Foreign Fishermen (Visas)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

This issue is important to my constituency and many other constituencies across the United Kingdom. Along with being in the armed forces, commercial sea fishing represents the most dangerous occupation in the United Kingdom—a fact that would be confirmed by our fishermen and those who represent them. The programme “Deadliest Catch” and the film “The Perfect Storm” illustrate very clearly the issues that fishermen face each and every day.

A combination of increasing regulatory burdens and decreasing financial returns, compounded by the antisocial nature of the job, has led to local UK share fishermen drifting away from the occupation. Although there is a method in place to address the problems, we need some help moving things along, which is why I sought this debate. Although the drifting away is not a universal trend within the industry, the larger part of the fleet, comprising those trawlers targeting certain species such as cod, haddock, whiting and nephrops, has been particularly vulnerable to the trend for the past decade and more.

The take-home wage is a key concern of the fishermen. It does not always reflect the nature of the work, which has been brought into our homes by the TV series “Trawlermen”. Figures from the Sea Fish Industry Authority’s regular economic surveys of the fleet show that the average gross annual wage for a Northern Ireland-based share fisherman works out at approximately £15,000, less their tax and stamp. Other hon. Members will speak on behalf of their areas, but I suspect that the wage will be similar. Given the salaries available in other sectors, it is no wonder that many share fishermen have chosen to leave the industry.

There is a perception that share fishermen are mainly unskilled or unqualified workers, but that is not the case. Regrettably, fishermen’s skills and the qualifications that they are required by law to possess go largely unrecognised outside the fishing sector. The sea fishing industry has changed dramatically over the past few years to become a multi-million-pound industry. Skippers and their crews work on modern, sophisticated vessels and are expected to be highly skilled technicians who are able to act as efficient harvesters of the seas and to operate a range of electronic instruments for safe navigation and for finding fish. Gone are the days of throwing a net over the side of a boat to catch fish; it is much more sophisticated now.

Share fishermen in the UK are self-employed, so they have the option of looking for alternative employment in either the marine or onshore sectors. Trawler owners, on the other hand, still have a business to manage and bank loans to repay. They have a choice. Of course they will pursue every opportunity available to them to enhance the value of their catch or reduce their overheads so that the profit and consequently the crew share can be maximised. I can cite several examples from my constituency of Strangford where trawler owners are working collectively to bulk-purchase fuel and promote the local consumption of their catch. They are doing everything practically and physically possible to improve their profit margins. Despite taking such actions, crewing problems persist. Consequently, trawler owners are forced to look for alternative crewing arrangements.

The European Union and its common fisheries policy possess few positive aspects for our fishing fleet. One such aspect has been to increase the labour pool. With the expansion of the EU eastwards, many citizens of the independent Baltic states have found their way to the periphery of the Union and have been able to secure positions as crew members on board UK-based trawlers. Many of the new recruits to the UK’s fishing industry had previous fishing industry and merchant navy experience. However, they lacked the recognised qualifications required by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. That obstacle, compounded by language difficulties, was largely overcome. None the less, significant investment was required on the part of the trawler owners, as interpreters were drafted in to assist tutors in delivering the courses that resulted in the mandatory qualifications.

Let me set out where we are, and then I will outline how we can move forward.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman has laid out very well the situation of the share fishermen. People come in from other countries to do the work of a share fisherman, and there are many jobs onshore that are dependent on their work. Barratlantic in my constituency has told me that if it loses its three overseas fishermen, it will have to lay off members of staff at its fish factory, because fewer fish will be landed. That underlines how important it is that we manage to keep those skilled men working on our boats in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The wonderful thing about being an MP—apart from the privilege of being here—is that the issues that are prevalent in the area that I represent are the same as those in Scotland, England and Wales. They are not specific to my constituency alone, which is why we need the help of Westminster, the Government and the Minister.

Despite the difficulties, the first wave of immigrant fishermen addressed many of the crewing problems. However, the economic factors, which are well known to many of us across the UK, meant that many of the immigrants began to return home. UK trawler owners almost found themselves in chapter two of the crewing crisis, and that is where we are today. Consequently, trawler owners and their agents began to look further afield. In 2006, the first Filipino fishermen began to appear in fishing communities around the UK, and particularly in Scotland. The trend started in Scotland and then made its way across the rest of the UK, to England and Northern Ireland.

Filipino fishermen are different from their UK colleagues, in that they tend to be employed. In addition, as the Philippines, like the UK, is surrounded by sea, all the new recruits who came over to the UK tended to have seagoing experience, and indeed fishing experience, with qualifications that on the most part were recognised by the UK, including by the MCA. Furthermore, as I have heard for myself, their knowledge of the English language is impressive. I have spoken to some of these Filipino fishermen in the port of Portavogie, and I must say that they are very clear in what they are telling me.

The first Filipino fishermen arrived in Northern Ireland in 2007 and their numbers in the three ports along the County Down coast increased quickly. They filled, and continue to fill, an important void in trawler crews at a critical time for the industry. Access to the UK was achieved through transit visas, an important condition of which is the requirement that the vessel to which they are attached spend the majority of its fishing time outside UK territorial waters. In fact, these fishermen were not permitted to live on shore. That was probably quite a strict condition, but they none the less tried to keep to it.

As I have mentioned, the primary difference between the Filipino fishermen and other immigrant fishermen from outside the European economic area on the one hand, and UK share fishermen on the other, is that the former group are employed. As such, they have a contract of employment with the trawler owners, and those contracts carry with them obligations for the owners—obligations to do with pay, insurance cover and travel costs. The take-home pay of a British share fisherman varies from trawler to trawler and from week to week, depending on the weather and the danger that they face. Their pay is based on a share of the trawlerman’s profits. If a trawler makes no profit, then the crewmen get no salary, so it is clear that the Filipino fisherman has an advantage that the share fisherman does not. Employed crew members’ contracts stipulate a minimum weekly wage, and bonuses are then paid, which differ from trawler to trawler. Overall, however, when all the costs are accumulated, the share of the profit and the salary paid to any crew member are very similar.

However, a big difference is the fact that, from the outset, the transit visa required non-EEA fishermen to live on board the trawlers. Although their living conditions are no different from those of UK fishermen, the non-EEA fishermen do not get a break from those conditions during their contracts, which can last for several months.

In many of the ports where the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen has a presence, immigrant fishermen have availed themselves of the mission’s facilities. Indeed, in some ports, such as Troon and Kilkeel, the mission opened mini-centres to provide rest and relaxation facilities for visiting UK fishermen and immigrant fishermen alike. As always, the mission needs to be commended for the Christian service that it provides, and the Christian witness that it bears to fishermen all over the UK. I pay tribute to it.

Unfortunately, there have been occasions when owners have been accused of abusing crew members. I will put this on record: some crew members have made certain claims. However, I met Filipino fishermen no more than a month ago in Portavogie and spoke to them, basically through an interpreter. I know that some people in this Chamber have difficulty following my accent, so I suspect that the Filipinos in Portavogie probably had even more difficulty. Fortunately, however, we had a translator, and I was able to convey to them that I would be bringing this matter to the House within a short time.

[Mr MacNeil]

As somebody else who causes some difficulties for Hansard—I am quite proud of that fact—I would like to back up what the hon. Gentleman is saying and talk about another aspect of the issue. In my experience, fishermen who have lost a man because he has returned to the Philippines have not sought to replace him with another Filipino. They have been quite specific in wanting to get the man who they have got to know to come back and work with them. That shows the building of personal relationships, and indeed friendships of a certain kind, between men when they are out fishing together. I find that quite heartening, and it is quite the opposite of some of the scare stories. That has been my experience in this field.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman again for his contribution. There is a very strong bond of friendship, loyalty, togetherness and comradeship that comes from being together on a small boat. I do not know if other Members have ever had the chance to get out on a fishing boat. If they have not, they should take the opportunity to go out in one. They would see the small section of the boat that the fishermen sleep in. If they were not claustrophobic before, they certainly would be afterwards, because it is almost incredibly small.

Whenever I have met the Filipino fishermen in Portavogie, an area that I represent back home, I have seen their commitment. When they were wanted at 4 am down in the harbour, they were there. In fact, they were there perhaps half an hour before they were going out on the boats. They were always on time and they worked hard all day. That is how they did things. As the hon. Gentleman has said very clearly, the Filipino fishermen have a strong commitment to work.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. To back up what he has just said, one fishing boat skipper told me that if he goes to sleep at night, he wants to be sure that the person at the wheel is somebody in whom he has complete trust. The bond and the trust that are built up over a number of years are very important, and that is why there is a desire to retain these employees.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which highlights the fact that, right across the UK, the same issues apply to us all. It also highlights our knowledge as elected representatives of immigrant fishermen, and Filipino fishermen in particular, and the need to have them retained in the fishing industry in the areas that we represent.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman has been very kind in giving way and sharing his time. One of the difficulties that the people and the companies that want these men to return have raised with me is the cost involved. There are legal fees of £1,250 plus VAT; there are the Home Office fees of £1,000; and there is a further fee of £170 for every sponsor’s certificate issued. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that, especially at this time, those are costs that businesses should not really be facing on an almost continual or cyclical basis? Perhaps the Migration Advisory Council should seek to reclassify these fishermen and put them into the specialisms that they are quite clearly and patently qualified for.

[Jim Shannon]

I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Gentleman about the costs involved. Those costs seem to increase every year, and continuously throughout the year. I am also concerned about them.

Filipino fishermen have had Filipino consular staff down to see them and speak to them about the matters that affect them. I have discussed the issue of the Filipino fishermen with the UK Border Agency on two occasions, and I had occasion to table a question for the Minister for Immigration on the subject just last year. These are important matters for us as representatives of the fishing industry, but I must say that they are even more important for the Filipino fishermen and the trawler skippers for whom they work.

During 2008 and 2009, there were extensive consultations between the UK Border Agency, industrial representatives and others. The UK Border Agency became aware of just how valuable both the non-UK fishermen and the non-EEA fishermen were to the continued safe operation of the fishing industry. That point about safety backs up the points that the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), and for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), have made about the safe operation of boats. Whenever the skipper goes to sleep at night, he wants to be sure that the person in charge of the boat knows what they are doing. That is exactly the issue that we are discussing.

The transit visas that I mentioned were due to last some 18 months, expiring in September 2011. That is why we are having this debate in Westminster Hall today. Perhaps we can get an extension to those visas, or some concession or help from the Minister’s Department.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman has made a very good point about safety. Earlier, I talked about people getting to know each other and forming a bond. I have been told that one of the reasons why the trawler owners do not want just anybody is that it takes a person time to get used to each individual boat and to know exactly where certain ropes, anchors, grappling hooks and other pieces of equipment are, or where the hauler is controlled, on each individual boat. That is a genuine reason for keeping a man who has experience of a particular boat on that boat, rather than just seeking anybody. I have had fishing employers come to me to ensure that an individual who is skilled and trained on their boat remains on their boat. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman finds exactly the same thing in his area.

[Jim Shannon]

The area that I represent is exactly the same. The knowledge that is earned on one boat is perhaps slightly different to the knowledge earned on another. It takes time to get used to a boat. I mentioned that earlier, when I said that today’s fisherman has so much more to learn than his predecessors of 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

[Mr Reid]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for being so generous in giving way. I want to back up the point that he made. This is a highly skilled job, and it should be put on the list of occupations for which employers should be able to get work permits, as long as employers can demonstrate that they have made every effort to recruit fishermen from within the EU. In those circumstances, they should be allowed to obtain visas, particularly to retain the staff whom they already have and in whom they have trust and confidence.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point, because it is the crux of the issue, and of our requests to the Minister and the Department.

Of the 1,500 visas that were allocated, only 70 were taken up. That might prompt the question, “If only 70 people took them up, do we really need them?” but the fact is we do. It was not that the interest was not there. The key experience and skills of the people involved is very important, and those who were able to fill the void before the Filipino fishermen came have now, by and large, gone back to eastern Europe. There have been, and still are, experienced and qualified fishermen working on the trawlers, and the issue today is that fishermen and employers do not want to lose that expertise come September 2011, which is what they say will happen.

[Mr MacNeil]

On a point of information, the period when only 70 applications were taken up was before the last election, when the hon. Gentleman was not in the House. I can remember it clearly, and people came to see me on the subject. The problems were those of bureaucracy, often in Manila. What with the employment agencies and the visa-issuing authorities in Manila, it was difficult to get people out and across. Had it not been for those bureaucratic hurdles, a lot more than 70 people would have arrived.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. Yes, that was before my time. He is absolutely right that there was a pervasive level of bureaucracy that prevented people from applying.

I am conscious of the time, and intend to bring my speech to a conclusion. It remains the case that most people signing on for the dole are dissuaded from seeking a job in the commercial fishing fleet because of the long hours, the low wages, the uncertainties of the weather and the dangers of the job. There is also the question of the investment that trawler owners need to make to train fishermen who might then choose not to stay in the job. Consequently, there is a need for non-EEA or immigrant workers to fill the gaps in onshore occupations, and a clear need for us to retain the fishermen, particularly the Filipinos.

The Migration Advisory Committee recently launched a consultation to update its shortage occupation list, and I encourage the UK fishing industry’s representatives to make representations as part of that process. That would, in basic terms, entail the monetary reward that is available to share fishermen reflecting the sacrifices they make and the skills they have. We need a long-term solution to the crewing problems that the fishing fleets face, and I encourage the UK Border Agency, together with the other agencies involved, to instigate discussions with fishing industry representatives soon. I also call on the Home Office and the UK Border Agency to review the situation regarding the temporary visas that they issued early last year. I am aware that the non-EEA fishermen to whom the visas were issued, together with the trawler owners who employ them, have acted responsibly and sensibly, and I suggest that that could and should be reflected in an extension to the September 2011 expiry date.

In Northern Ireland, as in the rest of the UK, commercial sea fishing is a valuable industry, often based in remote coastal communities. It employs highly qualified technicians, whose skill, and indeed bravery and courage, in harvesting the seas around our islands must be acknowledged. Many of our fishermen’s management responsibilities have been mistakenly surrendered to the EU, but that is a different debate for a different day. Assisting with employment in the sector is, I suggest, a small but very important way in which the House can help the industry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lynne Featherstone]

I give way to the hon. Member for Strangford.

[Jim Shannon]

I am conscious of the time. What we have is a skilled work force. We need a concession for them, and we are asking the Minister to use her position within the Department to ensure that we get it. People have tried hard to get workers to take those places. It has not worked, but we have a skilled work force. There is a spin-off onshore. If we do not catch fish at sea, we cannot do further processing on land, and that is what leads to job losses.

[Lynne Featherstone]

In my understanding, the reason that that is not possible is that the work force are designated as non-skilled. I understand what the hon. Gentleman says about the skill of the Filipinos, who are seafaring folk and understand the business, but in terms of the normal visa applications, they would be made under tier 3. The reason that people do not want to do the job is that it is cold, wet and nasty and does not pay brilliantly, not that they cannot learn the skills needed. I assure hon. Members that I am listening to their passionate pleas. I am not standing here like a stone wall; I hear the case being made. Nevertheless, I must push back a bit because of the levels of unemployment in those areas and because there has been the need for a concession.

The UK Border Agency is considering ways to ensure that all UK-based crew, including those whose journeys take them beyond the 12-mile territorial limit but not to foreign ports on a routine basis, will be properly paid and accommodated. Tier 3 of the points-based system for low-skilled labour remains closed, however. As I said, the case for changing that must be made to the Migration Advisory Committee. It is important that that case is made, as the Government can go only so far.

I recognise that the requirements of the concession may have created anomalies between the levels of payment of different fishing fleets and contracted foreign fishing workers working on the same vessels. Foreign fishers have a defined income, as was described, and certainty about income for the period of their contracts, which was obviously a difficulty, but that is coming to an end. The Government’s job—

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It was Winston Churchill who said:

“All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope”.

It is under the banner of freedom and democracy that our troops fight on foreign fields, and it is freedom that we celebrate in Northern Ireland on 12 July each year.

I support much of what is put forward by the coalition Government in the Bill, but I have some concerns. The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), the shadow Home Secretary, clearly and eloquently outlined one of our main concerns: the relaxation of the vetting procedures. I am concerned to see that through their deliberations members of the Committee protect children. If that does not happen—I suspect that it will—we will take the opportunity to table amendments on Report.

On the subject of regulation of biometric data—we have all heard the comments about that—I am firmly opposed to any kind of nanny state, but I do not believe that freedom can or should be used as a licence to behave in any way with no consequence. In other words, people must be accountable for their actions and those who break the law must pay the price; they have, in my opinion, limited their own freedom by their choice of action. I firmly believe that, in accordance with section 63D of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, people’s DNA should be held on record if they are found guilty of any crime. I am somewhat perturbed, however, that section 63D(2)(a) allows for the destruction of DNA if

“the taking of the fingerprint or, in the case of a DNA profile, the taking of the sample from which the DNA profile was derived, was unlawful”.

That is clear, and I am concerned about it.

In my opinion, even if correct protocol has been followed and the sample has been taken lawfully, if the suspect is subsequently found innocent they should have their DNA record destroyed, as they have no criminal conviction. Is the Minister aware, and will she clarify it in her response, that as of 24 April 2009 almost 1 million unconvicted persons had records on the national DNA database? A very small minority of those people are still under investigation; the remainder will have been found innocent of any crime. During 2008-09, only 283 innocent individuals were successful in getting their records deleted under the “exceptional cases” provisions. That was touched on by the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) and many others in the debate. This issue must be specified clearly in the Bill, and we will seek to achieve that in Committee.

There are many other issues with biometric information, such as the collection and retention of schoolchildren’s DNA information, which caused upset of late in a school not far from my constituency. It became clear that parents must and should have a complete veto on the collection and storage of their children’s genetic make-up. Children have been particularly affected by the expansion of the DNA database, as there has been a significant increase in the number of young people arrested following minor crimes or even false accusations. Some offences have been as minor as pulling each other’s hair or damage to trees and fences. Labelling children as criminals at an early age can be counter-productive, and I hope that will be taken on board in Committee.

Under part 3, “Protection of property from disproportionate enforcement action”, I welcome the provision in clause 54 to make it unlawful for clampers to clamp on private land. I have heard the clamping by one firm described as legalised mugging, and although that brought a laugh, there is some truth in it. All Members have had examples of abuses by clampers brought to their attention.

[Naomi Long]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the matter is devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Although the problem has not been as significant there as it has been elsewhere, I believe that a review of clamping regulations in Northern Ireland is to be undertaken.

[Jim Shannon]

Perhaps I have cornered the market in those who have problems with clampers, but I have heard plenty of concerns expressed. I have had complaints nearly every other week. It got to the stage where I was on first name terms with the people in the companies concerned, although I am not sure whether that was good for them or me.

In my area, a firm of clampers was brought in by residents, but the clampers began to clamp visitors to those residents along with everyone else, and it was realised that there was no regulation of clamping and that the clampers were a law unto themselves. We have all heard horror stories about clamping firms. I won a case in which a lady was clamped who had a disabled child and needed her vehicle for transportation and so paid the fine. Unbelievably, the clampers informed her after payment that the guys who unclamped vehicles were headed home for the weekend and she would have to wait until Monday. After a number of phone calls, I got them to come back and do the right thing by letting her drive away. It is abhorrent that such daylight robbery, though morally defunct, was legally acceptable. The Home Office estimates that 500,000 drivers every year are clamped on private land. The week before last, I read in a newspaper that a lady who worked in a taxi firm had come outside to find her car had been clamped. She contacted her firm, and the taxi drivers, like a wagon train, surrounded the clamping car until the impasse was sorted out.

It is estimated that the public pay out £55 million in clamping fees, which benefit nobody apart from the clamping companies. Towing away will also be outlawed, with private landowners still able to regulate parking by erecting a barrier to keep drivers out or charging regulated parking fees. The ban will apply only on private land and will not affect clamping and towing by lawful authorities such as the police, local authorities or Driver and Vehicle Licensing Northern Ireland. That means that those who do not pay appropriate tax or adhere to signage will be held accountable. That must be good news, and a system is in place to ensure that that happens. Councils will continue to have the power to tow away cars abandoned on private land. Police can also remove vehicles that are causing an obstruction or are dangerously parked, providing a redress for home and business owners. In relation to clause 56, however, I believe that a reasonable standardised fee should be introduced to regulate extortionate fees that may still be levied. I hope that the Minister will address that point, because the Bill provides the opportunity to clarify maximum fees.

In one of his plays, Shakespeare wrote, “Kill all lawyers,” which was a bit extreme, but some people have used similar terminology in relation to clamping companies. I tell them that that is just words and does not mean much, but I am hopeful that it will no longer be the quotation used in my constituency if the Bill is amended and tightened up.

Harking back to the need to control legislation, there was a great deal of concern some time ago about local councils spying on people through bugged litter bins. I hope that the Bill will provide protection in that regard. I would commend the use of CCTV, which is a kind of sleeping policeman that observes at a distance all that takes place. While one Member mentioned that he had only one complaint against CCTV, every person who comes to me tells me that they want more CCTV. In my opinion, CCTV is a weapon that we should use, as the coverage that such cameras record enables us to catch those involved in unlawful incidents. As someone who watches late-night television programmes such as “CSI”, I am always impressed by the number of policemen who come on to a crime scene outside a pub or restaurant or in the street, and I just wish that some cases in the past had had the same level of response.

I commend the Bill, although I have concerns that I hope will be addressed in Committee. If that is not the case, I put down a marker that we will address those matters on the Floor of the House when the opportunity arises.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Brake]

Of course we must. Whenever a massive database is introduced, there is significant potential for errors such as mismatches to be hidden in it. I hope that the Committee stage will provide scope for further examination of the details relating to the database. I am thinking particularly of the retention of children’s DNA. In its briefing, Liberty expressed concern about the fact that a child who was caught shoplifting at the age of 10 and again at the age of 12 would remain on the database for the rest of his or her life. If Liberty’s understanding is correct, that makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I am pleased that children will no longer be fingerprinted in schools. I am astonished that schools have never been required to seek permission for that from parents. As for the regulation of surveillance and CCTV, my experience is similar to that of the right hon. Member for Blackburn and others who have spoken today. The most frequent request that I have received as a Member of Parliament has been for additional CCTV systems, but many people have approached me expressing concern about, for instance, the fact that CCTV cameras were pointing straight through their front windows, or their bedroom windows, from premises opposite. I believe that better regulation could solve the problems that have been reported to me, and I therefore welcome the proposals in the Bill.

[Jim Shannon]

In my experience, when CCTV has been introduced in what might be described as hot spots where there is plenty of antisocial behaviour such as violence and robbery, there has been a marked reduction in the number of such incidents. Does the hon. Gentleman share that experience?

[Tom Brake]

I certainly think that CCTV deals partly with the fear of crime. However, I know from the results of an inquiry conducted by the Home Affairs Committee that its effectiveness in cutting crime is not so clear-cut. It obviously makes a difference in, for instance, car parks, but it is less obvious whether it makes a difference on a wider scale. The evidence may not be as strong as Members wish it to be.

I am pleased that we are considering the issue of automatic number plate recognition systems. I have raised with Ministers in the past the extent to which bailiffs and private contractors can use such systems, and have suggested that more regulation might be necessary. In Committee, we will doubtless wish to clarify the relationship between the Information Commissioner and the surveillance camera commissioner to ensure that there will be no overlap between them. The regulation that is being discussed at present clearly relates to CCTV in the public sector, involving local authorities and police, but that constitutes a relatively small proportion of the CCTV that is available. We may have to consider whether the boundaries specified in the Bill should be extended.

An issue that is closely related to the issues of CCTV and ANPR systems is that of the use of identification systems in pubs and clubs. Like, I suspect, a number of Members, I took up an offer a couple of weeks ago during special constables week, when we were encouraged to go out with our local special constables to observe their valuable and committed work. On Friday night I spent some time in Sutton high street, visiting pubs and clubs virtually all of which were using systems that captured people’s ID—typically, their driving licences. I know that there is significant concern among the police about the extent to which any of those systems comply with the relevant data protection legislation by ensuring that the data that they capture are secure and are handled in an appropriate manner. I realise that that may be beyond the scope of the Bill, but I think that the Government could usefully consider it.

As for counter-terrorism, Members will know from what I said earlier about stop-and-search powers that I am pleased that they will be much more tightly defined. I also welcome the reduction in the maximum period for pre-charge detention from 28 days to 14, although organisations such as the Law Society and Liberty want to push us much further and faster in that regard. I consider 14 days to be a good starting point, but I am happy to leave open the option of introducing a shorter period.

In relation to terrorism prevention and investigation measures, which are being dealt with separately to some extent, let me say as an aside that I hope we will be given more clarification of precisely what is being proposed. I do not want control orders to be replaced by something that looks very much like them. I should also like clarification of what will replace curfews, and I want to know that what we propose as a Government is a system that will focus on securing prosecutions rather than simply containing people.

On safeguarding vulnerable groups and criminal records, I welcome the fact that the vetting and barring scheme will be changed, and that 9 million people will be taken out of the scheme. Simply classifying and categorising people does not guarantee safety, and creating massive databases does not necessarily provide a solution to all the security and safety problems. We have to be more subtle and sophisticated than that.

I welcome the changes on consensual gay sex, and I am sure the Minister is aware of the concerns that, as far as possible, every single record that relates to that previously illegal activity should be deleted. I know there are challenges in terms of how to go beyond cleaning electronic data, but I hope that that can be dealt with comprehensively.

The freedom of information changes are very welcome, although not all aspects of the freedom of information ten-minute rule Bill that I have pressed on two separate occasions in the last three or four years will be picked up. I hope they will be, perhaps in the protection of freedoms (No. 2) Bill, when we get round to that in, I hope, the second half of this Parliament. I do not see any reason why very large private sector organisations that are, in effect, doing public sector work should not be subject to FOI in the same way as the public sector. If they are simply taking on what was previously done by the public sector, to which FOI legislation would have applied, it would be appropriate for it to apply to private sector organisations now doing that work.

I welcome the fact that we will preserve trial by jury and that we are restoring such rights.

In the past couple of weeks, we have watched with astonishment the courage, bravery and thirst for freedom of the Tunisians, Egyptians and Libyans, who have been desperate to embed some of the most basic freedoms in their societies. We have a more straightforward task. We have started the process of restoring some of our most cherished rights in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, and will, I hope, continue that process in the protection of freedoms (No. 2) Bill, which I hope will be introduced in the second half of this Parliament, and which I would expect to pick up on some of the issues raised—such as what the hon. Member for Gainsborough said about free speech, so that the concerns of Dr Evan Harris about removing the word “insulting” can be addressed.

We must maintain the momentum. With freedoms, we can never afford to stand still; we are always swimming against the current. This Bill demonstrates that the coalition is starting to reverse the tide, and that an unprecedentedly great rolling back of the state is under way.

Higher Education (Student Visas)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bacon]

I was particularly interested to hear Sir Andrew Green of Migrationwatch UK, who I have always thought is a very articulate spokesman on these matters, say that he was interested in bogus students, bogus applicants, bogus colleges and genuine students who overstayed, because those categories contribute to net migration, but that he would welcome more genuine overseas students, as he thinks that is good for the country and the economy.

My fear is that genuine overseas students have been caught up in all this, so let me say how pleased I am that the Government have taken steps to deal with bogus colleges. The Select Committee on Home Affairs produced a useful report on that issue in 2009 and I gather from the Minister’s evidence to the Committee today that some 58 colleges have had their status revoked and the Government have taken compliance action against a further 235, which may lead to suspension or revocation of status. I applaud those excellent and worthwhile moves. Nobody has a stronger interest in seeing bogus colleges put out of business than legitimate providers. I should add that the Committee’s previous recommendation to restrict by law the use of the word “college” is a good one that Ministers should take seriously.

There is no place for bogus colleges or bogus applicants; nor is there any place for genuine applicants who overstay. We should have clear rules that everyone understands and that are enforced. If we deal with the bogus colleges, the cheats, the bogus applicants and those who fiddle the system, a great deal of the heat—the political problem about immigration—goes away. At that point, we face chiefly not a political problem, but a much more entrenched and difficult economic problem. We are all living through the consequences of the worst financial crash for a century or more. We know that this will be very painful and that severe belt-tightening will take place, and we have seen the Government make a start on that. We all know that any Government would have had to do the same. We know that we have to rebalance the economy away from its heavy dependence on financial services and have much healthier growth in other sectors.

We know that in Norfolk as well as anywhere does in the UK, because Norfolk is poised for significant growth in other areas of the economy, particularly once we get the dualling of the A11 completed, which I am pleased the Government have agreed. Norfolk is poised to help that rebalancing and not only through tourism, agriculture and high value-added food production, in which East Anglia has excelled, because there is a broader potential for growth. For example, Norwich is home to a cluster of internationally renowned research organisations in health and life sciences.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that for a great many universities across the United Kingdom—particularly Queen’s university in Belfast—students on visas are very important to research and development and to contact with companies? That potential needs to be realised. Does he feel that the coalition Government can make changes to ensure that the students who have the right to be in this country can make a contribution to universities and, thus, secure development?

[Mr Bacon]

I certainly hope so. I hope that the Government understand, if they had not already, that two in five PhDs undertaken in this country are undertaken by overseas students. Damage that and we damage the research base of this country.

More than 2,500 scientists are working at the John Innes centre near Norwich, the Institute of Food Research, the Sainsbury Laboratory, the Genome Analysis Centre and the university of East Anglia cluster, which together form the Norwich research park. That is the largest concentration of food and plant scientists in Europe. The IFR was recently ranked in the top two of 36,000 worldwide research organisations for the influence and citation of its research.

UEA also has a growing medical school and a renowned school of environmental studies. Other growing sectors include offshore and other renewable energy, including tidal, biomass and biofuel energy production. In advanced engineering the area has more than 1,000 engineering companies, employing a skilled work force of about 10,000 people, which trade around the world with the likes of Boeing, Airbus, NASA and Toyota. Group Lotus, which is based in my constituency, is developing the next generation of high-performance cars using renewable energies, as well as being the catalyst for a large cluster of advanced automotive engineering businesses along the A11 corridor. Almost every Formula 1 team is supported by engineers based in Norfolk or is using engineering invented in the county.

Alcohol (Minimum Pricing)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Nick Smith]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point.

It is not surprising that the former chief medical officer, Sir Liam Donaldson, has called for a 50p minimum price per unit, as it is estimated that it could save 3,300 lives a year. Does not a proposal from such an eminent source, with a distinguished record of public service, merit serious consideration?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, along with the clear need to increase the price of alcohol, we need an education strategy from the Department of Health, perhaps to shock people into realising what would happen to them? Many who imbibe unfortunately end up with liver polyps at an early age. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, along with the need for an education strategy from the Department of Health, we need a concerted campaign from the supermarkets?

[Nick Smith]

It is important that there be greater public awareness of the dangers of drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

As yet, no legislative plans have been put before Parliament to implement the Government’s half-measure to end below-cost selling. None is included in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill that is currently in Committee. Will the Minister tell us how the Government intend to introduce their proposal? Will we have legislation now, or action in the Budget? Some more details would be helpful. Moreover, the Minister has said that the Government will consider the rate of duty on super-strength lagers, but how long will that take?

In opposition, the Conservatives promised to call time on drinks that fuel antisocial behaviour. The Government know that there is a clear link between the price of alcohol and the harms associated with alcohol, but they are too timid to tackle the matter. They are concerned that everyone will be penalised if realistic minimum pricing is introduced. As I said earlier, that argument does not hold water.

Controlling Migration

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Home Secretary has suggested that there might be some concessions for those involved in the fishing industry. By and large, I welcome the proposals put forward today, but she has mentioned a concession of a year until September 2011 in regard to work permits for Filipino fisherman. Would she be prepared to consider extending that arrangement for another year, given that the fishing industry feels that it cannot do without it?

[Mrs May]

I think that we will have to look at that matter again closer to the September 2011 deadline. I simply say to the hon. Gentleman that the more exceptions to the rules that people claim, the less effective the overall rules will be. We are absolutely clear that, within the rules that we have set, there are groups of very specialist workers. A number of issues have been raised with me about people with very particular skills who are needed by certain industries, and who we believe can come in, within the routes that we are setting out.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Huppert]

I find it disappointing that the hon. Gentleman takes that line. We are not alone in facing the threat of terrorism. Other countries have faced it and had issues to deal with, and they have done that in much better ways.

We have alternatives, and other countries clearly manage. We have the threshold test, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) referred. It states that, when there is not enough information, it is possible to proceed with a charge if there are reasonable grounds to think that we will get more evidence, the case is serious and there are grounds to object to bail.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Huppert]

I ought to save time.

If that is not the case, then we should not be holding people for 28 days anyway. How can we defend a month?

We also have the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which gives powers in extremis, and I know that the Home Secretary and other hon. Members are aware of that.

We do face a serious situation, and we do need to have the right tools to combat terrorism, but 28-day detention without trial is not the right one. It causes too much collateral damage in its effect on our civil liberties and the message that we send to others who might be considering such issues and those who look up to us from other countries. I urge hon. Members to reject 28 days.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who is the newest member of the Home Affairs Committee. I can recall that of the Committee’s 38 reports, 37 were unanimous; the discussion and inquiry that we held on pre-charge detention was the only one on which the Committee divided.

We have had some very odd couplings, if I may put it like that, today. We had the Front Benchers—the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary—agreeing, and then we had the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) agreeing. I thought for a moment that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) was going to vote against the order until the last few seconds, when he gave the Home Secretary the benefit of the doubt.

This is a very important debate. Of course, the mood is different from that of the last debate, although there is a huge amount of passion. I came into this Chamber with a determination to vote for the order, but I am going to vote against it because I do not think the case has been made. I have been swayed—I know that this is very unusual for a Member of this House—by the speeches that I have heard. I am impressed by the integrity of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North, who has campaigned long and hard on this issue, and by the fact that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden resigned and fought a by-election on it. I also remember the speech made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) during the last debate, which was pretty passionate. That is not to dismiss anything that we have heard from others who obviously make very important points.

[Jim Shannon]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need 28 days for two reasons: for the ongoing verbal investigations and for the forensic part of the evidence? It is not like the “CSI” programmes on TV. A person is not convicted in 60 minutes—28 days are needed to do that. It helps to remove the more volatile members of the community and to ensure that innocent people are protected.

[Keith Vaz]

I understand that; it is exactly the point that Ian Blair, now Lord Blair, made to the Select Committee. However, as we have heard today from the Home Secretary, this power has not been used very often. I am sure that she was in the Chamber when the Attorney-General spoke on the issue—it was one of the best speeches that I have ever heard here—and opposed what the last Government were going to do. To be perfectly frank, if one has a power that one does not use, why have it?

It is important to consider who supported the longer detention period. Only the police came before the Committee and said that they supported it. Ken Macdonald—now Lord Macdonald—who is conducting the review had no reservations when he was Director of Public Prosecutions, but had reservations after he ceased to be DPP. He brought those reservations—