Agricultural Wages Board

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

It is quite clear that the proposal to abolish the AWB is not driven by a worry that it holds pay back or conditions down.

[Sir James Paice]

Yes, it is.

[Andrew George]

If the Government are arguing that it is being abolished to enhance pay and conditions, we will hear that from the Front Bench in a moment. Does the hon. Lady agree that we do not want simply to go the lowest common denominator?

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir James Paice (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

I will make a brief contribution because, like the Minister, I am happy to support the Lords amendment. I just wanted to make the point that, in considering the fines structure and the levels at which they will need to be set, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister and the Secretary of State will consider the magnitude of the businesses involved. A fine that to most people would seem substantial of perhaps a few thousand pounds, would be totally insignificant—a few minutes’ trading—to a major supermarket.

I do not pretend to have the answers. This is a subject on which I have wrestled in my own mind and discussed with the adjudicator, because it will be extremely difficult. That is one reason I was always a bit dubious about the need for fines—the reputational issue will be far more valuable. It is clear to me that if a fine is to be levied, it will have to be at a level that is likely to lead to the behavioural change of the relevant supermarket that all of us who support the Bill desire to see. That means it will be very significant. I am sure that if my hon. Friend the Minister comes forward with figures, there will be accusations that they are completely disproportionate to the issues. The proportion, however, is to do not just with the issue, but with the scale of the business and the behavioural change we want to see—clearly, that is not going to happen unless the business has been in serious breach of the code.

I am grateful for the opportunity to make the point to my hon. Friend, and to hon. Members in all parts of the House, that when the statutory instrument comes back to the House we will have to consider this wider issue. It is not simply a penalty for a small offence, but something we need to ensure is a genuine penalty for breach of the code and a deterrent. It will therefore have to be of a very large magnitude indeed.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice). I welcome the Lords amendment and do not oppose it. I am sure that that will be a great relief to my hon. Friend the Minister, whom I congratulate on all the work she has done on the Bill.

The key point addressed by the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire is that the order, when it is brought forward, is couched in a manner that has the impact we all want. Whether fines will be a set figure or a proportion of turnover was debated at some length in Committee. A proportion of turnover for Tesco as opposed to, say, Waitrose, is significant. Certainly, in other areas of competition law this appears to be the case. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look at a proportion of turnover as an alternative to setting an absolute amount in the order. I congratulate the Government on accepting the need to provide for fines in the Bill. The fact that significant changes have been made shows the benefit of debate and scrutiny in this place. Without question, the Bill improved over time.

I echo the words of the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray). I sat through the previous debate on the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill and made a point of order about how we had not had an opportunity to debate the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. The groceries code adjudicator is being put in place to address some of the pressures on primary producers. It is a great pity, however, that we were not given the acres of time we have now—to debate this relatively minor issue—in order to debate an issue that will have a significant impact on the future of agriculture and agricultural workers in this country. The risk that this might become a race to the bottom or that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority might be the only body able effectively to regulate and protect workers in the agricultural sector is one that the House ought not to take. I hope that the House will reflect on the fact that the undemocratic House has introduced a measure without the democratic Chamber having an opportunity to debate it. We must ensure that such a thing never happens again. There has been no debate or vote in this House on an issue of great significance.

I shall return to the primary purpose of the amendment. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister. This is a welcome change and we look forward to the order being brought forward as quickly as possible, so that when the adjudicator begins her job, in the coming few weeks I hope, we will see this measure introduced effectively and a proactive adjudicator seeking vigorously to enforce the groceries code.

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir James Paice]

The honest answer is that, no, I did not come across such evidence, but it may well have been happening and I just did not know about it, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley rightly said, those very big suppliers can look after themselves. I am not arguing against what has been said. Indeed, I would have had some sympathy for new clause 2 and the £1 billion threshold if I thought my hon. Friend’s motives were justified, but as a result of the rest of his argument I completely lost any support for it that I might otherwise have had. I also think the Bill as currently drafted will militate against big organisations acting in such ways. The Bill is designed to deal with problems that we all agree arise, and which tend to fall on small and medium-sized enterprises.

[Andrew George]

I entirely endorse my right hon. Friend’s comments. Following the logic of the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Shipley, the conclusion we would draw is that the Bill should look both ways, as it were. I have drawn that conclusion and would like the Bill to reflect that, by seeking to ensure there is fair dealing across the supermarket supply chain, so that if a supplier became too powerful, complaints could be made the other way.

[Sir James Paice]

My hon. Friend is entirely right.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I cannot be precise on the timing of the legislation, partly for the reasons that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary gave in answer to the previous question. It will take time, which is why we believe we must proceed with the licensing process. We are advised strongly that the hon. Lady’s proposal on new animals would almost certainly fail a judicial challenge, but importing animals is anyway covered by the convention on international trade in endangered species regulations.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Further to the question of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), I congratulate the Government on their announcement today, but will this welcome measure be implemented by the time of the next general election? When will it be implemented? It is important that we have a date.

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend knows full well that it is impossible to put an exact date on it, but I would be extremely surprised and disappointed if it was not implemented before the next election.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew George]

I very much respect the Minister’s judgment. He argues that the Agricultural Wages Board represents a bygone age, but does he accept that the Conservatives supported the establishment of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, which provides necessary additional regulation to protect agricultural workers. If he is predicting, as a result of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, that wages and terms and conditions will not go down, can he tell the House this evening that he will confidently predict that they will either at least remain the same or, indeed, be more enhanced than they might otherwise be? [Interruption.]

[Mr Paice]

For once, I agree with whoever is shouting from a sedentary position. Of course no Minister can guarantee such things and it would be crazy for anybody to do that, but it is our firm belief that the overall employment situation in agriculture and in the fresh food sector will be enhanced by the abolition of the wages board.

The amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives to transfer the powers and duties of the Agricultural Wages Board to the Low Pay Commission would mean the continuation of a dual regime, with consequent duplication of effort for employers. A transfer of the wages board functions to the Low Pay Commission would mean that there was still a separate employment regime for agricultural workers. There would be no removal of the regulatory burden on businesses and we would not achieve the simplification of legislation that we believe is necessary.

Moreover, if the Low Pay Commission were to be given powers to set an agricultural minimum wage rate, it would be difficult to argue why the commission should not extend those powers to set rates in other sectors—in other words, to return to the position before 1993. As it is, the Low Pay Commission does not have any statutory powers to set a minimum wage in any sector. It is an advisory body which makes recommendations to Government. The establishment of another advisory body to advise the Low Pay Commission, which the new clause would create, would introduce more bureaucracy, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

If the Agricultural Wages Board and agricultural minimum wage regime were abolished, the Low Pay Commission would be asked to consider evidence in the agricultural sector, as it does in other sectors. That evidence would be taken into account when the commission made its recommendations to Government on the rates for the national minimum wage. The national minimum wage rate would thus reflect the situation for agricultural workers. I have emphasised the point about retention of existing contractual rights.

The current evidence shows that for permanent workers aged over 21, well over half were paid well above the hourly minimum wage for the relevant grades in both 2009 and 2010. As in all other industries, agricultural workers with the right qualifications and aptitudes would continue to be able to command a premium. Lower skilled workers who were paid at or around the grade 1 agricultural minimum wage rate would be protected by the national minimum wage requirements. As has been mentioned, the lowest agricultural wage rate is just 2p per hour above the national minimum wage.

The Government would encourage industry representatives to work together to provide benchmarks for agricultural wage rates. As Members know, a non-statutory approach to wage setting works in many other industries, such as the construction sector, and although there are differences between the sectors, there is no reason why a similar approach should not work in agriculture.

I have discussed the matter with the National Farmers Union and urged it to introduce advisory levels of pay annually, in conjunction with the revisions to the minimum wage and annual levels of premium. The current premiums paid for grades above grade 1 are certain percentages above the basic grade. There is no reason why any employer who wants to employ somebody who they classify as a craftsman, a foreman or whatever grade they wish, cannot continue to use the minimum wage as the base for adding whatever premium they consider appropriate. The annual uprating of the minimum wage would be the opportunity for annual changes to agricultural wages.

In Committee and again tonight, there was considerable debate about the position of the Agricultural Wages Board in Wales. I accept that the Welsh Government take a different view. We are continuing to engage with them on the arrangements that should apply to agricultural workers in Wales.

Finally, the future of the board will be subject to public consultation, as required by the provisions of the Bill. We hope to consult before the end of the year. That will ensure that the consultation is widely advertised to meet the requirements of the Bill. Equally important and relevant to points that have been made tonight, an impact assessment and equality impact assessment will be published as part of the consultation.

That brings me to the issue of £9 million being taken out of the economy, which the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) said—well, it was broadcast this morning, but I suspect that, like me, she did not actually say it this morning—was per year. The figure of £9 million was one of a number of possible scenarios, but I will not take it back. It did originate from DEFRA, but it was not an official impact assessment. I do not dispute its origin, but the figure was £9 million over 10 years—less than £1 million a year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paice]

The House will have heard the hon. Lady’s apology.

If new clauses 8 and 9 were agreed to, we would create two new statutory bodies, an office of rural affairs and a rural advocate, both of which would be responsible for exercising the advocacy, advice and watchdog functions currently undertaken by the CRC. Instead of moving towards a single source of rural expertise, we would be funding two new organisations to gather evidence of rural impacts and to seek to bring about changes in policy, which would be a muddled arrangement, and, if anything, replicate and extend the duplication of functions that we seek to address.

We have had a long debate. I am conscious that other Members want to move on to other issues. There are other things that I could say about rural communities, but suffice it to say that we have a Government and a Department that passionately care about rural communities, and in that light I ask my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives to withdraw the new clause.

[Andrew George]

I am conscious that we have still to debate the Youth Justice Board and S4C, so I will not detain the House unnecessarily. However, I should like to respond to the Minister’s comments on the new clauses and his comments on the Commission for Rural Communities. New clauses 8 and 9 were mutually exclusive, so they would not both have to be agreed to. I appreciate that they may not be sufficiently technically adequate to achieve my objective, but the Minister must accept the need for some independent, out-of-Government advocate, and I hope that some overarching brief to maintain the rural perspective is a debate that we can still have, as the Minister acknowledges that the issue requires affirmative resolution following this enabling legislation.

I will not respond to all the Minister’s remarks on new clause 7, which dominated the debate, but he predicted that it would not drive down wages and conditions, and I respect his judgment. That is obviously a brave prediction, but when I asked whether he could predict that it would at least protect and result in the exceptional enhancement of agricultural workers’ wages and conditions, he could not provide that reassurance. I am pleased that in the past Conservatives supported the very necessary legislation to establish the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. The Minister said that this reflected a bygone age, but the bygone age is one before gangs and gangworkers were brought in and exploited in the manner in which they have been. That issue has been addressed, but agricultural workers are still very much present. After the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, should that proceed, it is predicted that we still need to attract another 60,000 agricultural workers over the next 10 years, which will be a challenge indeed.

I accept that new clause 7 is technically deficient, but I still believe that the Government should reflect on the proposal to bring responsibility for the enforcement of the regulations under another body such as the Low Pay Commission. Given that we are not making the decision today to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board, we have had a good debate and there are other matters for consideration, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.



New Clause 11

Youth Justice Board powers and responsibilities in relation to Wales

‘A joint committee shall be established to oversee the exercise of powers and responsibilities relating to youth justice jointly between the Youth Justice Board and Ministers of the National Assembly for Wales.’.—(Alun Michael.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 19th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

The hon. Lady needs to reflect on the proceedings she has just mentioned, because they are very different from that which is under discussion now. Those situations involved European member states taking action at European level, whereas this situation involves a single member state, and we believe that if we take this action we may well be infringing European law, to which we are committed.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

A reference in Friday’s statement to the legal context of a ban is relevant only if the Department had been seriously considering a ban. Will the Minister therefore enlighten the House about that and tell us whether the Government would review the situation and consider an outright ban if the legal impediment could be overcome?

[Mr Paice]

I assure my hon. Friend that we considered all options, because we had the benefit of the consultation that the previous Government had initiated and the responses to it. Clearly, however, on the basis of the information and advice we received, we believed a ban was not the right way to proceed. We wanted to be able to act swiftly, and we can do that through a very strict licensing regime. I must repeat to the House that very tough standards will be imposed on how these animals can be kept, and it is possible that circus owners will not be able to meet those standards, in which case we will have achieved a ban without having to pass primary legislation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

Yes, I entirely share the view that these penalties are out of all proportion. I have raised this with the Commission and, more importantly, I and many other Ministers of Agriculture have raised it in the context of the review of the common agricultural policy, which has just commenced. We have firmly expressed to the Commission our view that the next system of CAP support must be simpler, both for individual farmers and for member states to implement.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Having met Richard Macdonald, I am confident that he will undertake a thorough and comprehensive review of the regulatory burden on farmers. When he reports, will my hon. Friend ensure that he receives support from other Government Departments and that that these matters are discussed, if necessary, with the European Union as well?

[Mr Paice]

I can assure my hon. Friend that I am in close contact with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), and, as I said in answer to an earlier question, with the relevant Commissioners across Europe. We are determined that if this industry is to flourish and succeed in the face of increasing world demand for food over the next decades, it must be freed up from unnecessary burdens of regulation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 4th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Discussions are taking place in Europe about the threshold for the import of GM soya, predominantly, which is what he is talking about, and I can assure him that we will be taking a constructive view to those negotiations. Quite clearly it would be pointless to deprive our livestock sector of something in a way that simply means we import more livestock products that have been fed on GM food.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Farmers clearly cannot be competitive if supermarkets have got them in an arm lock. In response to the question from the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), the Minister rightly supported the Government policy of enforcing the grocery code supply practice. However, will he acknowledge that there is anxiety in the farming community about the fact that the Government may not be introducing this legislation soon enough. Can he reassure us that they will take the earliest opportunity to bring it forward?

[Mr Paice]

May I recognise and pay tribute to the sterling work that my hon. Friend has done on this matter over a number of years in bringing forward this proposition, which is now Government policy? I can reassure him that I am constantly talking to my colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and urging them to bring this forward, because I fully recognise its importance to the whole of the agriculture industry.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 9th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

It is precisely because that was the advice of the Farm Animal Welfare Council, which his Government disregarded.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), does my hon. Friend agree that, for those people concerned about the issue of beak trimming, the worst possible outcome from an animal welfare point of view would be that we end up with legislation that resulted in exporting animal welfare concerns—and jobs—to other countries? That would surely be a far worse outcome.

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. The sad reality is that chickens will feather-peck and adopt cannibalism in any circumstances, including in large free-range facilities. The challenge with which we have to wrestle is whether or not debeaking is a bigger or lesser welfare issue than the consequences of not debeaking. The Government want to see an end to debeaking and we will achieve that, but we have to ensure that we do not make the situation worse in the process.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Andrew George

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I welcome her to this question session. She is absolutely right and, as part of our overall review of all arm’s length bodies, we are looking for the sorts of efficiencies to which she has referred. However, I can tell her that the AHA has already instituted a road map for change that should deliver a significant tranche of savings, and a much more efficient business as well.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

16. What plans she has for the future of the Rural Payments Agency.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

An independent review of the Rural Payments Agency, commissioned by DEFRA last autumn, has recently concluded. We will publish the recommendations of the review and our response to it shortly.

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, and I wish him well in his work. As he knows well, each claim to the RPA costs £1,700, and the RPA has been characterised by mistakes and inefficiency throughout its years of operation. What reassurance can he give farmers in my constituency and throughout the country that those problems will improve?

[Mr Paice]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I think he knows that the impossible we can do at once, but miracles take a little longer, and putting the RPA right probably comes within the last part of that saying. I assure him that I am extremely determined to get a grip on the problems at the RPA; I am conscious, as I have made clear over recent years, of the problems and the service to many farmers, and we have to get it right. When I publish the review I will also put forward the measures that we propose to take to address them.