Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I do not think I can give that hard guarantee to the hon. Lady. I know exactly why she is pressing me for it, and I have huge sympathy with what she is saying—and I know sympathy does not cut it—but she will know that parliamentary time is now extremely limited. It may well be, as I think Lord Ashton has indicated in the Lords today, that there is not time for the Bill to pass through both Houses. However, the hon. Lady certainly has my assurance—and I believe I speak on behalf of the Secretary of State; the hon. Lady knows how passionately he feels about this—that this will be tested very hard by us.

The hon. Lady will also know, given the importance and the sensitivity of the Bill, that we must obviously make sure it is properly considered so that victims of institutional abuse in Northern Ireland get the redress they deserve as quickly as possible. That is not a light consideration; it does require some proper scrutiny. I do not think anyone in the House is happy either that we are in the situation we are in with this Bill or about the absence of the HIA Bill, but we are where we are with the parliamentary time being extremely limited.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister just clarify this for us if he can? If the HIA legislation is not brought forward and this Parliament finishes on Tuesday, as it probably will, does that mean all that legislation falls, and are we just to start again next time around? If so, that is appalling.

[Mr Hurd]

I agree that it would be extremely regrettable, but if that is the situation, it is for the new Government, of whatever colour, to establish their priorities. What I can say, having spoken to the Secretary of State about it, is that we have a deep commitment to doing this. It is a priority for all the reasons that we have stated. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) talked about a moral responsibility, and of course she is absolutely right.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 6

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I understand the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making. I can assure him that, as we work towards the regulations and consult on their detail, the guiding principle—fundamental to the Government, and which we believe is the basis of consensus on which to proceed—is that we see this as a pension that is not designed for terrorists or those injured at their own hand. We will have to work through the detail of how it works and the burden of proof in those situations, but I am clear—as I am sure he is, because I have heard him speak passionately on this subject before—that I do not believe there is consensus in this place to move forward without that guiding principle. I do not think that this Parliament, under any Government, would seriously propose making payments to terrorists or those injured by their own actions. That principle needs to guide us as we get into the detail.

We are clear that what we are considering is a payment in recognition of the suffering of those severely injured through no fault of their own. The victims’ pension is the right thing to do, and I genuinely congratulate those, such as the WAVE Trauma Centre, who have made the case with such tenacity and resilience over the years. Like many Ministers and shadow Ministers before me—Conservative and Labour—I have listened to and been deeply moved by the stories of those whose lives have been profoundly affected by the terrorist atrocities of the troubles. When we read the stories of people such as Paul Gallagher, Jennifer McNern or Peter Heathwood, it is frankly impossible not to be moved by their courage and resilience. The reality is that there has been widespread criticism of compensation schemes in the past. Many of those who would benefit from the payments feel that they were not treated well or supported in the right way, and it is surely time that we do more to support those individuals.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On 10 December 1971, Daniel McCormick, a part-time soldier in the Ulster Defence Regiment, was murdered. His wife and three children got compensation of £3,500. Will the Minister give a commitment that that matter will be sorted for that family?

[Mr Hurd]

I can give the hon. Gentleman a commitment that the Government absolutely accept the case for victims’ pensions and payments and recognise, as I just said, that we need to do more to support individuals and families affected in that way. We are determined, as I hope I will persuade him, to move forward, not just through the sense of moral obligation that we feel, but because this Parliament now obliges us to, as a result of legislation passed in the summer.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for what he said, but what I am trying to get to is that £3,500 was paltry compensation for a wife and three children. What we need for that family, going back as far as December ’71, is compensation that equates to what would be given today to people who are innocent victims. This was a Roman Catholic part-time soldier who had resigned from the UDR and was murdered because he served his country.

[Mr Hurd]

We are talking about innocent victims and a victims’ payment scheme which is not about restitution or compensation; it is about recognition and acknowledgment and doing more to improve the dignity and quality of life of those who are eligible. As I have acknowledged, there have been criticisms in the past about the effectiveness, fairness and efficiency of compensation processes, and it is, in part, in acceptance of that that the Government, with cross-party support, are extremely committed to moving forward on this matter.

As the House would expect me to point out, this is a devolved matter. It will, of course, always be our strong preference that the establishment of a payment scheme to acknowledge the harm done to victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland be led by Northern Ireland political parties within an established Executive. That is the first priority for us. The Secretary of State has left the Chamber, but I commend him for his active support of that process and hear the observations of the elected representatives of the DUP on that point. One thousand days on, we recognise that, not least due to the advancing years of many of those who could benefit from a victims’ pensions scheme, we must draw this matter to an acceptable resolution without delay.

The previous Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who was in her place but has left, asked the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Victims and Survivors to provide comprehensive advice on how a scheme of payments to those seriously injured in the troubles could be progressed, so that the issue was not indefinitely stalled in the absence of an Executive. That advice has been received. The UK Government are now committed, under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, if there is no Executive in place by 21 October—I have heard some pessimism on that front—to bringing forward regulations before the end of January, to ensure that a victims’ payment scheme can come into force in Northern Ireland by the end of May next year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

It is more than a technical point; it is a point of fairness. Both of those lines of inquiry reflect the fact that what was discussed through the Stormont House agreement, as I understand it, was relatively narrow in scope. We are discussing widening the scope and thinking through the consequences of doing so. I would not even be entertaining this conversation if our minds were not open to doing that, but it reinforces the need to think through the consequences, including the financial consequences, and the ability to defend any proposals.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) referred to people from Scotland, Wales and England who served in the Army. The same question applies to those from the Republic of Ireland who served in the British Army, of whom there is quite a number—sometimes, how many is underestimated. Will the same levels of compensation and pension apply to them, too?

[Mr Hurd]

The word “compensation” has come up several times. I think I should clarify that we are not talking about a compensation scheme. The victims payment scheme was originally crafted and designed to acknowledge the damage, harm and suffering that have occurred, and hopefully through those payments to make a difference to the dignity and quality of people’s lives. The hon. Gentleman presses me on the scope of a proposal that is wider than the one considered as part of the Stormont House agreement. We have to think it through and determine the degree to which we can hold a consensus.

To bring this to a close—I sense your approval, Madam Deputy Speaker—I wholly concur with the hon. Member for Belfast South on taking a victim-centred approach. I have been shocked by the way in which victims of the troubles have been left to feel neglected and disrespected. I feel strongly that we need to move forward on this agenda. One of the clear messages from the debate was the support for the guiding principle that we should constitute this scheme only as payments for those injured through no fault of her own. The hon. Lady pressed me for a commitment, and she is right: we can act, because this Parliament has rightly obliged us to so, and we will act, not just because the law requires us to do so if the Assembly is not up and running by 21 October, but because it is so clearly the right thing to do.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House takes note of and approves the Report pursuant to Section 3(13) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019—Victims’ Payments, which was laid before this House on Wednesday 4 September.

Police Funding Settlement

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Thursday 13th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Lady and I share an absolute determination to bear down on this terrible violence in London, and I salute the work that she has been doing for some time on that issue. Where she is wrong is on the economics. She talks about tax cuts, but she is talking to a party that has cut income tax for 32 million people and that has reduced the amount of tax paid by a basic-rate payer by £1,205 since it has been in power. She is talking to a party that, despite what it had to do to get public finances under control, has managed to keep council tax as low as possible. That is in stark contrast to her party, which doubled council tax when it was in power.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Minister’s commitment to the extra moneys to address terrorism and organised crime. Hailing from Northern Ireland, and from my constituency, I believe that security measures are as essential as the NHS. Funding has to be set aside for policing and communities, but funding for additional staffing must also be met. Will the Minister meet the cost of those duties and demands, and not rely on further tax hikes at council level, which would fall on the shoulders and the backs of the middle class, who are already squeezed?

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman will know that this is a settlement for England and Wales. To his point, it is designed to help police and crime commissioners to manage the very real cost pressures that they face while giving them the space to continue their plans to recruit additional officers and fill key capability gaps. Our priority is to help the police to increase their capacity and to do an even better job in responding to increases in demand. That is the full intention of this settlement.

Offence of Sex for Rent

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[Mr Hurd]

Yes. To be clear, the law applies equally online and offline. I will come on to the particular issue of websites. The hon. Gentleman also makes an important point, which should be part of the conversation with the social media companies, about education and information—not just about the law, but in terms of signposting avenues of support for extremely vulnerable people in this situation. We have to counter any suggestion that it is okay, normal or lawful.

To the hon. Gentleman’s point, which was also made by others, about why there have been no prosecutions even though we are clear about the law—I hope I have clarified the Government’s position on the letter of the law and our expectation that it will be enforced and that every report will be taken seriously—the honest truth is that we do not know how many prosecutions specifically relate to sex for rent. In 2016-17, there were 99 prosecutions for controlling prostitution compared with 100 the previous year, but at this point, our data does not provide the details about how many of those prosecutions relate to sex for rent, as opposed to any other controlling prostitution offence. I suspect that the number is very low.

Informed by this debate, I say to the hon. Gentleman that the policing of the matter is led by police forces, with a certain amount of flexibility as to how they apply the law. Obviously, their prioritisation is set by the local crime plan, which is set by the local police and crime commissioner. However, I undertake to the hon. Gentleman to engage directly with police chiefs and PCCs to get a better understanding of their understanding of the law and their approach to enforcing it. Some areas, such as the city he represents, will obviously have much higher levels of activity and risk than others.

We all understand that we are dealing with a landscape of lots of challenges and pressures on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, but given the seriousness of the issue and our concerns, I undertake to engage with the police chiefs and PCCs to get their understanding and feedback on their interpretation—or rather the interpretation of the law—the priority they attach to it and some of the challenges they face in enforcing the law. The hon. Gentleman unpicking the underlying psychology and the difficulties that some victims of this crime will have in coming forward and collaborating with and contributing to a prosecution was particularly thoughtful and telling.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for what he has said so far and for his positive response to our contributions. I remind him of Lord Morrow’s Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, if he would make this practice illegal on the mainland. We are looking for a way forward, so if he has the opportunity, I suggest that he looks at that Act and what was brought in in Northern Ireland through the Northern Ireland Assembly when the opportunity was there. It would work very well here. There has been cross-party support for it at the events we have held here, so I believe it is something that we could move forward on.

[Mr Hurd]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the law is clear. The question mark is around how the law is being enforced and what difficulties or challenges our law enforcement community and the criminal justice system have. That is what I would like to understand better. My undertaking to the hon. Member for Hove is that I will go and ask those questions to get better information.

I would like to pick up the points the hon. Gentleman made about websites, technology and the online community. Obviously, we have to work closely with those digital technology companies, but it fits into a broader context where there has been movement. Whether it be the previous Home Secretary’s activity, which I observed directly, to challenge the social media companies on their hosting of terrorist propaganda, or what the current Home Secretary is doing to challenge the social media companies to take more responsibility for their content in relation to child sexual exploitation and serious violence, I can see that that is an ongoing and escalating conversation and a challenge to those enormously powerful companies. They were reluctant to engage with us at the start, because they are desperate to avoid taking responsibility for the content on their platforms, but gradually, month by month, year by year, we feel that we are beginning to make progress at last.

The hon. Gentleman compared and contrasted a couple of websites. He described the very quick, active and socially responsible response of Gumtree to his campaign and his correspondence, and contrasted that with the response of craigslist. Clearly, he has a prejudice against sandal-wearing, cappuccino-swilling Californians, which I urge him to put aside for a minute. [Laughter.] However, there seems to be an issue with craigslist regarding its willingness to engage on this issue. I can say that officials have been frustrated in that respect as well.

I put this issue in the context of the other issues where we have been persistent in challenging digital technology companies to wake up to their responsibilities. That is what we are talking about here, particularly if it involves them in some way enabling an illegal act. If they are doing that, they need to be challenged. Again, I give an undertaking to the hon. Gentleman that I will personally engage with Craigslist and discuss the matter directly with the Home Secretary, to see what pressure we can apply from the Home Office and the Government to make the leadership of that organisation engage with this issue in ways that up to this point they have absolutely failed to do. I suggest it will cause quite significant reputational damage for them in the future as awareness of this problem grows, both in this place and outside it.

Synthetic Cannabinoids: Reclassification

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. This is not a debate about medicinal cannabis, but with your leave, I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his update on Sophia and the Gibson family. Home Office Ministers are not regularly fed a diet of good news, but I was absolutely delighted to hear that. Perhaps, through him, I might pass my good wishes to the family.

[Jim Shannon]

After I had finished my speech, the family contacted me to thank the Minister personally—they watched the comments we made just now.

[Mr Hurd]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, and I send my best to the family, who showed enormous patience and dignity throughout a very difficult situation.

This has been a good debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) on bringing the issue back before the House with persistence and tenacity. He is entirely right to do so. He described this as a serious national problem, and I do not think he is wrong about that. Statistics can be misleading. One might be lulled into thinking that synthetic cannabinoids are not a significant national problem by the statistic that less than 0.5% of 16 to 59-year-olds in England and Wales reported using a new psychoactive substance in the past year, which is broadly the same as the year before; it might seem a small number. However, as the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) pointed out, there is another number. There were 24 deaths related to synthetics in England and Wales in 2017. That is a terrible number to put alongside the evidence that has come, loud and clear, from Stoke, Chesterfield, Mansfield, Torbay and Wales, that the issue we are discussing causes real anxiety across the country. It confronts people with the terrible reality of its impact on some of the most vulnerable individuals in our communities, for whom, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) pointed out, £2 buys oblivion and a dehumanised state. We do not yet have that problem in Ruislip, Northwood or Pinner, but I have seen it with my own eyes on the streets of Newcastle, and it is a shocking and unsettling sight, which we do not want in our town centres, for all the reasons that Members of Parliament have powerfully articulated here today. As Members have said, the evolution of generations of such drugs is fast-moving and a major challenge.

I would like to assure the House that we are prioritising the issue, and I will set out some evidence for that. However, I remind the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North in particular that I get the urgency of the issue, and I will close with some remarks taking us forward a bit. We are prioritising the problem—the groundbreaking Psychoactive Substances Act 2016 was a substantial piece of legislation. I confirm, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield, that we shall publish our review of it before the end of November. However, as I have said in previous debates, there is evidence that the Act has had a powerful effect in removing new psychoactive substances from open sale and ending the game of cat and mouse between Government and backstreet chemists. Significantly, 300 retailers across the UK have closed down and are no longer selling the substances. Suppliers have been arrested, there has been action by the National Crime Agency to remove psychoactive substances and, in 2016, there were 28 convictions in England and Wales, with seven people jailed under the new powers. That rose to 152 convictions in 2017, with 62 people immediately sent to custody. In parallel with that legislation, three separate sets of controls on the progressive generations of synthetic cannabinoids have been introduced, in 2009, 2012 and 2016.

Medicinal Cannabis

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his help so far. I thank him, in particular, for the meeting that we had with my constituent Danielle Gibson about her daughter, Sophia. The Minister will know, and the House needs to know, that Darren and Danielle Gibson took their daughter Sophia to Holland to receive cannabis oil, under prescription and controlled. During the three weeks they were there, she had only one seizure instead of the dozens that she has every day. In the past 48 hours, she has not eaten or slept. At this moment in time, there is six months of cannabis oil available for her, paid for, sitting in Holland for her to collect. What will I tell my constituents? How long will the process take?

[Mr Hurd]

As the hon. Gentleman and I have discussed before, and in the presence of Danielle, there is a mechanism—a process—that can lead to a legal, sustainable solution to this through a licensing process that needs to be clinically led. In this case, it is devolved to the Northern Ireland Administration, as he well knows. There is a process. We are feeling our way. We all want to drive this fast, but it does need to be done properly. In the situation that we had this week with Billy, we were responding to an emergency situation where clinical leads inside an institution came to us and said, “We need this on an emergency, limited-duration basis.” The long-term solution for Billy now has to be clinically led, but we were responding to an emergency situation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Monday 16th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

7. What progress has been made on bringing forward legislative proposals to license cannabis oil for prescription for epilepsy.

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

The World Health Organisation has committed to reviewing the scheduling of cannabis under the 1961 United Nations convention. It is due to consider the therapeutic use, dependence on and potential to abuse constituent parts of cannabis. The Government will await the outcome of that report before considering next steps.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for his response. With special reference to Dravet syndrome, the seizures associated with which are aided incredibly by cannabis oil in a larger dose, can he confirm whether his Department will legislate for specific uses, to allow doctors to prescribe it to the likes of little Sophia Gibson in my constituency, whose parents Darren and Danielle are at this moment in Holland, where Sophia is receiving medical treatment?

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman has raised his constituent’s case with me in writing, and we have a huge amount of sympathy for Sophia Gibson and her family. He will know that we need to ensure that doctors and patients are assured of the quality, safety and efficacy of medicines before they come to market, but I have written to the hon. Gentleman to arrange a meeting to discuss his constituent’s case.

Air Rifles

Debate between Jim Shannon and Nick Hurd

Monday 9th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) not just on securing the debate but on her persistence in pursuing an issue of great importance and on how she has framed tonight’s debate on safer use of airguns. I know that she has been concerned about the issue for some time following the appalling injury suffered by Harry Studley in her constituency. He was just 18 months old when he was shot with an air rifle in July of last year, and I join the hon. Lady in applauding the resilience of his family and the actions of the emergency services in saving his life.

As will become clear in my speech, the Government are not remotely complacent on this issue, but it is important to make the point early on that we have strong firearms controls in this country. They are there for a purpose—to minimise the risk of harm to the public —and, within the general consensus about the importance of these controls, the regulation of air weapons has long been a matter of debate, with lawful users arguing that they should be allowed to enjoy their property without unnecessary restrictions, and others arguing for tougher regulation to improve public safety.

As the hon. Lady rightly pointed out, the recent decision by the Scottish Government to introduce a licensing regime for lower-powered air weapons has quite rightly led to a renewed focus on the regulatory position in England and Wales. She will know as well as I do that a balance has to be struck, particularly regarding weapons that present a lower risk and weapons that are used in well-regulated environments such as shooting clubs.

I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady’s remarks this evening, and I have also given careful consideration to the report presented by the coroner in relation to the tragic death of Benjamin Wragge, who was 13 when he was accidentally shot with an air weapon in 2016. I have recently written to the coroner and confirmed my intention to review the regulation of air weapons in England and Wales. I think that this is an appropriate time to take stock of the regulatory position and assess whether the current controls, which are already strong, continue to be appropriate and effective.

[Jim Shannon]

The contributions from Members who have personal knowledge of the matter have made this a difficult Adjournment debate. When it comes to looking further into legislative change, will the Minister assure hon. Members that consultation will take place with shooting organisations such as the British Association for Shooting and Conservation and the Countryside Alliance?

[Mr Hurd]

There is no point in having a consultation if it does not include the opinions of those with a voice and an educated view, so I give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I also provide the assurance that I will be meeting members of Benjamin Wragge’s family later this year. I will listen carefully to their views, as I will to those of their Member of Parliament, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), who has written to me on the matter.

I intend to look carefully at the existing controls on air weapons, including how best to ensure that such weapons are stored safely and securely, so that they do not get into the hands of children. The hon. Member for Bristol South suggested that features such as trigger locks should be used, or that air weapons should be required to be stored in a locked cabinet. Those issues need to be looked at in some detail.

I should make it clear to the House that, although I think that a review of air weapon regulation is important and timely, we will do so against the background of existing controls that are, by all international comparisons, very robust and of a long-term decline in the number of crimes involving air weapons. For the record, I will set out some of the existing controls. First, the law recognises that some air weapons are more dangerous than others. In particular, only lower-powered air weapons can be held without a licence. More dangerous air weapons need to be licensed by the police. In addition, I believe that we have robust controls to prevent unauthorised access.