by the House of Lords EU Committee. We fully agree that that balance will have to be struck, which is why we seek to amend the motion. We agree that there should be a transparent debate on the Government’s plans for leaving the EU and that there should be proper—
Exiting the European Union
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Davis
Before I answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, may I apologise to him for the late response to the letter that he wrote to me earlier in the summer? We did try to give him some facts in it.
In respect of the discussions with the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations, let me say this first up. There is a joint ministerial committee, in which the First Minister, or her nominee—whichever she wishes—has been offered a place, and that will be the process whereby we will look at all proposals. The Prime Minister has said that we will look at all proposals. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman upfront that—as I said to the First Minister when I spoke to her about it—I really cannot see how his proposed arrangement could be made to work, but we will look at it.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment. May I ask him a question about immigration controls? Do the United Kingdom Government propose to continue to differentiate between entry restrictions applying to citizens of the European Union and those applying to people from outside the EU?
Mr Davis
All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is this. My task is to bring the control of that process back to the Government and back to Parliament, and it is for the Government and for Parliament to decide how they use it. The simple truth is that I expect us to see a much more even-handed policy in the future than the one that we have now, but I think that we must wait until the negotiation is completed.