Railways Bill (Second sitting)

Jayne Kirkham Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Joe Robertson]

Q In the best case, as mayors, would you like to see more powers in the Bill? I get that you support the Bill, but in the best world, would you like to see more powers for mayors to integrate in it?

Andy Burnham: I think there should be a presumption in favour of integration; you are absolutely right. Other countries, such as the Netherlands, have had that as their guiding star, but we went down a fragmentation route in public transport, and have suffered as a country as a result. Integration is the way to think. People are not just loyal to one mode; they want to use transport in as convenient a way as possible. The railways have not had an imperative to think that way for a long time, but you are absolutely right to think of integration as the watchword.

[Jayne Kirkham (Truro and Falmouth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q You have sort of answered one of my questions: I was going to ask about combined and integrated local transport offers and ticketing, and how that would work. I think you answered that you could consult. Will you say something about safeguards in terms of how that ticketing would work and how you would share the tickets with GBR? Can you foresee any issues with that?

Tracy Brabin: As Andy says, we are already doing it. We are sharing with the bus operators in our integrated Weaver network, where we have, for example, brought in the “mayor’s fare”. I think it is the only one in the country, and it is a day saver. It is capped and can be used on any bus, anywhere, for any number of journeys and on any operator. We work with the operators to divvy up the checks and balances of the passengers. I think you can see that it is possible.

To the previous point, devolution means that every region is different, so you do not always have to have one size fits all; you can have whatever works for you and your community. There are definitely ways to do it. Certainly, if it is done in London, that should give you comfort that it can be done elsewhere.

[Jayne Kirkham]

Q I was going to move on to devolution. It is fantastic that you are investing in your local infrastructure and you are able to do that. I am from Cornwall, where we have basically one line in and one line out to serve 640,000 people; we do not really have that infrastructure. Can you see any benefit, apart from the railway service hopefully getting better overall, for those areas that do not have the advantage of having a very active mayor with a regional funding pot for these things?

Tracy Brabin: I will say timetabling, because I have witnessed a bus arriving as the train is pulling away. Having that localised regional mind that considers what the public and businesses need, and where the buses need to go to deliver the passengers to the trains, is challenging, but are you not going to get a mayor soon?

[Jayne Kirkham]

Oh, there is a fraught question. I think anyone in the rest of the country who you ask will be having issues about devolution.

Tracy Brabin: Fair enough. But it is about that oversight of the buses feeding the train timetable.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

Q I was going to ask more about devolution. I will just make the point that I was going to make, and then I will ask you a very quick question.

The application of the term “devolution and local leadership” to this Bill is quite distracting, because ultimately, unless you are a mayoral combined authority, you do not get any of these powers. I think that was what Jayne was alluding to. To my mind, GBR is an increasingly two-tier system: you have the devolved local authorities and everywhere else. I am concerned about what that is going to mean for accountability to local areas. That was more of a statement than a question—apologies.

You keep saying that you want a meaningful relationship with GBR. The question that has kept coming to my mind is: what does “meaningful” actually look like? Can you unpack what you mean by “meaningful”?

Andy Burnham: On your statement, I think we have to get our heads in the space of an all-devolved England. I know it can be difficult, but sometimes people have to see the bigger picture of the area where people live and travel. People go across those borders every day; they do not think about borders as much as politicians.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I am afraid this will probably have to be the last question for this witness.

[Jayne Kirkham]

Q I will be quick. You may know, Mr Bowker, that I am the MP for Falmouth. I am trying to restore a small disused freight line at the end of the passenger line, so I am pleased to hear about the new duty to encourage freight. How do you think GBR could and should encourage freight? How will it actually do that?

Richard Bowker: Well, there is a target of 75% growth by 2050, and there is a duty to take it into account and to support the carriage of goods and services by rail. That is all great stuff. The rail freight businesses are in the private sector, and they are commercial and very agile. They will follow business. If business is there to be brought on to rail, I genuinely believe they are out looking for it all the time, and if they can make it happen, they will. I do not think GBR will necessarily have to try to find freight flows; the freight operators are extremely able at doing that. GBR has to make sure there are no blockages to being able to get those flows on.

The discounting process for track access is a very good thing in the Bill, and I think that will really help. The most important thing is that the freight team inside GBR is able to have its appropriate share of voice inside GBR when it comes to the passenger business as well. If GBR genuinely takes account of all its duties, I think it will work, because the freight companies will go and find the business. GBR just has to enable it to happen.

[The Chair]

That brings us to the end of the time allocated for this witness. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you, Mr Bowker, for giving evidence.

Examination of Witnesses

Keir Mather and Lilian Greenwood gave evidence.