Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

I have said several times already in the course of these debates that there should be a greater drive towards equalisation. However, as we will debate under clause 9, I do not want the drawing of our constituencies to be merely mathematical. Other things must be taken into consideration.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

One factor that needs to be taken into consideration is that the United Kingdom is made of four distinct countries, with four distinct constitutional settlements. Therefore, to proceed on a purely mathematical basis is completely incorrect. We must take into account the constitutional settlements in place in the respective countries, a point of which I know my hon. Friend is very well aware.

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend has been making extremely sensible remarks on such issues ever since he and I were at university together, and he makes an important point now.

I say this to the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who has intervened three times: changing the boundaries in the way that he suggests will not of itself make the dramatic difference that he thinks it will make. My argument on clause 8 is that there is a real danger that the boundary commissions will be unable to redraw every single constituency in the land with proper diligence and sheer impartiality using a mathematical equation. Of course, they can bear other things in mind, but not if a proposed constituency strays outside the mathematical equation.

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[Mr Heath]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because he has completely demolished whatever case the hon. Member for Rhondda had for saying that the Boundary Commission’s resources were inadequate for its job.

Hon. Members who listened to the debate might also have felt that the hon. Member for Rhondda had tabled a second amendment of which they knew little. They certainly would not have heard that he wished to make the implementation of equal votes across the constituencies of the UK dependent on the referendum on the powers of the National Assembly for Wales. But his amendment would provide that nothing could change until after that referendum. Our difficulty with that is that these provisions have nothing to do with the devolved powers of the National Assembly for Wales: they are about putting the electors of Wales on the same basis as the electors of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is a question of fairness.

[Ian Lucas]

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that there are four different constitutional settlements within the United Kingdom and that those issues are central to the question of the constitutional arrangements relating to this House? Why is he presenting a Bill that is constitutionally illiterate?

[Mr Heath]

I know of no constitutional principle that says that voters in Wales should have twice the value of voters in Somerset. I do not understand that as a constitutional concept, and it is not one that I support. Why should Wales continue to be over-represented? Why should it be placed in that constitutional setting in eternity? Perhaps he can tell us.

[Ian Lucas]

The Parliamentary Secretary should recognise that the relationship between Wales and England is an historic one that depends closely on the managed constitutional relations between the two countries. The reality is that Wales is a small country that has a long and strong relationship with England, a much larger country. Wales has a distinct identity, and when he was on the Opposition Benches he recognised that through devolution. Why is he now jettisoning the distinct identity of Wales and treating the people of Wales in this way?

Public Bodies Reform

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. In my written statement and the list attached it, we have identified 40 bodies that are still under review, in many cases because a formal review has been launched but has not yet reached its end. The Chancellor’s comprehensive spending review, which I believe he will announce to the House next Wednesday, will set out the spending envelopes for all remaining bodies and place them under considerable financial rigour. For those that remain independent bodies there will be more transparency, which we have already started with the disclosure of higher salaries above £150,000. That has raised a number of questions about how those bodies are run.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Some of the most vulnerable people in Wrexham work at the local Remploy factory. What kind of Government is it who include two words—“under consideration”—about their jobs, and what consultation is the Department for Work and Pensions undertaking with people whose jobs the Government are threatening?

[Mr Maude]

To put it bluntly to the hon. Gentleman, it is a Government who are having to clear up an appalling mess left by his party, which left office spending £4 for every £3 in revenue. This coalition Government are having to reduce and eliminate a budget deficit that was created by his party with gross irresponsibility. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is undertaking a serious review of the future status of Remploy, and is very much aware of its good work and the valuable employment that it provides for many disabled people.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is right. I am glad that he finds my argument compelling, and I am sure that he will support the programme motion if Members feel the need to put it to a vote and test the opinion of the Committee.

It is true that the coalition agreement committed both coalition parties in the Government to supporting a referendum on the voting system, and the Government subsequently decided that 5 May next year was the right date. The House has already endorsed the principle of the Bill, and later this afternoon we will conduct a line-by-line scrutiny of it. I will be asking Members on both sides of the Committee to endorse the date, although I will expect support only from Members on this side.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous and very reasonable. In that spirit of reasonableness, will he have a word with his unreasonable colleague the Secretary of State for Wales, who is refusing to allow a Welsh Grand Committee debate on the implications for Wales of this major constitutional Bill? We have not been given any explanation for her decision. Would it not make sense to allow time for debate in a separate forum, to enable more time to be made available for debate in the Chamber?

[Mr Harper]

I simply do not recognise the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of my right hon. Friend the rather excellent Secretary of State for Wales. He will note that I have been joined in the Chamber by her Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who will be supporting me on the Bill. There will be adequate time in the five days that we have provided for debate on how the Bill affects Wales, in terms of both the boundary changes and the referendum, and I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman and his Welsh colleagues—including the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench—will acquit themselves well in speaking up for Wales during that debate.

The motion specifies the clauses and schedules that are to be debated, and the days on which they are to be debated. Beyond that, it will be for you, Mr Speaker, and for Members themselves, to decide how best to use the time. As I have already said in response to interventions, we have provided extra time on each day to allow for statements. On the fourth day, as we know, there will be a significant statement on the spending review, and having assumed that you will allow questions on it to run for a significant period, Mr Speaker, we have provided the necessary extra time.

I believe that the programme allows the Committee adequate time. I believe that it delivers on the promise that I made on Second Reading to allow the significant issues to be both debated and voted on, and I hope that Members on both sides of the Committee will feel able to support it.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas]

I absolutely agree. It is also important that we do not underestimate the public. Some say that voters cannot understand the different voting systems, but that is a very patronising position and does not bear scrutiny. Voters regularly manage to make the best of first past the post, for example, despite the fact that it fails to deliver seats that reflect the votes cast.

All the systems that appear in the question we suggest should be on the ballot paper have advantages and drawbacks, but none are so mind-bending that the public cannot be trusted to debate and, crucially, choose between them. We need to inject some health and optimism back into our political system, and we can do that if we give people the chance to have a real debate and a real choice. It should not be about whether or not there is sufficient agreement in this House for putting it to the public; it should be absolutely automatic that the public have the right to choose.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

If the Tories and their allies were interested in genuine reform, would they not have produced a draft constitutional reform Bill? We could all have discussed it and consulted the public on it. Is not the reality that this is a shabby political deal between the Tories and their allies on the Government Benches to fix political advantage? The only party that knows it would benefit from an alternative vote system is the Liberal Democrat party

[Caroline Lucas]

Unfortunately, I think that the hon. Member is right that this was a shabby political deal done in the very smoke-filled rooms that the coalition complain about.

Our political system is sick, I argue, and getting this question right provides the only road to real recovery. The system is sick because swing voters in just a tiny number of seats effectively decide who is going to run this country. It has resulted in the targeting of funding at marginal constituencies and voters in most other parts of the country being sidelined, if not ignored.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to do something that a ministerial career cannot long survive—speak for the Chancellor of the Exchequer on tax matters. I certainly undertake to continue the discussions with the Chancellor, which I have on all occasions, about how he can further our general programme to favour community groups in the voluntary sector. That is high on his agenda as well as ours.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that increasing the rate of VAT for charities will help them deal with the real difficulties of over-regulation?

[Mr Letwin]

It appears that there is a combined effort on the Labour Benches to persuade me to adopt the role of a Treasury Minister, which I am not and cannot do. Of course, we are conscious of the burdens that fall on the voluntary sector. However, for many people in that sector, a framework that enables them to do what they do best, in a way that achieves results, is what really counts. My response to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) is the response to that.

Constitution and Home Affairs

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Monday 7th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I should like to make a bit of progress if I may.

We also plan to strengthen the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, too, by implementing recommendations from the Calman commission’s final report. Equally, Wales will get a referendum on further devolution—a decision that will be taken by the Welsh people.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman says that there will be a referendum in Wales on the All Wales Convention’s proposals. Does he support a yes vote in that referendum, and do the Government support a yes vote in that referendum?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes, the Government do support a yes vote in that referendum. As for the referendum’s timing, as the hon. Gentleman may know, the Secretary of State for Wales and the First Minister are meeting today, with a view to identifying a date—most likely, in the first few months of next year—to hold that referendum.

Here in London, as we strengthen Parliament, we must of course ensure that we have cleaned it up, too. Radical steps have already been taken to put in place a new expenses regime. Although the way that the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is working in its early days may be controversial to some hon. Members on both sides of the House, I am sure that everyone agrees that public confidence in how MPs are paid is absolutely crucial. Our personal arrangements should never be so grossly out of step with those of our constituents, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is already talking to IPSA about how we can move away from the generous final salary pension scheme enjoyed by Members of the House.

Expenses were only ever the tip of the iceberg. The influence of big money runs much deeper. It is time to finish what was started three years ago in the cross-party talks on party funding. Every party has had its own problems, but we all now have an opportunity to draw a line under them, so we will seize that opportunity. We will pursue a detailed agreement on limiting donations and reforming party funding to remove big money from politics for good.

Equally, we all remember the outrage felt in all parts of the House at the lobbying scandals that unfolded just a few months ago, before the general election. Much lobbying activity is perfectly legitimate. Much of it serves an important function, allowing different organisations and charities to make representations to Parliament, but it is a process—I am sure everyone agrees on this—that must be made completely transparent. We are committed to ensuring that transparency and we will introduce a statutory register of lobbyists.

Finally, if, once all those reforms are in place, there are individual parliamentarians who still break the rules, we will also guarantee that the House of Commons is not a safe house. We will introduce legislation to ensure that, where it has been proven that a Member has been engaged in serious wrongdoing, their constituents will have the right to organise a petition to force a by-election.

When people have been let down by their MP in that way, they must not be made to wait until the next election to cast their judgment, but I also want to be clear: recall will not collapse into some tit-for-tat game between party political rivals, with parties seeking to oust each other through those petitions. When MPs are accused of doing something seriously wrong, they are entitled—everyone is entitled in the House—to expect a fair and due process to determine their innocence or guilt. That is why I certainly would not be content for a body composed only of MPs, as the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges was, to be the sole route by which we decide an MP’s culpability. That is why we are looking into exactly what would be the fairest, most appropriate and most robust trigger. I shall outline those plans very soon.

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[Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

I hope the House will appreciate my being unable to respond to the contributions of all the old retreads, so to speak, as I want to concentrate on the remarkable standard of debate from those making their maiden speeches, and as there were 22 of them by my count, I shall have to go through them very quickly.

My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) spoke movingly about the tragic case of Peter Chapman and the lessons to learn from it. The hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) was generous and gracious in her comments about her predecessor, Lynda Waltho, and spoke about the importance of the glass industry to her constituency. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) spoke about his predecessor, Tony McNulty, who as a former police Minister will, I guarantee, have been watching this debate on television all afternoon. The hon. Gentleman described him as having been diligent in his work on behalf of his constituency. He also mentioned the Royal National Orthopaedic hospital. As the Minister who approved the extra funding for the rebuild of that hospital, I too hope it goes through under this Government.

Having read the books of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), it was a delight to listen to his contribution, and I am sure we will listen to many more for many years to come. He spoke about there being the first new hospital in his constituency for 120 years, and gave a eulogy to the six towns. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) spoke about the contribution his predecessor, Ian Taylor, made to science and technology, and spoke well too about his aspirational constituency, but pointed out that there are pockets of deprivation there as well. The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) spoke about the devastating effects of the closure of the steelworks there and mentioned his predecessor, Vera Baird, whom I guarantee is already campaigning vociferously against the Government’s proposals on anonymity for rape defendants.

My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) had the distinction of being the very first Member to be elected to this Parliament. She managed it on 6 May. By and large, the rest of us followed on 7 May, and some even later. She spoke of her first-hand experience of working with the victims of sexual violence, once again putting that in the context of her opposition to the proposals on anonymity for rape defendants. The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) mentioned her many illustrious predecessors and demonstrated what a suitable successor she will be. She was also the only Member to mention domestic violence, which is an important issue in any home affairs debate.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) managed to mention all three of her local newspapers, thus guaranteeing coverage, a good trick for those yet to make their maiden speeches. She also mentioned her predecessor, Anne Moffatt, who was my Parliamentary Private Secretary both at the Department of Health and the Home Office and whom we all wish a speedy recovery following her serious illness.

The hon. Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis) spoke about his constituency’s worrying predilection for reselection, and showed why we all expect him to escape that particular curse. The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) delivered an excellent maiden speech after six years as the candidate; spending a long time waiting might, perhaps, be a good recipe for making such speeches, therefore.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) is a formidable campaigner whom I know very well. She is the first woman to be elected to represent Glasgow East and is already displaying the benefits that she will bring to her constituents. I should also note that she made one further constitutional change by referring to you, Mr Speaker, as the presiding officer and to your deputies as the deputy presiding officers. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) was the only Member until my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) to mention immigration, which he quite rightly said was one of the biggest issues on the doorstep during the general election.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) rightly mentioned Adam Ingram’s contribution to the Northern Ireland peace process. The hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) spoke about the need to retain vibrant rural communities and the importance of housing to that objective. He did much for Victim Support before he came to this House, and I am sure he will do even more as a new Member of it.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), in a funny speech, spoke about her pride at representing the constituency in which she was born and raised. She also mentioned the importance of the co-operative movement, which she will see has been grasped by the Government—at least for the time being. The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) gave us an insight into the dark world of the Government Whips when he spoke about his predecessor, and he made an elegant argument on the importance of elected police commissioners—every word of which I disagreed with.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) had the unique experience of being told he had won when he had lost and lost when he had won. I think the Whips may avoid him as a teller on any future vote we have. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) spoke impressively about how constitutional issues can be of immense importance to the more prosaic, day-to-day issues that affect our constituents. The hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) spoke of the beauty of his constituency and of the work of Richard Spring, which many of us in this House admired, despite his obvious failure to secure a bypass for Brandon.

The Member for Tory—[Interruption.] I meant the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg); I do like to remind myself which party they are from. He made a particularly entertaining speech. It was a little anti-Danish, but on the form he was on tonight, he will avoid having ox bones thrown at him during his time in this House.

Finally, the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) need not have worried—he maintained that very high standard to the last. He spoke about his sympathy for his family and friends, who have been here since 2.30 pm. I very much sympathise with that—I know how they feel. Given that he gave away the ending of the latest Harry Potter film, I think the Hansard people are having their arms stretched up their backs to make sure it is not in tomorrow’s Hansard.

For the benefit of the Deputy Prime Minister, I will mention just three of the contributions from retreads. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and the hon. Members for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) made perhaps three of the most eloquent speeches against the proposed 55% rule. Government Members ought to listen to that argument. I was also pleased that the Deputy Prime Minister made his maiden speech at the Dispatch Box. We were very interested to hear that he has given Her Majesty’s Government’s support to a yes vote in the Welsh referendum on further devolution in Wales. I think we all took that as being a step forward.

[Ian Lucas]

Was my right hon. Friend concerned to read on the BBC News website this evening that officials in the Deputy Prime Minister’s Department have described his categorical assurance to me today that the Government do support a yes vote in the referendum as a “slip of the tongue”? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is a great discourtesy to the House, and has he had any indication from the Deputy Prime Minister that he wishes to correct the record or perhaps find out what Government policy is before he makes pronouncements?

[Alan Johnson]

I just do not accept what my hon. Friend has said: this is the new politics, and what is said from the Government Dispatch Box will be carried out. I have every faith in the Deputy Prime Minister and that he will ensure that he sticks by his word on this issue.

May I welcome the Home Secretary—

Debate on the Address

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 25th May 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely right, and worse than that—[Interruption.] The former Health Secretary says that he is wrong. That shows how out of touch they are: they do not even know the damage that their Government did. We can add to that the fact that there are more children here in households where nobody works than in any other country in Europe. That is the record that they have left, and that is the record that we want to put right. So before the summer, we want to pass an education Bill that allows our best schools to reopen as academies straight away. We will not stop there. There is going to be greater freedom for all schools, radical reform so that new schools can be established, more trust for teachers and, through our pupil premium, we will make sure that extra funding goes to the poorest pupils.

We will radically reform all our public services so that they serve the public, not bureaucrats in Whitehall. We are going to do things in a completely different way from what has gone before, dismantling the top-down apparatus of state control and bringing in real choice and accountability. So with policing, out go centralisation, unnecessary paperwork and central targets, and in come beat-based police meetings and elected individuals as police commissioners. With the NHS, out go centrally directed hospital closures and politically motivated targets, and in come full patient choice and elections for your primary care trust. And that is not all. Because we are getting rid of Labour’s jobs tax, we can now afford to fund the cancer drugs that people have desperately needed for so long, to extend life and give hope to thousands of people in our country.

This Queen’s Speech addresses problems not only in our economy and our society but in our politics, too. It includes a comprehensive programme for pushing power downwards and outwards from this place. That is what the decentralisation and localism Bill is all about. Already we have shown our intent: the imposition of new unitary councils—going; regional spatial strategies—going; home information packs—gone; comprehensive area assessments—going; Standards Board bureaucracy—going; the excessive ring-fencing of local council budgets, and treating local government like infants—gone. We will be the Government who give politics and power back to the people. Not only will we push power outwards; we will also sort out the other issues that brought this House into disrepute, with a clampdown on lobbying and the right for constituents to recall any MP found guilty of serious wrongdoing.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the Prime Minister confirm that he will support the devolution of further powers to the Welsh Assembly?

[The Prime Minister]

What we are going to do is allow the referendum to go ahead that was actually rather held up by the last Government. So yes, a date will be named for that referendum and I believe that it should be held next year. There should be a free and open debate in Wales for that to happen.

[Ian Lucas]

I am sure that it was just an oversight, but the right hon. Gentleman did not actually answer my question. Will he support the devolution of further powers to the Welsh Assembly?

[The Prime Minister]

I have got two homes, but I am afraid that neither of them is in Wales, so I will not actually be able to vote.

The right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham mentioned the Wright reforms. We will ensure that Select Committee Chairmen and members are voted for by Members of Parliament and not appointed by the Whips. I have mentioned fixed-term Parliaments; we will be legislating for that, and also for a referendum on the voting system. So our political reform is all about cleaning up Parliament, and passing powers from the Executive to the legislature and from the legislature to the people.