Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Michael Tomlinson

Consideration of Lords message
Monday 22nd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Michael Tomlinson]

I certainly will. I am very grateful indeed to the hon. and learned Lady, because she gets to the point of the amendments. She is absolutely right to say that we should address them in detail, and I will do just that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I say this with all humility and with respect for the Minister, who I know is an honourable person: does he agree that there is a simple way out of this deadlock? It is to accept those who can demonstrate that they assisted the British forces in Afghanistan. Does the Minister further agree that this back and forth is an example not of democratic exercise, but of democratic embarrassment? A way forward must be found before we bring this place and our procedures into disrepute.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I am very grateful indeed to the hon. Gentleman. As always, he engages with the substance of the matter. He and the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) have raised this point. I will turn to that specific amendment, and I hope to persuade him, through my words, that steps have been taken and reassurances have been made. I hope to reassure him personally that he will be able to support the Government in the Aye Lobby later today.

I turn to the Lords amendment tabled by the noble Lord Hope of Craighead. I want to reiterate some salient points. First, as the House knows, we will only ratify the treaty once we agree with Rwanda that all necessary implementation is in place for both countries to comply with the obligations under the treaty. Secondly, the implementation of these provisions will be kept under review by the independent monitoring committee. Thirdly, clause 9 makes it clear that the Bill’s provisions come into force when the treaty enters into force.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Michael Tomlinson

Consideration of Lords message
Wednesday 17th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Michael Tomlinson]

I will address that amendment in a few minutes, but there already is an independent body: the monitoring committee is part of the treaty. I am not speaking to that amendment at the moment, but I hope to allay some of the hon. Lady’s concerns in a few minutes’ time and then to see her in the voting Lobby.

Having considered the lengthy and extensive exchanges throughout the Bill’s passage, the Government now invite Parliament to agree with our assessment that the Supreme Court’s concerns have indeed been properly addressed and to enact the Bill accordingly.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

My party will support the Government, with the exception of one amendment. I have previously asked the Minister about freedom of religion or belief. We have that freedom in the United Kingdom, but some disquiet has been expressed to me, as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief, about that freedom in Rwanda. People have repeatedly asked me this question, which I sincerely and graciously ask the Minister to answer. Is there the same freedom of religion or belief in Rwanda as we have in the United Kingdom?

[Michael Tomlinson]

I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman that any two countries’ systems are the same. As I have previously said, those freedoms are in Rwanda’s constitution. He has previously asked me that question, and I have read out the precise wording. I endeavour to do so again before the end of this debate.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Michael Tomlinson

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 18th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Michael Tomlinson]

I am concerned with this Government and this Parliament. As for our obligations, nothing in the Bill requires any act or omission that conflicts with our international obligations. In fact, this Bill is based on compliance by both Rwanda and the United Kingdom with international law in the form of a treaty that recognises and reflects the international legal obligations of both the United Kingdom and Rwanda.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

At least the Minister responds to our questions and tries to address the issues. The last time I asked a question on this matter, he tried to answer it, but the fact is that because of Northern Ireland’s border with the Republic of Ireland, it has special circumstances. We were reassured then about Northern Ireland’s circumstances; the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) referred to the Good Friday agreement, which is one example, but there is also the matter before us. Can the Minister confirm that the concerns that the Democratic Unionist party put forward in our last debate on this issue have been taken on board? We do not see that from the legislation before us tonight, and if we do not see that, it will be hard for us to support the Government.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I do recall our earlier exchange across the Chamber, and the hon. Gentleman may know of my exchange with his hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and the subsequent correspondence. The Government continue to believe that there is no incompatibility between the Bill and article 2 of the Windsor framework. I know the hon. Gentleman has been concerned about that, but I hope he was reassured by some of the details set out in the letter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Tomlinson]

On deterrence, which I think was the thrust of the question, the Albania scheme brought into effect by the Prime Minister back in December 2022 proves the deterrent effect. Crossings on small boats by those from Albania were down 90% as a result of that agreement. That shows the deterrent effect.

Lords amendment 6 completely undermines the purpose of the Bill. It is unnecessary because the Bill already contains appropriate safeguards to allow decision makers and the courts to consider claims of an individual person in particular circumstances, if there is compelling evidence.

[Jim Shannon]

The House will know that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief. The people who go through the system and go to Rwanda need to have their religious beliefs protected, whether they be Christians, or belong to other religions or no religion. My concern is that when they get to Rwanda, that protection may not be as strong as that which they have here. Can the Minister give some assurance that people’s religious beliefs will have the same protections?

[Michael Tomlinson]

I know how seriously the hon. Gentleman takes this important issue. There is a policy of non-discrimination in the Rwandan constitution, which will provide some reassurance. The monitoring committee is also there on a daily basis. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. We have made it clear that we cannot continue to allow relocations to Rwanda to be frustrated and delayed as a result of systemic challenges on general safety.

On amendment 7, we need a strong deterrent to stop people putting their lives at risk by crossing the channel. While creating that deterrent, it is important that the Government take decisive action also to deter adults from claiming to be children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their comments. This is no doubt a contentious issue on which we all have opinions, but ensuring safety for all is everyone’s main priority. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) set out the position of the Democratic Unionist party.

I want to make three points in the next five minutes. The first relates to Lords amendment 10 and those who helped us in Afghanistan. In February 2022 I met an Afghan national who served alongside one of my constituents in an Army role. I do not want to go into any more detail about that, other than to say that that man and his four children are under threat in Pakistan. I have done everything in my power as an MP, along with other MPs, to try to get him home. We have got him a house and job. The hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) said that all they are getting is a place, but we have got him a house and a job in a company in Newtownards. We will get his children integrated into school, because we have done that already with Syrian refugees. We took them in, and they are established and do not want to leave. My first question to the Minister about ensuring that we can do that.

Secondly, I refer back to my earlier intervention about the Northern Ireland court ruling. A legal decision has been taken in Belfast, and the Minister clearly responded that it will be challenged. I wish the Minister well on that challenge, and I hope that the ruling can be overturned. If it is, Northern Ireland will be the same as every other part of the United Kingdom. If not, we are clearly different. I hope the Minister will come back to me on that.

Thirdly, I said earlier that I am the chair of the APPG for international freedom of religion or belief, which is an important issue for me and for many MPs in this House, and some Members of the House of Lords. We have 174 members—MPs and peers—which indicates the importance of the issue. Ensuring that religion is respected is so important to me and others. I am going to speak to some of the Lords amendments, as everyone has done in their own way. Clause 2 would require decision makers conclusively to treat Rwanda as a safe country. If that presumption is made, it is crucial that the same presumption applies to how members of certain communities will be treated once there. We can have all the freedom of religious belief in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but if they do not have it in Rwanda, the whole object of the exercise has been defeated. I seek that assurance.

Lords amendment 6 would further allow decision-makers to determine whether Rwanda can be deemed a safe country for certain individuals or groups of similar persons. I am pleased that this protection has been addressed, because it could protect certain groups of people of a particular religion, to ensure their safety. The only concern is that if there is more scope for granting injunctions that delay removals, we could see ourselves in a similar position of a long list of delayed Home Office decisions that could take months to be concluded.

I am pleased that protections are being considered for victims of slavery or human trafficking. Given that victims are brought to the UK involuntarily, their circumstances should be assessed differently to ensure their safety. Under-18s may not have a parent with them, so special provisions must be in place. In the short time that the Minister has, I ask him to ensure that protection is given to them so that they are not taken advantage of—that is critical.

It is always important to debates these issues thoroughly, as they have been by Members on all sides of the Chamber, with slightly different opinions. Other people’s lives are in our hands, and these issues are paramount. There is no doubt that we have a problem with illegal migration in this country, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim said. No one in the Chamber, from whatever party, can ignore that issue, but there are exceptional circumstances for some people, and consideration must be given to them. No matter where they are being deported to, it must be a safe place for those with specific religious beliefs. They must be protected. If we can protect them and their freedoms, human rights and religious beliefs wherever they may be, that will be a step in the right direction for me, as the chair of the APPG for international freedom of religion or belief. More importantly, it will be a step in the right direction for those people who are making the choice to go to another country.

[Michael Tomlinson]

May I start by thanking every single right hon. and hon. Member who has contributed during the course of this debate? It has been detailed, thorough and constructive, and I am grateful to each and every one who has contributed. I shall start in reverse order with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is so often left until the end. It was delightful to see him without a time limit on the clock at least. I will come back to his point on amendment 10 at the end, as a number of hon. Members have mentioned it. On the question of under-18s, article 3.4 of the agreement does not cover unaccompanied children. I know that he will be partially reassured by that.

On his important comments on religion and faith, I point him to articles 11 and 16 of the constitution of Rwanda. I know that he will look at them, and I hope he will find reassurance there.

Turning to the penultimate speaker, the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady), to whom I always listen carefully, he has renewed his invitation and I accept once again. I confirm that I look forward to my visit with him to Glasgow.

Going back to the beginning of the debate, perhaps one of the most instructive parts was the exchange between the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), and my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster). It contained the foreshadowing of a comment made time and again by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who is in his place and who repeatedly makes the point that it is incumbent upon anyone who disagrees with this policy to come up with their own solution to the problem of how we should deal with people who enter the country with no legitimate, credible case for claiming asylum and being granted safe haven but who cannot be returned to their home country. That point was made powerfully today by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay, but once again, answer came there none.

I agree with the opening remarks of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Sir Jeremy Wright) and with hopefully more than just the first half of his speech, but certainly the first half of it. He characterised this debate, this Bill and this issue incredibly well and I encourage Members to turn to his speech. I agree with his assessment of amendments 2 and 3. He is right to say that they would transfer authority on to the monitoring committee rather than on to Parliament, which is the right place for it to be. He tempted me to delve further into issues that he rightly acknowledged are not strictly part of this debate—at least not today—but I will consider them carefully, as he knows. I am grateful to him for his contributions.

On the last occasion that the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and I exchanged views on this Bill, I undermined her credentials by not disagreeing with each and every one of her submissions. I will start to make amends today and pick her up on two issues. On the emergency transit mechanism, it is a treaty—it is an agreement that has been signed by the African Union, the UNHCR and the Government of Rwanda. It is important. It is supported and backed by the EU to the tune of €22 million and has been warmly welcomed by the EU ambassador with words that I do not have time to repeat now, but I read them out at the outset of the debate. I agree with the hon. Lady when she said that the amendments were designed to undermine the purpose of the Bill. She was very plain and open about that, in stark contrast to those on the Labour Benches.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) also made that point powerfully, as did the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). They confirmed that these are wrecking amendments. If anyone wants to put a stop to the Bill, they should support these amendments. My hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Sir William Cash) and for Rother Valley talked about sovereignty of Parliament. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone talked about clear and unambiguous language and cited the famous paragraph 144 of the Supreme Court judgment. He also cited Lord Hoffmann. I agree with him when he speaks about the strengths of our unwritten constitution.

Can I gently push back on something that the Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), said? My hon. Friends the Members for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and for Rother Valley tackled the deterrent effect powerfully at the outset. The deterrent effect is there. Albania has already shown that: numbers have dropped by over 90%. Can I also gently push back with her on scrutiny and respectfully point out once again that both myself and the Minister for Legal Migration and the Border, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), were in front of her Committee within hours of being appointed? Indeed, so much did my hon. Friend enjoy that experience that he was back in front of her Committee again last week. Having read the transcripts and seen the reports of it, I know that it was a constructive and instructive exchange between the Committee and the Minister, and rightly so. We had the debate last week and we have had the debate again today: scrutiny, scrutiny, scrutiny—something I very much welcome and that I know my hon. Friend the Member for Corby welcomes, having appeared twice before the Committee in quick succession.

The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) spoke about her visit to Rwanda. May I gently say that I disagree fundamentally with her assessment? I suggest that the evidence needs to be looked at in the round. It is a powerful thing that evidence has been put forward that represents the spectrum of views, but it needs to be looked at in the round. In relation to Rwanda, I disagree with her because we on this side are confident in the Government of Rwanda’s commitment to implement this partnership. We are clear that Rwanda is a safe country.

There were some instructive and powerful interventions on this from my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Jill Mortimer). I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) for her speech, having just been to Rwanda, and for giving her powerful assessment of where we are.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who talked about the monitoring committee. What she said was absolutely right, and not just because one member of that committee is a former Solicitor General. It is an important institution. Paragraph 101 of the policy statement sets out more detail on that. My right hon. Friend is the author and architect of this and therefore speaks with great authority. I am grateful to her for reminding the House about this. I also have time to mention the economic partnership, which she mentioned last Thursday as well. That is something we should not forget, and it was mentioned on Second Reading.

I am very grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Sir Michael Ellis) for his intervention. He spoke about the essence of democracy: the law is our servant. I heard a “Hear, hear” from another former Solicitor General at the back of the Chamber at that point, and he was right to say so. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, this Bill is the constitutionally appropriate response to the Supreme Court judgment—respectful, listening and responding to the concerns contained therein.

The monitoring committee is the one thing that I would mention to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland). I would gently point out to him, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham did, that the right checks and balances are in place. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon spoke about amendments 2 and 3, saying that they would transfer authority from Parliament to the monitoring committee, and he is right.

In response to the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), I only have time to repeat that the Bill applies across the entirety of the United Kingdom, but I am grateful to him for his intervention.

On amendment 10, I repeat that the Government recognise the commitment and the responsibility that come with combat veterans, whether our own or those who have shown courage by serving alongside us. We will not let them down.

These amendments either seek to undermine the primary purpose of the Bill or are simply unnecessary, as they do not support the purpose of the legislation.

Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Michael Tomlinson

Thursday 25th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his hard work on behalf of his constituents. It is right to say that tackling serious violence and improving the support we offer to victims is a priority for this Government. That is shown not least through the Victims and Prisoners Bill and the revised victims code. I would be happy to meet him to discuss that further.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Solicitor General very much for his responses to those questions. Northern Ireland has seen more than its share of violent crime, but in relation to the knife crime that both questions referred to, Northern Ireland has also seen an increase in the number of knife murders, attempted murders and people carrying knives or other sharp instruments. I know he is a very dutiful Minister, so what opportunity has he had to discuss those matters with the pertinent Minister for Northern Ireland, to ensure that we also see some benefit from those measures?

[The Solicitor General]

May I return the hon. Gentleman’s compliment and pay tribute to him for his diligence in this House and for all that he does? In fact, the Attorney General has had very close links with Northern Ireland recently, and both she and I, with the Advocate General for Scotland, had the privilege of being called to the Bar in Northern Ireland. I am determined to keep those conversations and channels open, and the hon. Gentleman will know that the Home Office is consulting now on knife crime, with a closing date of 6 June.