Cost of Living

Debate between Jim Shannon and Malcolm Wicks

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Malcolm Wicks]

A very senior Liberal Democrat Member says that nuclear will not happen, while the Liberal Democrat Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change says that it will. I suspect that there may well be more rows in that party in the weeks and months to come—for other reasons, too—but an interesting divide has been opened up.

Let me move on from nuclear energy to the nuclear family—and other families, too—as the main focus of my speech today. I start with the proposition that although we are all currently concerned with how to develop a strong economy in really difficult times of economic austerity, equally important for the well-being of our society—I do not think I exaggerate—is what we might call the strong family. Whether families are based on marriage or cohabitation or whether they be two or one-parent families, it is important that they are strong, but many families are struggling and need our support.

Many issues that we debate in this Chamber—education, for example—depend as much on what I call strong families and strong parenting as on other measures the state can provide, such as support for schools and colleges, Sure Start and so forth. I have always taken the view that parents are as important as teachers for education and that families are as important as schools. Many do very well.

How family life has changed in this country is an issue we need to understand, as the family of today is not the family of 1945, and social policy needs to follow the grain of understanding these changes to family life. Not so long ago, a child left school at 14, 15 or 16 and became an economic asset to the family. Now, of course, as some of us know to our cost, our children are financially dependent on us often right into their early to mid-20s—and for good reasons, because of the development of higher education and the need for children to equip themselves for a more sophisticated society.

The strong family, then, is an important theme, and I want to touch on two policy consequences flowing from it. The first is child care and the related issue of parental leave, which is a welcome feature of the Queen’s Speech. We await the detail of the Government’s proposals on parental leave and we will need to scrutinise them. The importance of these issues relates to my theme of family change. Gone are the days when it was assumed that the father would go out to work full time and the mother would stay at home to look after the children—often, in the past, quite a number of children. The fact that those days have gone is very welcome—as is the water brought over to me by my ever-so-kind Whip. I do not want to get away from the idea that the Labour Whips are tough and fearless and nasty, but they can be kind too.

As I said, those days have gone, and the rise of what many people call the dual-worker family—the rise of women and mothers in employment—has come about for good reasons. It reflects a growing equality in our society, and the high educational achievements of our girls and young women. It also reflects the fact that people are now demanding a higher living standard than was experienced by their mothers and grandmothers. In a high-cost society, two incomes are more desirable than one.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Malcolm Wicks]

May I pursue my theme for a while? The hon. Gentleman must remind me later that I was going to give way to him.

This is not a painless revolution. I do not want to compete with the Secretary of State’s soundbite, but for many women and men there is what might be called a care-career collision.

[Malcolm Wicks]

The alliteration is better.

What I mean is that the time when young men and women in their mid-to-late twenties and thirties are working hard at their careers, and when their employers are watching them, is precisely the time when they think about the need to have children. That is a dilemma and a difficulty that we have not entirely thought through.

One consequence of the fact that women as well as men are working hard during their period of maximum fertility is the inability of many women to have families of the size that they would like. There is interesting evidence to that effect in a 2006 study by the Eurobarometer, the most recent that the Library could find for me. It states that in the UK in 2006 the mean ideal number of children for women—as it is an average, a funny statistic emerges—was 2.5, but the actual number of children achieved by women aged between 40 and 54 was only 1.9. As I have said, it is possible to laugh at such statistics, but we can see what lies behind them. Many women, and men, who would have preferred to have, say, three children end up with two, many who might have wanted two end up with one, and others may not be able to have children at all.

I am not suggesting that there is some Utopia in which everyone can achieve their ideal family size, but I do believe that there are economic and employment pressures that make achieving an ideal family size difficult in Britain and, indeed, throughout Europe. That ought to concern us, not least at a time when data show that birth rates are below replacement level in this country.

Another consequence of the care-career collision is the sheer hassle and difficulty that many families have to undergo in order to organise substitute child care. The growth of child care is wholly beneficial—it has improved the lot of families and, in many cases, children—but whenever I discuss the issue with younger families today, I have the impression that there is barrier after barrier. Often it is not just one substitute child carer whom parents need to employ. Because of career patterns, children may have to be dragged out of bed early and sent from one carer to another. What happens when a childminder is ill? What happens when the mother herself, who should be working, knows that her child is ill? Many parents have to resort to fibbing to their employers that they themselves are ill, rather than their children.

What I am saying—not too controversially, I hope—is that I do not believe the development of child care has led to some kind of nirvana. People may say, “It would be better if we had more child care, if the training and the quality of child care were better, and if it were cheaper”, and I understand their argument, but I want to challenge more fundamentally the proposition that we have reached a nirvana. I believe that family decisions made by men and women, by dads and mums, would be better decisions for families and for children if parental leave became a much more important feature of our employment and social policy. We have made some progress and I welcome that, but the average citizen of the 21st century will live until her eighties or nineties, and we are threatened with the possibility that many children born today will reach the age of 100. That is a long life span. Are we really saying that, during the two or three critical years after a child is born, substitute child care is the only way of ensuring the well-being of our children and their parents?

Now I will give way to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), as I promised to do a long time ago.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, and congratulate him on a speech that we are all finding very thought-provoking and stimulating. One aspect of child care that he has touched on but not dwelt on is the role of the grandfather and grandmother. Has the possibility occurred to him, as it has to some people, that the increase in pension age will mean that they cannot provide families with the free child care that grandparents have provided in the past? Might that not also be a critical factor?

[Malcolm Wicks]

It could well be a factor. Certainly I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s main point that, although we often talk about the childminder or the nursery or the crèche, as I have been doing today, the role of the extended family—granny and granddad—can be vital.

To support my case that we need to take parental leave far more seriously, let me cite a recent, or fairly recent, pamphlet published in 2008 and written by a number of people, including Catherine Hakim. The publisher was Policy Exchange. Politically I am widely read, or rather the Library has briefed me widely. Catherine Hakim and her colleagues produced some interesting data. When parents were asked what, ideally, they would like, they did not all say “More child care, more child care”. Many simply wanted to spend more time with their own children when they were tiny. According to the report,

“Overall, a two-thirds majority of working mothers of pre-school and school-age children would prefer to work fewer hours or not at all, even if better childcare were available. Given the choice, what mothers prefer is to be at home with their children, not more and better childcare”.

That is an interesting finding, but I would qualify it by saying that we must not turn this into a debate about how mothers should be at home, as we are in danger of doing. Many mothers have educational qualifications that are superior to those of their partners, and careers that are blossoming. The debate about parental leave is not just about mums, but about dads as well. Too often in family and social policy, we talk about families as if they were just women and children and do not talk enough about fathers.

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Jim Shannon and Malcolm Wicks

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Malcolm Wicks]

I am bound to say that life expectancy is not 87. On average, a girl born in the UK will live to 82 and a boy to 77. Obviously, however, once they have survived to the age of 65 many people are likely to live into their 80s, so I understand the broad point being made.

I shall conclude later by talking about a sensitivity that we could introduce into the system that might meet some of those problems, although the Minister has so far resisted it. However, now I want to refer to the association between social class and location, which various colleagues are interested in and knowledgeable about. This is not just about the broad difference between living in Kensington and living in parts of Glasgow; even within many of our big cities there are huge class differences in mortality. Across Sheffield, for example, there is a difference in life expectancy of more than 14 years between different parts of the city, and even in Kensington and Chelsea—the borough with the highest life expectancy—there is a difference of eight years between the most and the least deprived wards—which, for those of us who know Kensington, is not so surprising. Those differences and unfairnesses are reflected in terms of where people live in our cities.

Before I mention the idea that I have been trying to persuade the Minister to accept, I want to apply some pressure elsewhere: where will the jobs come from? We are living through a period of rising unemployment, and many people, including graduates with good degrees, in their 20s, 30s and 40s, cannot get jobs. Are we confident that if we make these accelerated changes—as the Minister knows, the acceleration is the difference between what the Labour Government did and what the coalition Government are doing—the work will be available?

Now 39% of 62-year-old men and 52% of 64-year-old men are not working, which means that huge proportions of men approaching what is meant to be their retirement are effectively retired from the labour market already. Furthermore, 36% of 58-year-old women are not working. I fear that we will be extending a kind of benefit twilight zone, in which people who are ineligible for their state pension—because we are raising the pension age—will jog along on incapacity or other benefits, with no one in the jobcentre pretending that those folks will get work—even the Minister will not be able to pretend that they will—and a huge army of people living in a state of desperation in that twilight zone.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will share our concerns about last week’s unemployment figures, which showed an increase among young people and women. Is there not a concern that unemployment levels for women are rising, and does that concern not need to be expressed tonight in the House?

[Malcolm Wicks]

That is the concern. Ironically, we are having this debate while the spectre of mass unemployment—as Liberals will remember, William Beveridge called it the giant evil of idleness—rears its ugly head, yet we are accelerating the increase in the age at which people will get their retirement pension.