Finance Bill

Ian Mearns Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

In that spirit, I hope the Minister sees sense, having heard eloquent arguments from Opposition Members and the lack of arguments offered by Government Members.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

Would my hon. Friend care to speculate on how many of the 14,000 millionaires who will be super-beneficiaries of the measures will stop moving the mountains of cash that they currently move to avoid paying tax when the top rate is reduced from 50p to 45p? Surely if they move mountains of cash to avoid paying 50p, they will not move any less to avoid paying 45p.

[Thomas Docherty]

I suspect the best and fastest way to answer my hon. Friend’s question would be to attend the next Conservative party fundraising drinks event, where I am sure many of those millionaires will be buying the Minister a rather hearty round.

Much has been made of the quad’s all-night drinking session. I am sure they were drinking fine Scotch malts—indeed, no fine malts are made outside Scotland—but they should have spent more time looking at the detail of those two decisions. In direct contrast to the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), I would argue that pensioners on an income of £10,000 a year are not among the wealthiest pensioners in the country. If Conservative Members believe pensioner households struggling to get by on £10,000 are wealthy, it goes to show how staggeringly out of touch they are.

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[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Ian Mearns]

Would my hon. Friend care to reflect on the fact that we have just heard from the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) a celebration of stagflation?

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend is correct. This is not a time for celebration, as the cost of living continues to rise and the cost of energy and other precious commodities heads in the wrong direction. The real-terms cut faced by pensioners this year will make their lives much harder.

It is also worth reflecting on who will benefit from the proposals outlined by Ministers. We are talking about footballers, pop stars and “Big Brother” contestants. We talk about wealth generation and the value of people. With the greatest respect, I would argue that those three categories should not be given priority over our greatest generation. I know that the Minister is a courageous soul and, for his sins, an Ipswich Town supporter—such as that can be—but I wonder whether he truly believes that the value given by Ipswich Town players last year or this year was greater than the value given by the greatest generation in our nation. Surely, he must reflect on whether Middlesbrough, Ipswich Town, Sunderland, Leicester City or Crystal Palace players should really be prioritised over our pensioners.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and he has hit the nail on the head.

[Ian Mearns]

The hon. Gentlemen have got it quite wrong. The tribal nature of football is that people idolise their own team’s players and despise the activities of the players from other teams. The bottom line is that the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) would prefer that there was no tax at all.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is wrong on that last point; I recognise that there is a need for taxation, though slightly beyond the clauses we are immediately discussing. However, I will answer the important point that he has raised on the tribal nature of football and why people are willing to see these high salaries paid. It is because they recognise that those salaries get them the best quality players and they want to see the best quality players playing for the team that they so ardently and passionately support—it is an ardent passion that I do not have, but I understand that many people do have it. That requires low taxes, because otherwise these players take their talent abroad.

I come back to Professor Laffer, because his argument is one that is so obvious as to be self-evident: if the tax rate is zero, nothing will be raised and if it is 100%, no sane person will pay it either as there is no point in working or in earning. There is some point along that curve where the least legal avoidance takes place—I emphasise that avoidance is legal—the most amount of working is done and the highest amount of revenue is received. We have seen this. I know that some Conservative Members, myself included, think that there was a golden age when Baroness Thatcher was in charge—

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The 50p rate has been criticised by business. It has risked lasting damage to the UK economy and has raised considerably less than expected for the Exchequer, potentially even costing rather than raising revenue. Change is needed, but it must build on the evidence. We now have a more informed view of the behavioural impact of the additional rate—one fully endorsed and accepted by the Office for Budget Responsibility as central and reasonable.

[Ian Mearns]

I am grateful to the Minister and Ipswich Town supporter for giving way. Does he agree with the general thrust of the argument put forward by his colleague, the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)? It was that tax avoidance is not at all morally repugnant and it should be encouraged as long as it is legal.

[Mr Gauke]

To be fair, that is not what my hon. Friend said, although I did not agree with everything that he did say on that issue. I shall take this opportunity to say a word or so about avoidance, because the Government are keen to address that.