Child Maintenance Service

Debate between Jim Shannon and Peter Bone

Tuesday 18th April 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is the children who are vulnerable. In many cases it is the mother, too, and on the odd occasion it is the father—it depends on the issues—but the focus of our attention should be on the children, as it is in this debate.

Gingerbread referred to

“new debts piling up in the new system worth an average of £668 per family.”

That is a huge amount of money to a single-parent family; it could be the uniform or the lunch money. There must be a way of getting that money paid or the matter addressed. Gingerbread also notes that

“almost £4bn of unpaid maintenance arrears has accumulated over the 23-year lifespan of the Child Support Agency…which is in the process of being shut down and replaced by its successor, the Child Maintenance Service”.

We hope that the CMS will learn from the mistakes of the CSA and deliver a better system. I look to the Minister to explain how such a better system will be unveiled and how it will ensure that parents and children get their money when they should. However, the Government estimate that only 12% of that amount is ever likely to be recovered. Although I may look to the Minister for a positive response and for guidance, I am well aware that the Government have already stated that they will not get all the money anyway—they have almost drawn a line in the sand and said, “We can’t do it.” I have to say that that is very disappointing.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), who is no longer in her place, referred in an intervention to the staff. Although the administration of the system is devolved, the rules, regulations and laws on the CSA and the CMS are decreed by Westminster. Staff are moved about all the time. In all my years of dealing with child maintenance issues, I cannot remember ever speaking to the same person twice about the same issue. More often than not, people phone up and say, “They said they would phone me back, but they didn’t.” How many times have I heard that? It is unbelievable how often staff move about and that happens.

The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) referred to cases in which a father moves job and becomes self-employed. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of cases in which a father in a very comfortable position, earning big money, has said to his wife and two children, “I am not going to be self-employed any more—I am going to go and live with my dad,” and has run away from his responsibility for maintenance. I believe that is wrong. There are others who go on the dole or who take up a job as a taxi driver—I have nothing against taxi drivers, but their earnings are all cash in hand and they can declare their own figure after their expenses. We need to look at this.

There are also delays in the system. I am now in direct contact with the manager of the system in Northern Ireland. To be fair, contacting him seems to initiate a response, but what about all the other people who are not MPs? What about the mother who is at her wits’ end because she does not have the money to look after her children? I expect—as you and other hon. Members would, Mr Bone—the same response to mothers like her as there is to us.

Gingerbread has found that

“evidence suggests that decreasing effort is being put by the government into collecting more than £700m of arrears on existing cases…Meanwhile, within the new CMS, a new system of incentives and penalties was intended to prevent arrears arising in the first place. Yet, after almost two-and-a-half-years of full operation, £52.5m has accumulated in CMS maintenance arrears, with almost half of all non-resident parents in the system having some child maintenance debt. And these figures will increase as cases are gradually transferred across from the old system.”

I have also seen cases of parents—I have to say that in all cases they were fathers—who have moved out of the country and got a job abroad. I wonder how we can chase up non-residents of the United Kingdom.

I echo the cry of Gingerbread’s former chief executive Fiona Weir, who said in June:

“Britain’s child maintenance system is contributing to a culture where too many parents think it’s optional, rather than obligatory, to pay their child’s maintenance…The accumulated level of CSA arrears is staggering and completely unacceptable. With analysis showing that one-in-five families are lifted out of poverty by child maintenance payments, this is vital money that parents, and their children, can’t do without.”

She clearly outlined the issue and where we are on it. She went on to say:

“And with the Institute for Fiscal Studies calculating that poverty rates for single parent families will double by 2020”—

therefore, the situation will get worse—

“more than ever that child maintenance owed for children needs to be collected by the Government.”

We look to the Minister and the Government to see how best they can do that.

There are also parents who are separated or divorced who come to a financial arrangement, which is an agreement by the two people. It is quite a good system, because by and large they come to a financial arrangement that is equal to what the CSA or the CMS would have arranged. However, I am frustrated, because sometimes the CSA—or, now, the CMS—will pursue those making financial arrangements to see if they can get more out of them. They almost look at them as easy targets and I find that most frustrating.

This issue is continually raised in my office. Just last week, I had a father in my office who has children from a previous relationship. His ex is in a better job than he is and is much better off financially. He has not run away from his obligations to support his children, but there must be a financial equation that is fair and realistic, and that enables everyone to do what they have to do. Fewer than half the eligible families receive child maintenance, an estimated 70% of closed CSA cases involve outstanding arrears, and £52.5 million is already owed under the CMS system.

Communication is also vital. Whenever a lady phones up looking for her CSA payments, I expect the Department to phone her back, so we must initiate a better system, because communication is so important. In the life that we live as MPs in this House, communication—how we relate to and respond to our constituents—is so much of our bread and butter.

I am conscious of the time, so I will finish with this. There are failures that are clear, and these must be addressed, so we must look at the rules, regulations and guidelines that come out of Westminster and consider how we can change them so that the system can work better, whether in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales or England. I look to the Minister for assurance that these past debts will be actively sought and that changes will be made to prevent that situation from continuing. With that in mind, we must do better than collecting just 12%.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Before I call the last Back Bencher, which will be David Burrowes, let me say that I will now start the wind-ups at 12.33 pm, because this is a Backbench Business Committee debate and we want to make sure that Back Benchers have a chance to speak in it.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Peter Bone

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Temporary Chair]

We are debating clauses 3, 4 and 5 together if any Member wants to speak on them.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Mr Bone, for clarifying the process. I have put this all together, if the Minister could just bear with me.

The Minister referred to investigation and charging in relation to clauses 3 to 5 and I want to ask a question about that. We see a simplification of the process relating to service personnel charged with offences. I assume the Minister is saying that that will be achieved by reducing the number of stages required for the decision to bring charges. Not only will the provision make it easier to bring charges where appropriate, and ensure discipline and order are maintained in our armed forces, it will streamline the process and reduce bureaucracy so that commanding officers are free to go about other duties essential to the smooth running of all aspects of our armed services. Will the Minister clarify the role of the commanding officer in an investigation?

If the Minister will bear with me, clause 2 related to alcohol and drugs. As we are talking about investigation, I want to comment on that. The new rules on drug and alcohol testing are similar, but not identical, to the provisions under the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003. The 2003 Act provides for an alcohol and drug testing regime that is applicable to both the maritime and aviation environments, but the armed forces have Crown exemption. Will the Minister clarify this matter in relation to the new rules on drug and alcohol testing and investigations?

The Bill will remedy that and strengthen the approach to alcohol or drug misuse within the armed forces, as well as being more specific about what grounds justify a drug or alcohol test. It will make it easier for those in charge of an investigation to order a drug or alcohol test when needed, which can only make our armed forces safer and more secure, while simplifying the process to make it easier for commanding officers to secure a drug or alcohol test.

The new statutory framework for immunity from prosecution will give the Director of Service Prosecutions and service courts powers that may assist investigators and prosecutors in cases where it may otherwise be difficult to persuade service personnel to co-operate with the service police and to give evidence. The Minister will be aware of a specific case in Northern Ireland where investigations are ongoing. I believe the provisions are a positive development that will improve transparency across our armed forces and improve the security of individuals. Of course, this could be particularly important to Northern Ireland where there have been continuous attempts, through spurious allegations, to drag the names of former soldiers through the mud. We must never let the legitimate forces of law and order be equated with cold-blooded murderous terrorists. I hope that this aspect of the Bill can ensure that the brave service personnel who fought terrorism in Northern Ireland will never be dragged through the courts by those who terrorised our state, or by their sympathisers and supporters.

On investigation and prosecution in relation to this particular issue, what role will the Minister play? I am sure we are keen to put in place a transparent method of investigation and prosecution. There has to be protection for our brave service personnel. Where we can, we should give them immunity, but we must always give them our full and unreserved legal support and aid, should they need it.

I hope that was clear for the Minister. I have raised several issues about investigation that have to be addressed.

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Peter Bone)]

As it is coming towards Christmas, we let the hon. Gentleman go back slightly to clause 2. [Hon. Members: “And forward!”]. And forward, yes. But we have been moving rapidly, and he was seeking advice as he went.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Peter Bone

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bone]

My hon. Friend is far too kind, as always, but I was not making a point about any individual Members. My point, to all Members sitting here, is that if we really care and campaign about something—as the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) has done consistently —we can get there in the end. We should never be scared to stand up and be in the minority, because after a while the minority often becomes the majority.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that all UK nationals, including those in Gibraltar, will have a vote on this issue? We in Northern Ireland want to see it happen so that we, too, can make our choice. The only thing that I am a wee bit perturbed about is that we would prefer the referendum to be held earlier, rather than later. Does he agree that we should have it as soon as possible?

[Mr Bone]

This is a Second Reading debate, so I want to support the principle of what is happening and to celebrate the fact that we will have the in/out referendum. However, the hon. Gentleman raises an issue that slightly concerns me, which, it will be no surprise to learn, is the timetabling of the Bill’s Committee stage.

The Bill is a constitutional one so, rightly, the Committee stage will be held on the Floor of the House. Today, immediately after Second Reading, we will vote on the programme motion, which we are not allowed to debate at that point, although by tradition we may refer to it on Second Reading. My concern about the timetabling is that the Bill is scheduled to be in Committee in the House for two days, which will be Tuesday and Thursday of next week. The programme motion states that the first set of clauses will be debated for four hours after the commencement of the Bill in Committee. We know what happens, however, especially on a Thursday—there will be business questions after normal Question Time, and that is two hours used up. If there is then a statement and an Urgent Question, although we will have been able to debate the first group for four hours, we will have no time at all to discuss the last group.

Before we have the business statement on Thursday, will the Minister ask the business managers whether they can change the programme motion so that, instead of the debate on the second group of new clauses finishing at the moment of interruption, it can go on for as long as necessary? This is an important constitutional Bill, and we should not be in a position of having only about 10 minutes to debate certain new clauses. That happened too often in the old Parliament. If we could just remove from the programme motion those two little bits that would cause the Committee stage to fall at the moment of interruption, it would help the democratic process a lot. Many people have said today, whatever side of the argument they are on, that they want a fair and proper referendum. I absolutely agree with that, and if the House has the ability to consider properly what is going to be in the Bill and what is going to happen in the referendum, we will be all the better for it. This is the one point that I ask the Minister to look at.