EU Referendum: Timing
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Mrs Main
The hon. Gentleman has made a lot of interventions, and some of us have waited to make our remarks within our own speeches, so I will make some progress before taking interventions from those who have already intervened.
As I have said, I am not too discouraged by the designation process, but I can understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point. If several people knock on someone’s door and say why they wish to make the case for leaving the EU, it will only reinforce the views of that person and help them with their decision-making process when they cast their vote. None the less, I do understand that there is a concern for those of us who are waiting eagerly to see what date has been chosen.
I note that the word “contaminating” has been used in the motion. Although I would not use that word in relation to the date, I understand that it does give those who wish to remain in the EU a bit of an advantage. A lot of information will come out later in the year. I am not talking so much about the European Council meeting to which my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) referred. In a letter on subsidiarity, Mr Tusk said:
“The Commission will propose a programme of work”—
by which I believe he means the competences—
“by the end of 2016 and subsequently report on an annual basis to the European Parliament and the Council.”
Therefore, if we do have a vote in June, we will not know what the Commission is proposing on subsidiarity and on the competences that are being brought back. We will only know what our Parliament has control over after that vote. However, some of us in the Leave and Go campaigns believe that we can make the case already, but there will be very thin gruel, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) has said, for us to consider.
Another matter that we need to know, but that we will not know by June—we will probably not know it by the end of the year or at any other date—is to do with the proposal that the Prime Minister is currently exploring with other EU countries on limiting benefits across the 28 countries. After looking into the matter, I have found that some countries have very different rules on child benefit. Some have no child benefit; some have benefits for one child; and some have benefits for multiple children. That will be a minefield to explore. We have no details on it at the moment. More to the point, the deal will be struck behind closed doors, so before the date in June we will not know whether any of the deals that may have been agreed will hold up. That is a concern, but I am not sure that we will be any the wiser the longer we leave it. Whichever treaty we have in place either guarantees EU nationals the rights to claim welfare in each other’s countries or it does not. If those treaties do guarantee those rights, I am not sure how legally binding they will be in the future; they could all fall apart two days after the referendum. However, pushing the date further down the road to later in the year will not make us any the wiser.
The motion talks about a rush to the referendum, but I think that there is a compression. For those on the Front Bench with Eurosceptic leanings who currently feel constrained to speak, the compression gives them less opportunity to cite their views in favour of removing this country from the European Union. On that basis, I can see why having a date early might constrain some of our colleagues on the Conservative Benches who are waiting to hear what the Prime Minister delivers on 18 February. That is probably the only conspiracy theory that I can see going around. I personally think that the public would rather get on with this matter. Our Conservative manifesto promise is delivering this referendum. I pay tribute to the Ulster Unionists for their long-standing campaign.
Mrs Main
I mean the DUP. I am so sorry. I pay tribute to its long-standing campaign. If we push this matter even further into the long grass, none of the questions that I have about treaty change or about what Mr Tusk and his colleagues will allow us to bring back in terms of subsidiarity will be answered until 2017. One of my biggest concerns as a Eurosceptic is that we constantly have to ask 28 countries what they think. Trying to get three or four countries to agree to anything is pretty difficult, but getting 28 countries to agree is almost impossible, which is why I want to leave. We will not have the clarity that the Democratic Unionist party seeks today.
Although I have a slight concern about the designation process, I do think that the groups will sort themselves out. On the May elections, let me offer a scrap of comfort to those who say that the Remain campaign would benefit from an early referendum. I suggest that that campaign may be experiencing voter fatigue. Those of us who feel passionately and strongly about this matter—I add that many of our Conservative Associations feel the same way, even if some of the Members do not—have been out talking to our constituents. I did so on a market stall over the weekend and at various meetings, including one with my Conservative ladies yesterday. I will be out there to vote—it will not matter that we have had a vote six weeks before—because I feel very strongly that, for the first time, I will be able to ask myself, “Do I wish to be in this European Union as it is with all its failings and all its flaws?” My answer will be, “No, I want to leave.”
Those campaigning to go or to leave, however that is framed, will be more agitated and more wishing to get out the front door on whatever date is chosen than those who may feel voter fatigue as a result of being involved in all those other elections. In short, I am reasonably encouraged that people may feel that they have had enough of voting in local elections, mayoral elections and all the other elections and will just sit at home and watch the Romanian rugby match or whatever is on the television on the day. I do not think that we will ever get the clarity that we want. I will be sticking with whatever date is picked, because I would like to get on and resolve this matter. It is a shame—I mean not that it is shameful but that it is an issue for me—that colleagues on the Front Bench who see the matter our way will have such a short amount of air time and a short amount of time to campaign and put their case.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. It is good for the Democratic Unionist party to propose a debate on an issue that concerns our constituents, whether in the Northern Ireland Assembly, where we are the party of leadership, or in the House, where we are the party of leadership when it comes to these issues.
It is concerning and, indeed, saddening, that the Prime Minister is happy for people in the devolved regions of the greater United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to be second-class citizens in this once-in-a-lifetime decision on the future of our country. Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish citizens of this great unitary state are set to be punished for having devolved Assemblies and making local decisions at a local level. That is how we feel, and that is how many of my constituents feel as well.
We will have just over half the time to campaign, consider and make this huge decision in the devolved regions. The proposed referendum date is a huge insult to voters in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, and if we cannot secure a reasonable accommodation—nothing stands in the way of doing so—that will rub salt into the wounds. My colleagues in the House and our Scottish countrymen will have just over half the time to campaign and make that major decision on the future of the United Kingdom than they had when they voted to maintain the Union. In the Scottish referendum they were given some 540 days. I am not saying that we should have 540 days for this referendum, but hon. Members can see the difference between those two referendums.
With the general election last year, local government elections the year before last, and now an Assembly election and the biggest referendum in a generation, the proposed referendum date risks not only a democratic deficit in campaigning but voter fatigue. Many Members have mentioned that, and we cannot ignore it. We are constantly pressing for better voter engagement and participation, and we are constantly working to improve voter turnout and engagement in the Province. If the Government continue to take the same approach to the EU referendum date, that will only hinder the positive work that has been done.
I think that we have had 14 elections in 14 years in Northern Ireland, so we are electioneered almost to the max. The British people, including the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish, gave the Prime Minister time to renegotiate, and now he will give millions of British citizens just six weeks to consider something he took months to obtain and which, in reality, amounts to nothing at all. One of his MPs, who is not in the Chamber—the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg)—described it as “thin gruel”. It certainly is: there is nothing that has been negotiated so far that gives us any hope, but it stops us having the referendum at a time when all the citizens of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have democratic equality.
I have been contacted by many of my constituents, who are in a state of dismay, and I want to speak in the remaining couple of minutes about the fishermen and farmers across my constituency and Northern Ireland who will be disadvantaged. Fishermen and fisherwomen in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of England, to a man and woman, will vote to leave the Union, because they are burdened with red tape, bureaucracy and restrictions on fishing. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) referred to the common fisheries policy, which should change, as we need regionalisation. We need responsibility back in our own hands. That is a huge issue for fishermen and fisherwomen, and it requires consideration, as it directly affects their livelihood. Normal, hard-working, everyday folk are the backbone of our nation, and they should be given the same democratic rights as farmers and fishermen in England. With Assembly elections around the corner, my hard-working constituents in that sector have enough on their plate.
Farmers are up to their eyes in paperwork, regulation, rules and laws. Quite simply, the fishermen and farmers want to know what is going on. We put £19 billion into the European Union, and I understand that the common agricultural policy costs £15 billion. That is the debate that we need to take to the farmers, so we can let them know what we are going to do for them and make sure that they understand.
The Prime Minister has signalled that he intends to visit Northern Ireland as part of his attempt to convince Eurosceptics that his “thin gruel” is palatable. It will never be palatable as it does not suit the energy or taste of anyone in Northern Ireland. The proposal completely disregards the democratic rights of citizens in our corner of the United Kingdom. There is no good reason or excuse for not having a referendum on a different date—even four weeks later, or whenever. We have not heard anything to convince us as citizens in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland that we will not be at a disadvantage in the referendum.
In conclusion, the Prime Minister and the Minister need to take these comments on board and listen to their fellow countrymen and women in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, give them the respect that they deserve, and make sure that the people there have the same ability to participate in the referendum as their counterparts in England.
Real-time Credit Scoring
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Chris Evans
My hon. Friend speaks with some expertise. I pay tribute to the amount of work she has done on payday lending and raising the issues associated with it. She is right. The real problem is that the banks have a stranglehold on lending. They jealously guard their data and they are suspicious of the Data Protection Act. They therefore keep out of the market major competitors who could bring down interest rates, which is what we all want to see.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman is very gracious and I thank him for giving way. Credit risk is one of the top issues in financial services and there is a need for services to be automated. Is there a possibility through real-time credit scoring to provide new, exciting jobs in a well-paid high-end market? That would be a plus, if it was done in the right way.
Chris Evans
The hon. Gentleman is right. The more competitors there are in the market, the more jobs and the more specialised jobs there will be. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who speaks on every single topic. We have often joked privately that Westminster Hall is his lounge in the morning, as he speaks there so often. Coming from Northern Ireland and Wales, which have great similarities—both are heavily reliant on public sector jobs—the hon. Gentleman and I know that real-time data sharing and more competitors in the market would bring the private sector jobs that areas such as mine, his and the north-east are crying out for.
Currently, consumers pay the high costs in two ways. Consumers who can afford credit pay more than they should, and consumers to whom lenders ought not to lend are able to access credit even when it is not affordable. Better data would reduce both these problems, to the benefit of all concerned. So who would be the big losers if the Financial Conduct Authority acts? The banks and the incumbent lenders, but I do not think they would be losers. They would have to up their game and offer innovative products such as those that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. The FCA should also be ready to act in the teeth of resistance and entrenched interests, to further the interests of the consumer and our constituents.
I want to provide some background information to data sharing in consumer credit markets. An important interaction in the consumer credit market is the way in which lenders, particularly unsecured lenders—or, as we know them, high-cost, short-term credit lenders—assess a prospective borrower’s creditworthiness before agreeing whether to lend to them and setting the terms on which the loan is made. Lenders rely on information about a borrower’s creditworthiness from a range of services, including information supplied directly by the potential borrower as part of their loan application and information obtained from credit reference agencies.
Credit reference agencies aggregate information about the individual borrower’s personal information, past credit history and current credit commitments, and they supply that information to lenders on commercial terms. The three main credit reference agencies in the UK are Experian, Equifax and Callcredit. The way in which credit reference agencies aggregate and supply information is not regulated by the FCA, but operates on an industry-wide reciprocal basis. There is no requirement on individual lenders to share information, and although banks, which hold the most critical current account information, have the most detailed overview of a customer’s financial position, they do not in general supply data to credit reference agencies—of course not, because the data give them a leg up into the market and an advantage over other providers.
Veritec states that payday lenders have, as we all know, consistently failed to act in the best interests of consumers. Previous efforts to allow the UK payday lending industry to self-regulate have not succeeded, and tragic cases have come to light whereby individuals have become trapped in a downward spiral of debt through multiple, simultaneous loans. The actions of payday loan companies should be monitored by the FCA, and a database with real-time information on existing loans is required.
I do not want anyone to think that I want short-term lending to be banned. It is a massive industry that creates jobs for people. There is obviously a need for it, otherwise there would not be so much money in the market, but I believe that tools have to be made available so that decisions can be made about creditworthiness.
Crucially, not all lenders report data to more than one credit reference agency, and a reliance on credit reference agencies has played a key role in the downfall of the implementation of FCA rules and consumer protection. It is disappointing that the FCA will not consult on real-time data sharing requirements at this time.
Only a database with real-time information on existing loans will protect consumers from potential harm. A system should be considered real time only if every inquiry and every lending decision is updated instantaneously across 100% of the market. That would allow for lenders to know immediately if a consumer is eligible for a loan under the FCA’s responsible lending rules. However, the reciprocal principles that underpin data sharing require that lenders provide data to credit reference agencies “on a regular basis”, usually a minimum of once a month. Even where data are provided monthly, they can be as much as 60 days old by the time they are made available to other lenders.
The fact that lenders may routinely not have access to the most recent 60 days of a consumer’s credit history creates serious consequences for competition and, above all, consumer welfare, with the potential for unaffordable levels of debt. The question as to which lenders share information is an entirely commercial decision, and it is left to lenders to assess whether it is in their interests. They do not have to take into account any other information, such as the wider benefits to consumers.
Rather than just talking about affordability, it is very important to take a customer’s lifestyle into consideration, as happens when people take out mortgages. If we had real-time data sharing, that practice could be spread right across the board in personal lending.
Incumbent lenders, such as bankers, have no incentive to share data. Banks hold the most critical current account information, and the marginal benefit of sharing information and receiving reciprocal information is very small compared with the much larger marginal benefit to smaller lenders, such as unsecured lenders, or high-cost, short-term credit lenders. That creates a very important market failure. Having unrivalled access to credit data puts the banks in a unique position in considering whether to lend to consumers, and it allows them to lend at the most competitive rate. As a result, smaller lenders and new entrants are placed at a significant competitive disadvantage. That not only restricts competition, but distorts it in favour of one sub-market over another.
In addition, that risks cutting off some consumers from access to credit altogether. If they are unable to obtain a bank loan, such consumers must either rely on other forms of credit, such as unsecured lending or high-cost, short-term credit, or make do without a loan. Lenders want to lend to such under-served customers, but for lenders to be able to offer loans at reasonable interest rates, it is essential that they can minimise the risk of default. That means conducting rigorous affordability assessments, for which they require access to complete and up-to-date credit data.
The Competition and Markets Authority considered real-time data sharing in its payday lending market investigation. In its final report, it stated that it saw significant benefits to implementing real-time data sharing, but:
“We consider that further development of RTDS, specifically the frequency of updates, would benefit borrowers and lenders and that our recommendation is not redundant”.
In response to the report, the FCA was asked to consult on a range of issues, including real-time data sharing, in the high-cost, short-term credit market. In its consultation paper, the FCA stated:
“Although we see clear benefits to real-time data sharing, we do not propose to consult on introducing real-time data sharing requirements at this time.”
The FCA’s proposed approach is, in effect, to do nothing and assume that the issues associated with real-time data sharing will work themselves out through a combination of time and commercial pressures. It is true that entrepreneurial new companies are developing systems and services that use existing arrangements that are already available to consumers, such as online banking, to offer something approaching real-time credit data. Although there is scope for technology to make sharing faster and easier, unless real-time data sharing is supported by regulatory requirements from the FCA, it is likely to be opposed as a result of commercial pressures by large incumbent lenders to prevent more effective competition.
New technological solutions show that there are few material costs to implementing real-time data sharing. IT systems are already geared to real-time data sharing, and it is clear that financial institutions can mobilise their account information to support real-time data sharing for their own purposes without any difficulty. I have also been informed of the benefits of a regulatory database. A database would allow instant monitoring of loans and of the whole high-cost, short-term credit market, which can be simplified into a traffic light system for lenders and alerts when loans are made outside regulatory rules. If all applications were processed using the database, regulators would have certainty that the rules were being followed at point of sale in store or online. In addition, because the data are not shared among creditors and are used only by the regulator, commercially sensitive information and customer data are not bought and sold.
The Financial Conduct Authority should ensure that any real-time data are used to ensure compliance at every step of the lending process. That can be achieved only if all lenders of short-term, high-cost credit report data into a real-time FCA database. The payday loan market operates best, and consumers are best protected, when a database is in place. Alongside that, high-level scrutiny and enforcement activity are required to limit and prohibit illegal lending.
The absence of real-time data sharing is important for two principal reasons. First, it is a partial cause of unaffordable personal debt. Consumers may be granted loans which they cannot truly afford, because providers do not have up-to-date information about their most recent liabilities and missed payments. Secondly, it is a critical factor that limits the degree and effectiveness of competition within many overlapping consumer credit markets, because it discourages providers from entering the market and limits their ability to compete fairly if they do enter. The FCA must revise its proposed strategy and develop long-term, future-proof regulatory solutions that promote real-time data sharing and enable the innovative use of new technology.
In our society, many people, whatever their political persuasion, believe that the Government are no longer on their side. Real-time data sharing, to me, is absolute common sense, and it can be adopted with a few simple steps. It is time, through this simple measure, for the Government to show that they can stand up to large corporations and organisations that are quite clearly trying to rig the market in their favour.
Connaught Income Fund
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
Before we get into the detail of the questions I want to ask the Minister, I think it is important for me to provide some context and background on the issue.
The Connaught Income Fund Series 1 was established in April 2008. The aim of the fund was to invest in bridging loans, primarily through a company called Tiuta International Ltd. Regulatory demands resulted in the fund being operated by a Financial Services Authority-regulated firm. In the case of Connaught the initial operator was Capita Financial Managers Ltd.
Capita issued the first investment memorandum as the fund’s promoter under section 21 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 in April 2008. In September 2009 Capita Financial Managers resigned and the role of the operator was transferred to Blue Gate Capital management. At the time this decision was taken, a meeting between representatives of Capita Financial Managers and Capita plc was held. Minutes of this meeting, which are in the public domain, confirm that Capita was, at the very least, concerned about Tiuta’s financial viability and was aware of the false representations promoted to investors within the information memorandum. However, despite this level of knowledge and concern about the viability of Tiuta and the improper use of moneys invested in the fund, Capita, upon transferring the operator status to Blue Gate Capital management, did not inform existing investors of its concerns. That is despite the fact that Capita did write to existing investors informing them of the change of operator.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, and the number of Members who are present is an indication of the interest in this issue. Does he agree that the Financial Conduct Authority should publish the issues that resulted in it withdrawing from negotiations with Connaught and other parties so that, importantly, those who lost out in the collapse of this fund can know who they have cause to claim against and to blame?
Electoral Integrity and Absent Votes
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) for setting the scene on the subject of electoral registration. He mentioned Northern Ireland a couple of times and I want to add some of my thoughts. I expected more people to contribute to the debate. None the less, it is always a pleasure to do so.
The issue is important in Northern Ireland, and we have taken some substantial steps forward. The shadow Minister and particularly the Minister will probably give some detailed information about what is happening in Northern Ireland. If I were to put forward just one thought in this debate, it would be this: look to Northern Ireland, the changes we have made and the steps that we have taken. That should be the precedent for the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in addressing the issue.
In this day and age, surely we should have a flawless electoral system and elections that are completely free of any fraud or deceit. Following the recent by-election—this is an observation and nothing more—according to The Daily Telegraph:
“Police could be called in to investigate alleged fraud at the…Oldham by-election after council staff said some voters in polling booths ‘had no idea what they were doing there’”.
I do not know how true that is but it is a quotation from the paper, and it puts a question mark over how the system works. An unprecedented 100% of postal votes went to one party and, although it cannot be confirmed that there were any anomalies, eyebrows must surely be raised at such a staggering statistic. Many ask that question. It is not a reflection on those who vote, because they vote in the way that they wish to, but it strikes a question mark in many minds. I do not seek to make any accusations, but the fact that there is even the possibility of electoral fraud or deceit in this day and age should ring alarm bells for all of us.
In Northern Ireland in 2010, a parliamentary constituency—Fermanagh and South Tyrone—was decided by four votes. The decision was taken to court so that the honesty of the system could be looked at and verified. Three of the votes were removed, as the Minister, who is nodding his head, knows. The reality is that, technically speaking, that election was won by one vote. I am not saying that there was any fraud—people can make their minds up—but a court decision was taken, which changed the voting margin. It was a truly exceptional example.
With elections being run so tight, we need a flawless system to ensure that those who take their time to inform themselves and vote are doing so as equals with an equal weight to their vote, confident that the rest of the electorate will vote honestly and fairly. The Daily Telegraph also uncovered that a number of complaints were filed, with the police alleging electoral fraud at the general election in May and in the European and council elections in the previous May.
The professionals at the Electoral Commission do their very best to ensure electoral integrity, but there are still examples of the system not working and being open to deceit and fraud. More needs to be done, as the hon. Member for Peterborough said. We have the resources and the technology to make voter fraud a thing of the past, and we should be taking steps as a matter of urgency. The former Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Sir Eric Pickles), said:
“Within Whitehall as a minister, I found a complete reluctance by officials to take action on the warnings from local councillors and journalists of systematic corruption in the mayoral administration in Tower Hamlets. I would argue that state officialdom is in denial over the real state of electoral fraud in 21st-century Britain. The new Conservative government is no longer prepared to turn a blind eye to Britain’s modern-day rotten boroughs.”
As the Minister is nodding, I would expect that the steps to change that will be made. We should look to such examples of people who have opened their eyes to electoral fraud and are getting on with the business of eradicating it as a matter of urgency.
In Northern Ireland, we have taken steps forward on the electoral system, the regulations and the registration. One of the first things that happens in an individual registration is that someone calls to check who lives in the house; that means that we can confirm that there are so many people in the house. Those people are checked individually. Physical inability to attend polling stations in person is confirmed by doctors. If people go on holiday, they have to provide travel documentation to prove that they are away. There are real meaty conditions to ensure that those things happen.
Many years ago, it is rumoured—although many would say that it is factual—that there were those who voted from beyond the grave, which is quite a talent: quite impossible, if we are truthful. Changes were put in place to ensure that that did not happen. There were also houses from which a number of people were able to vote, but the only “people” who could access those houses had four legs and a tail. It was quite obvious that no human being could vote from those houses, so significant and direct measures and systems were put in place to ensure that that did not happen.
When it comes to addressing these issues, I suggest that we look to Northern Ireland—at how the electoral commissioner has addressed the issue there, and how we have taken the steps to ensure that electoral fraud is a thing of the past and that postal votes are registered and used by the person they are given to. I believe we have the system of a fair, equal, honest and integral vote, in whatever election it may be. Everybody who votes—and they expect their vote to be the one that will change things—has the ability to change the person and the party. We have set that precedent. I urge the House, the Minister and the shadow Minister to reply accordingly.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Before I call Mr Lord, I remind Members that the wind-ups will start no later than 5.20 pm.
Jonathan Lord
We need to gather more data. After elections there is always anecdotal talk of people turning up at polling stations and being told that their vote has already been cast. We need to know the scale of that problem to know whether the remedy is worse than the disease.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough that British democracy should be sacrosanct. People should know that the result of a ballot, whether it be in local, national or European elections—or indeed in elections to our devolved Parliaments—is absolutely correct. That becomes even more important on those occasions when the margin is four votes or one vote. Any fraud can change the result of our elections under a first-past-the-post system.
Jim Shannon
This intervention will be swift. We took those steps on identification in Northern Ireland, and the steps were sometimes hard. There are many forms of identification—driving licences, bus passes, passports, firearms certificates and benefits cards—and so long as they contain a photograph, they prove who people are. Yes, it might sometimes be an inconvenience, but it is a good idea because it works.
Jonathan Lord
The hon. Gentleman makes that point extremely powerfully. All that someone needs to commit electoral fraud under our system is a really good telling regime at the polling station; to knock out the postal voters; then, in the dying hours of polling, they can send people along to impersonate those people who the system shows have not already voted. That is exactly what used to happen in too many towns in Northern Ireland, I am afraid. We do not know for sure to what extent it might be happening here.
Post Office Closures
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to speak on this issue. I commend the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) for bringing it to Westminster Hall for consideration. This is a key issue in my constituency—as in, I believe, every other constituency. We have experienced a lot of changes to our post offices over the years, not all of them for the best, although some have been carried out constructively.
The post office is a national institution that has been at the heart of British society since its inception. The post office in my constituency is more than just a post office. The post office is a community hub for people in towns, villages and hamlets up and down the country. It holds together the fabric of society. My post office, although I do not visit it very often, is also a shop, and that is where the change has taken place. It is clearly the thriving centre of the village. For many of the people who go to the post office to post letters or whatever else, the social interaction they get there is vital. Without it, they would suffer.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
On the issue of the other services that local post offices provide, over the past 20 years there has been a reduction of almost 50% in the number of branch post offices, and that trend looks likely to continue. We need a fundamental reassessment of the services provided by branch post offices, particularly in rural areas.
Jim Shannon
As always, my hon. Friend sums up the whole debate in about two sentences. He is absolutely right. Those are clearly the issues, and that change needs to take place across the whole Post Office.
Post office restructuring and modernisation will affect different post offices in different ways. In some places, there is concern that the post office, its services and its community value will be lost. In others, including my constituency, the concern is about the staff who face dramatically increased working hours for the same wage. That issue has to be taken into consideration. When post offices, their services and their provisions are lost, our role is to protect those who are adversely affected by those changes. Elderly people can be left vulnerable and isolated by the loss of what for many is a community hub.
Over the years, I have had the chance to work with post office counters. I want to mention Mark Gibson, who has worked hard to make the necessary changes. Over the years, with his help and the help of local people, we were able to move local post offices into shops in several villages on the Ards peninsula: Kircubbin, Cloughey, Portavogie, Ballygowan, Saintfield and Ballynahinch. The Scrabo estate post office was moved into the Ards shopping centre. Those are the things that can be done if we have the co-operation of the post office counters and those who own shops.
Changes can result in job losses in my constituency, as well as the loss of the community value of the post office. We need to put in place mechanisms, to which my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred, to enable the post office to do more. For example, why cannot every post office deal with vehicle tax? That could be done in every post office across the Province. They could deal with benefits, banking and other things. I spoke to the Minister before the debate, so he knew that that question was coming. I hope for a full answer when he speaks.
We have some questions about the post offices in Ballywalter, Portavogie and Killyleagh in my constituency. They are coming into the new system. The postmasters and postmistresses are concerned about how the changes will take place, and the staff are worried about their working hours. Hopefully, relocating staff from closing post offices will alleviate that problem.
It seems that when the individual in charge of a post office decides that they no longer wish to trade, they simply shut up shop. On some occasions, post offices have closed. We were able to move all but one of the post offices I mentioned into other shops in the area. The hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle mentioned a post office that moved into a pub. That is unusual, but it is important that it was retained.
We warned about the drawbacks of the privatisation of the Post Office. Now that it has happened, the Government should do everything they can to ensure that the Post Office has plans in place to make adequate provision. I understand that the contract with the Post Office was geared towards requiring Post Office Ltd to find temporary or permanent replacements for closed post offices. We have to be careful about how the Government push Post Office Ltd. The Government need a hands-on approach to ensure that the major changes happen smoothly, that those who are adversely affected are protected, and that Post Office Ltd fulfils its contractual obligations.
In conclusion, the post office is an integral part of my society—the villages, estates and towns of Strangford, which I represent. People in those villages and estates need post offices for social interaction and for the services they provide. Post offices are the lifeblood of all the villages and estates in my constituency. My plea to the Minister is that he helps them to remain that way.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Gillan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) on securing this important debate. He is keen to ascertain what the Government will do to ensure that the Post Office has proper plans in place for provision and that, where there are problems, it acts quickly to ensure an available replacement, whether on a temporary or permanent basis.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) hit the nail on the head and spoke for everyone when he said that the post office is the heart of the community. Post offices are indeed an essential part of British life, providing somewhere for people not only to buy their stamps and post letters and parcels but, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Dr Monaghan) said, to access many other vital services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) said, sometimes they are the only places where people can access such services—it might not be possible to go anywhere else.
Of course, things do change. Quite often that is as a result of technological change. The hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) summed that up by saying that we are in a digital age and, as a result, the number of post offices has fallen in recent years. Most post office branches are operated by franchise partners or sub-postmasters who are independent business people, so, in order for their post offices to remain open, they often rely on Government subsidy. Despite some reassurance, clearly there are still real pressures, which have not been helped by the controversy surrounding the Post Office’s Horizon accounting system.
Many hon. Members have raised cases in the House in which it appears that honest and hard-working sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have had their reputation tarnished and livelihood threatened—in some cases they have lost their liberty—having been accused of improper accounting. Whatever the truth, in those cases computer software was responsible for the loss of large sums of money. Unquestionably, that may have acted as an off-putting factor for those who might have considered running a post office as part of their business.
In addition, as has been pointed out, some post office proprietors have been resigning from the business because they are concerned that their post offices are not financially viable. Local papers throughout the country are full of stories—I see them in my constituency—of postmasters and postmistresses struggling to stay in business. Often, that occurs where Post Office Ltd has changed the status of a local post office as part of national changes to the service, which leaves them having to rely on commission to offer what services they can.
When that happens, the survival of the post office is dependent on the viability of the shop in which it is contained and some complain that they cannot afford to run the post office, in particular owing to the extended opening hours demanded by Post Office Ltd. Will the Minister tell us how many sub-postmasters have resigned in the past year as a result of being unable to run their business profitably with a post office in their premises? What procedures do the Government expect them to follow when it becomes clear that a post office is in danger of closing?
Without proactive policies, thousands of constituents can be left without a local post office because Post Office Ltd is unable to rely on the good will of an individual operator. Does the Minister believe that Post Office Ltd is taking adequate steps to be proactive in preventing closure and acting swiftly enough to ensure that a replacement is available locally when a post office has to close? Indeed, does he believe that conditions put on replacements, such as very long opening hours, are unreasonable?
Jim Shannon
One thing that has not been mentioned but the Minister could take on board for his response is the possibility of incentivising financially those who want to take over a post office. Perhaps the Government need to offer a small financial bonus or incentive to enable people at least to consider that, based on a contract and proper conditions. That has happened in Northern Ireland and perhaps it should happen here as well.
Yvonne Fovargue
That is certainly something to put to the Minister. The Government have committed £640 million from 2015 to 2018 to fund the network transformation programme and to protect branches where vital services are provided to communities but the post office is not commercially viable. Is the Minister content that sufficient funding is being provided to fulfil that task? What will happen when the subsidy runs out in 2018? Can he guarantee that after that point the transformation programme will have ensured that remaining post offices are commercially viable? I look forward to his response.
Spending Review and Autumn Statement
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is always a pleasure to speak in the House. I thank the Chancellor for the good things that he is doing for Northern Ireland, which have been confirmed today. Other Members have spoken about them.
Next Tuesday will be World AIDS Day. The latest figures for the United Kingdom show a rise in HIV and sexually transmitted diseases. In the news today, the talk was that many clinics where diagnosis of sexually transmitted infections takes place would have their funding reduced. Can the Chancellor confirm that the extra moneys set aside for health will ensure that those clinics remain open so that STIs can be diagnosed at an early stage?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to World AIDS Day, and to the fact that we are funding the national health service and so can support screening for and research into sexually transmitted disease and provide support for people with HIV/AIDS. We have included in our announcements this week the £1 billion Ross fund, named after Ronald Ross, a Nobel laureate of this country. That will go towards disease research, which could well include the disease that the hon. Gentleman mentions.
Royal Bank of Scotland
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Guto Bebb
I would certainly say there is a need to look in detail at the way RBS is performing. There are questions still to be asked about the corporate culture within RBS and questions raised by the Banking Commission need to be looked at.
It is important to state that this is not a left-right political argument. There are think-tanks on the right that think we should look again at the UK banking model. There was strong agreement when my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) stated that the loss of the mutual in the 90s was a mistake for the financial structure of the UK. This is not a left-right argument; it is about trying to get things right and ensuring that, as a result of intervention in the market that we did not want to make, we deliver a better banking system. It is important to state that the reason for intervention in the market was much wider than making a profit for the taxpayer: it was to ensure the UK economy was protected at a very difficult time.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I have been listening to the debate in my office. One thing that has not been mentioned yet is the position of Ulster Bank customers. The first time the computer glitch happened, the Democratic Unionist party went to meet the chief executive officer of the bank. For a number of days, people had no access to money. That has happened not once, but at least three or four times. Ulster Bank customers had no access to their bank or credit cards for days and sometimes whole weekends—no money. Does the hon. Gentleman not feel that the banks need to sort out their systems? Let us make sure they have a system that works and that customers have the quality service they deserve.
Guto Bebb
I am absolutely aware of the problems with Ulster Bank—not only computer glitches but undoubtedly questionable past behaviour—and I associate myself with the hon. Gentleman’s comments.
When hon. Members talk about the need to sell RBS shares at a profit, it is important to bear in mind the context. The intervention was not just to make a profit; it was an intervention to ensure that we protected the UK economy. It gave people confidence in the financial system.
We need to address some of the concerns specific to RBS from a small business perspective. I speak as the former chair of the all-party group on the mis-selling of interest rate derivatives, which now has the much snappier name of the all-party group on small business banking. I would be delighted if I never had to speak about RBS again in my entire life. I would delighted if I did not have to talk about the mis-selling of financial products for small businesses ever again. Yet again, as I mentioned earlier, I was with the FCA for three hours. I spent four hours in a redress meeting between a small business and RBS, and I have had various meetings with RBS staff in relation to some of the articles that have appeared in the press during the week. There are still issues that need to be resolved. The Treasury needs to have confidence that when it talks about moving RBS back into the private sector, it does so with a full grasp of the problems that RBS still faces.
One concern is that the excellent Treasury Committee report into small business banking and finance for small businesses has not, as yet, received a response from the Treasury. I asked a question about this, but as yet no response has been forthcoming. The report makes very critical comments about RBS, among others, and the potential liabilities still faced by RBS, among others. I am therefore at a loss as to why the decision has been taken to return RBS to private hands when the Treasury has not even responded to the concerns raised by the Treasury Committee. I would like to see that issue at rest.
Tax Credits
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
First, let me say that I do not think many people disagree with the analysis that has been made about tax credits. The question is: will the Government’s approach and the timing of their reduction solve the problem and avoid the difficulties that have been identified?
Let me deal with the three arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), the first of which was that Government credibility is at stake. In a democracy, it is not just the credibility of the Government that is important, but the fairness of the policies they are undertaking. They might argue that they are dealing with the deficit and taking tough action, and that those are good things, but those affected must also feel that they are being treated fairly. I do not believe there is fairness in this policy, because it does affect those people at the lower wage end of the economy. As has been said, we are talking about the strivers in society—the people who want to make a contribution and yet find themselves undermined.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
My hon. Friend has mentioned the issue of those who are going to be hit hardest. Some 300,000 more children will be put into poverty, as has been confirmed by the children’s charities. Does he share their concerns?
Sammy Wilson
My hon. Friend makes an important point. In Northern Ireland, 33,000 of those who will be affected have two or more children, and the impact is likely to be about £2,500 per year on them. The issue of fairness is therefore important.
The second point that the hon. Member for Spelthorne made was that this was the right time. The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) argued that the economy is buoyant, but that is not true in all sectors, or in all regions. There are many places where the labour market will not push up wages and where there is not the competition for employers to say, “We will have to hold on to workers by pushing up their wages to the national living wage or beyond.” It is not the right time in many parts or in many sectors of the economy. As the Office for Budget Responsibility has said—as has the Adam Smith Institute, which is hardly a hotbed of left-wing subversives who want to wreck the Government’s policy—the policy will price thousands of workers out of the labour market.
Finally, the safety nets that exist are not there for everybody. For example, the national living wage will not apply to a large group of people in society—to those who are under the age of 25. The new approach to housing benefit will not help those who are in the private rented sector, so they will face housing costs. The childcare costs will not apply right across the board. We will find similar things if we go through many of the other safety nets that the Government say they have put in place. For all the reasons that I have mentioned, this is an unfair change in policy.
Some Members have asked, “What is the alternative?” May I just say that I served as Finance Minister in Northern Ireland, and we had to find 5% cuts in the middle of a financial year, and then 3% cuts every year for four years? There is enough room in a budget of £400 billion to find the changes that are required to fund the phasing in of these kinds of changes. We do not have time to discuss that today, but suggestions have already been made. If this is a policy that the Government want to pursue, the real challenge is to find ways of introducing it humanely, fairly and effectively.
Air Passenger Duty: Regional Airports
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to speak on this matter, and I thank the hon. Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) for securing the debate. As the hon. Gentleman and others, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), have said, air passenger duty is a very important issue for us in Northern Ireland. Air passenger duty can be a positive means of raising revenue but can also be an obstacle to growth. If changes are not brought in it will be a problem for us in Northern Ireland.
Members are no doubt aware that our airports are in direct competition with those in the Republic of Ireland, so I am pleased to speak on this issue and to make a plea for Belfast City airport, for Belfast Aldergrove airport and for Londonderry airport. With air passenger duty set to be halved in Scotland, this debate is timely and will, I hope, ignite a national conversation on the issue, regardless of which side of the debate people are on. Given the potential for Scotland to reduce APD—and perhaps Wales as well—we have to look at the issue across the whole of the United Kingdom.
As I have said, it is now certain that the duty will be at least halved in Scotland, and the Scottish First Minister has indicated her preference for its eventual abolition. As that is the intention, we must be ready and able to respond. With signs that Wales could soon follow suit, the disparity in APD across the UK is likely to push regional airports in England and Northern Ireland further towards supporting the abolition of the duty.
Data from the Civil Aviation Authority show that the numbers of terminal passengers—that is, passengers joining or leaving aircraft at the reporting airport—were the equal highest ever, at around 240 million a year; again, those figures indicate how important this issue is. It is clear that despite air passenger duty, demand has not decreased but in fact increased, suggesting that people will want to fly regardless of APD. However, the increase in traffic has not been evenly spread, and as the hon. Gentleman and others have said, regional airports are losing out—airports outside London, in Wales, in Scotland and, in particular, in Northern Ireland. That is why those airports are making a case for at least some reduction in air passenger duty, with Wales and Scotland already on course to deliver, and why this debate is important to me: as MP for Strangford, as I see Belfast City airport as the airport for the people of my constituency.
As well as regional disadvantages, APD is at risk of creating a socioeconomic divide, where those with the ability to pay can enjoy the benefits of air travel when and where they want, while those without it are left using other, less appropriate means of transport. Air passenger duty raises approximately £3 billion a year in tax revenue, year on year, for the United Kingdom but, as I said, despite its introduction, demand has risen rather than fallen. Although APD is a form of revenue raising it has failed in its aim of reducing demand and carbon demand. If something is broken—and in this case, it is—let us fix it. It is clear that APD does not work for regional airports across the whole of the United Kingdom.
We could point to the revenue the duty raises as a justification for continuing with it, but there is evidence that we would be better off without it, not just with regard to regional airports or people from lower socioeconomic groups, but with regard to the economy as a whole. The figures have already been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson), and point to the benefits of the abolition of air passenger duty to regional airports, not least those across the water in Northern Ireland. That is a keen concern for me and my party colleagues.
The benefits of abolishing air passenger duty would be seen across the entire United Kingdom. According to PricewaterhouseCoopers, abolishing the duty would see the UK economy grow by a staggering 0.5% in the first fiscal year alone. Crucially, the UK Treasury would see an extra £570 million in tax receipts in the first year after abolition resulting from increased demand for air travel, as well as any additional tax receipts from trade linked to air travel.
The figures are clear and cannot be argued with. They indicate the need for a change. That change would benefit the Treasury and everyone across the United Kingdom, so it seems very much to be a win-win situation. Increased activity in the sector would mean an increase in jobs and economic success and security for our constituents. Our party is on the record as supporting the third runway at Heathrow—we said that in the Chamber last night—and are keen to see it go forward, as we see connectivity with the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a plus. That is the good news. We also need a reduction in air passenger duty, because if action is taken it is clear that we will all benefit.
In Northern Ireland we know all too well how much air passenger duty influences airlines’ decisions about doing business. We compete directly with the Republic of Ireland in this sector and need only to look at what happened when air passenger duty was abolished in the Irish Republic. The figures are interesting: Dublin airport increased its number of passengers from the north of the border—my constituents, those of the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) and of other Northern Ireland MPs. That is proof, if ever proof were needed, that APD is an obstacle to business, growth and prosperity and security for our people.
It is time we took heed of the facts—the revenue that could be generated by abolishing APD, as well as what abolition has done for the Republic of Ireland and how that has hurt us in Northern Ireland, in particular. Let us set the potential of the air travel industry free, and we can spread the prosperity from that industry fairly across the United Kingdom so that we all gain.
Drew Hendry
Absolutely. We would be delighted to see HS2 reach Scotland; indeed, we have always said it should start in Scotland and be developed southwards.
My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) mentioned the impact that the development of regional airports has on tourism. Nowhere is that more true than in her constituency, but it is now an expensive destination because of the policy we have had. As we heard, Elvis left the building, and he was not encouraged to come back subsequently—regrettably, he cannot do so now.
The hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) talked about APD’s effect on Blackpool airport. He said that the airport needs support, but that it has been left in a precarious position over the years. That is very similar to the position in Inverness and Dundee, so I have a great feeling of common purpose with him. We must make sure that routes are not dropped just because there is a more profitable option elsewhere. These routes are important lifelines for the communities they serve.
We have heard about the proposals for the reduction and abolition of APD in Scotland. I am pleased to say that those are yet another good idea from the SNP Government, and they seem to have gained quite a lot of support around the room. They make sense, and it is important that we go ahead with them.
As the MP for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, I understand the impact of APD. Regional airports such as Inverness and Dundee have long suffered the inequity of APD, but they are not alone, because other airports suffer too, and Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen are not well served by APD either. As we have heard, Prestwick could very much benefit from the proposed change. Air connectivity is vital to the local economy, and I am pleased that it will be—in fact, I am impatient for it to be—in the Scottish Government’s hands.
The UK introduced APD in 1994 to raise revenue from the aviation industry, anticipating that it would have environmental benefits through its effect on air traffic volumes. When it was introduced, it took the form of a flat £5 charge on flights in the UK and a £10 charge on other flights. It has been changed many times over the years. It was doubled in 1996, lowered in 2000, frozen between 2001 and 2007 and doubled from February 2007. It was then changed under the Labour Government in 2008 and the coalition Government in 2010. In 2013, it was increased, and the Chancellor made further changes in 2014 and 2015. This APD hokey cokey, married with the here today, gone tomorrow effect on routes and regional airports, has done nothing to help regional economies in places such as Inverness and Dundee or in the other constituencies represented by Members around the Chamber.
I point to those changes because, throughout all these years, successive Governments have failed to support regional airports. My constituents have suffered under the current approach. In addition to devolving APD powers as quickly as possible, we need public service obligations on routes to regional airports, as well as guarantees on those routes. We also need more flexibility on route development.
By 2016, £210 million less per annum will be spent in Scotland by inbound visitors than would have been the case if APD had not risen since 2007. That is a staggering figure. When power is transferred, the Scottish Government are committed to reducing APD by 50% by the end of the next Parliament, with a view to eventually abolishing the tax when public finances allow. Their plans to abolish APD have been welcomed by the British Air Transport Association, Aberdeen and Glasgow airports, VisitScotland and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce.
Sophie Dekkers, the UK director for easyJet—Scotland’s largest airline—has said:
“When APD is halved passengers in Scotland will quickly feel the benefit, with easyJet and other airlines adding more services to existing destinations and launching flights to new destinations from Scotland.”
Again, that would be welcome news for my constituents, who have long suffered the effect of here today, gone tomorrow flights.
Jim Shannon
In the scenario that the hon. Gentleman has outlined, if Scotland were to abolish APD, and given that the Republic has already done it, Northern Ireland would be the meat in the sandwich. It is important that Northern Ireland as well as Scotland gets to do it. Does he agree?
Drew Hendry
I absolutely agree, and support the devolution of powers to the nations of the UK in that way.
A consultation on a Scottish replacement to APD has been launched by the Scottish Government. It will give the people of Scotland and other interested parties the opportunity to provide their views—public views—on the design and structure of a Scottish APD. A Scottish APD stakeholder forum has also been established to help provide expert policy input in the preparation of policy proposals for Scottish APD, involving the air transport industry, environmental groups and tax practitioners and advisers. Devolution of APD to the Scottish Parliament will provide an opportunity to design a replacement tax that better supports our objective to improve connectivity to Scottish airports, generating new direct routes and increasing inbound tourism.
Reducing APD will have a positive impact on passengers, business costs and connectivity. However, as I have said, our support for regional airports should not end there. We need to make sure that the UK Government will do more to support regional airports, with a review of the current public service obligation regimes. The current criterion is too narrow and limits opportunities for regional airports.
Tax Credits
Jim Shannon Excerpts(8 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
It is unfortunate that we have only 90 minutes to debate the regulations, but it is absolutely right that we should debate them on the Floor of the House. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field) has done us a great service in bringing this matter to the Floor of the House. It is worth reflecting, however, that the reason why there is not more public outrage about the proposed changes is a reflection of the sheer complexity of our tax and benefit system. That will have to be addressed—not in this way—in the medium to long term.
There was a lot in the Minister’s speech with which I could agree quite easily. When he spoke about the importance of raising the personal tax allowance, the very welcome increases to the minimum wage and the importance of providing better childcare provision, those are all things with which I could have no difficulty. The difficulty I have with the regulations is that at a stroke they negate the benefits the Minister outlined. It ought surely to be a matter of common consensus in all parts of the House that the best route out of poverty is through work, but what the Government are doing today is giving with one hand and taking away with the other.
Mr Carmichael
I am sorry, but I am short of time.
The average household in social housing could lose up to £1,700 a year under the changes. That means for every extra £1 earned, they will lose up to 93p in benefits. That is why the Government are not true to their stated intent to encourage people off welfare and into work by bringing forward changes of this sort.
To understand why today’s statutory instrument is the wrong measure at the wrong time, it is worth reflecting on what happened to people’s employment circumstances after the 2008 crash. We expected steep rises in unemployment, and sure enough it went up, but not to the extent we expected, because employers kept people in work. However, their wages were frozen or reduced and those in part-time employment saw their hours cut. We can now see the light at the end of the tunnel—at last, we are seeing some wage inflation—but surely at this moment the Government should be encouraging people to take more hours, not removing the incentives to do so.
The hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) made a characteristically thoughtful contribution, and one of the most significant. He said the Government’s proposals were strategically correct. He might well be right about that, but what he said thereafter in the rest of his contribution indicated they were tactically inept. I address myself to him and other Government Members who share his concerns, because they are part of the most powerful group in the House: Government Back Benchers. The Government have a majority of 12, so it needs only six of them to vote with us to take this down and make them think again. I say to him, because I know he is a genuine man, that if he has not had his assurances and compensations before the vote, he will not get them after it.