Conversion Practices

Debate between Jim Shannon and Yvonne Fovargue

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Fovargue, and to speak in this debate. I may have a slightly different opinion from many here due to where I come from. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will show the respect that I have shown in listening to them and listen to me as I put forward my point of view. I say that, but some of the speeches this morning were incredibly balanced. As I have said, I may have a different opinion, but I’ll tell you what: Members have put their point of view over very admirably and in a very balanced way, and that is appreciated.

I am very grateful that we are having this debate today on an important subject that will affect many in our constituencies: I have certainly had occasion to use my position as a representative to try and help people, although not on a regular basis. I will be very conscious not to give away any confidential information on issues or conversations I have had. I am not even going to talk much about individuals, because I would not want to have any impact on them, but parents have come to me with great concern over what is happening with their children.

I am going to give a parent’s point of view, as both a parent and a representative. I very much recognise the need for nuance and a careful, measured analysis of the impacts of any policy proposals. It is vital to preface any discussion of conversion therapy by clearly condemning abuse and coercion of any kind, be it physical, mental or emotional. There can be no tolerance for any form of abuse in this country or any other. I express my deepest concern, sorrow and sympathy for all who have suffered from any form of harassment, abuse or discrimination. I say that very clearly as an introduction.

The issue at hand is wide-ranging and affects a number of areas. When we discuss possible legislation, we must reflect this broad awareness of the situation. Banning conversion therapy involves several parties, including children and youth, parents, schools, religious and belief communities, and others. I would like to address potential issues for several of those parties that may be caused by a ban on conversion therapy.

First, children and youth may be affected in significant ways by a conversion therapy ban as currently described. Such a ban could lead to limitations on the ability of children and youth to maintain informal or formal religious groups, such as prayer groups, which are used to promote spirituality and repentance in the Christian context. That is where I am coming from. People make their choices, but I am trying, as I do in all areas of my life, to be balanced in what I say and respect other people and points of view. With that in mind, I hope that people will also respect my point of view.

As a Christian myself, I recognise the importance of prayer as a tool to promote wellbeing. I believe that prayer can move mountains: the mountains in our lives, the mountains in the world, and the obstacles we come up against. For many Christians, it is an important devotional practice that may be limited by a conversion therapy ban. I am giving a parental point of view, and hopefully a very balanced Christian point of view as well—I am trying to do that very humbly, respectfully and sincerely to everyone.

Another consequence of a potential conversion therapy ban is that parents could be significantly affected in their daily responsibilities for the welfare of their children. According to some of the proposed conversion therapy bans, parents could be legally threatened if they choose not to allow their children to take puberty blockers. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has referred to it twice, and I cannot ignore it. We cannot ignore this issue. It is a transformative medical practice, into which parents of children and youth surely ought to have an input. That is what the hon. Gentleman said, what my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has said, and that is what I believe as well.

I fear that a conversion therapy ban could leave well-meaning, responsible parents vulnerable to unfair legal measures and social retaliation. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) encompassed many of my thoughts. I know the hon. Lady very well, and we have had conversations, so I understand the issue.

Ms Fovargue, I recognise that the time you indicated is up. There are some things I need to put down. Do we have time?

[Yvonne Fovargue (in the Chair)]

Yes

[Jim Shannon]

Thank you very much; I appreciate that.

It is vital for the wellbeing of any family that parents have the ability to raise their children within their own culture, religion or belief standards. If they are unable to do so, we will see negative impacts on families of all types, which will affect the wellbeing of communities and schools. We ought to embrace diversity, understanding and tolerance of others. Conversion therapy was addressed in the 2021 Queen’s Speech. The background briefing notes for the Speech noted the Government’s intention:

“We will ensure the action we take to stop this practice is proportionate and effective, and does not have unintended consequences.”

There are unintended consequences to a conversion therapy ban—potentially some of those that have been described. I ask that we all diligently examine the effects of such a ban on every party that might be affected.

In conclusion, abuse of any kind is unacceptable, as is discrimination and intolerance. I ask that each of us—individually—closely examine our policies to ensure that those behaviours are properly condemned in all settings. We need to be building cultures of love, warmth and growth. I am grateful for my colleagues’ important contributions to that effort, which I may or may not agree with. Let us continue to seek solutions that will foster those environments, while respecting the rights and duties of parents every time—of parents from diverse backgrounds. A conversion therapy ban as typically described does not, to me and to others, seem to do so. But I believe that we can, and will, come to solutions that will be in the best interest of all affected parties.

Community Debt Advice Services

Debate between Jim Shannon and Yvonne Fovargue

Wednesday 1st December 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

We do not want to lose quality of life, but we do need to deal with the reality of life. The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) outlined in great detail the issues that most families feel—and address. It is easy for me to talk about time with the family, because it is my wife Sandra who chooses the Christmas gifts. She is better at it than me, and knows what the children want. The money we spend is disbursed as she sees fit. However, for other people, it will be a juggling exercise between buying Christmas presents and being able to afford the oil and electric bills. That is the issue and that is why I am here to speak on behalf of those constituents who are under great pressure.

The security is not there for many families. Rather than seeing disappointed faces on Christmas morning, people make purchases and live with the debt for months to come. Last week, in my local press back home, there was an indication that this year in particular, the issue for those who have maxed out their credit cards is that they will turn to payday loans. I have forever cautioned against that, because the reality will be extreme. There will be a pain-free two weeks, but then there will be a very painful month after Christmas. I have extreme concern for those people.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Is the hon. Gentleman as concerned as I am about the rise in buy now, pay later debts? These are increasing exponentially; one advice agency said that 34% of people are now coming to them with buy now, pay later debts.

[Jim Shannon]

I certainly am concerned. I am going to give two examples of those who have had extreme difficulties. There are many groups in my constituency that do great work; Citizens Advice is one of them. I have dealt with Citizens Advice ever since I became an elected representative, first, as a councillor in 1985, then as a Member of the Legislative Assembly and now as a Westminster MP. I have a good working relationship and regular contact with Christians Against Poverty; they are inundated with people who have decided to make this new year the one when they get on top of their finances. Last year, CAP helped over 16,000 people with debt; they shared in the success of 2,500 becoming debt free—wow, it is a big day for people when they become debt free. It is so important. They helped almost 1,500 people through a covid-19 emergency appeal. Christians Against Poverty in my constituency are based at Thriving Life Church in Newtownards. I think probably all the churches have a help and advice service, similar to what Christians Against Poverty do. However, Thriving Life Church does particularly incredible work.

While I was sitting in this debate, I thought of one example—I am conscious of time and I want to be fair to other Members. On occasion I have had to contact Pastor Cotter of Elim Church, Newtownards, to deal with some personal debt issues that he has been able to help with. His ability to work through the mechanics of the mathematics and make sure that people get out the other side is incredible. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said in her introduction, and it cannot be emphasised enough, that this drives people to the very edge of desperation. I have seen that. Christians Against Poverty facilitate, through some 1,200 churches across the UK, help and advice to those families and individuals who have got themselves into difficulties with their money. Many of these are working people; they are the working poor. These are the people we are here to represent. They are people who have incredible financial difficulty, who are squeezed most by the removal of the tax credit bonus, and who are suffering most with the universal credit differences.

I am going to give another, desperate example. I know one young women in my constituency whose disability living allowance was turned down. Over the 7 months of her appeal process, she found herself in over £4,000 debt, through maxed-out credit cards and payday loans—she was absolutely in over her head. I know that this is not the Minister’s responsibility, but there must be some way of hurrying up the process. It eventually found in her favour after seven months, but that was seven months of excruciating worry where she was pushed to the point of suicide. This is no exaggeration, but by the time she came into my office she was sobbing her heart out, mortified and suicidal. I was so grateful that my staff knew who and where to send her—where she would receive help and compassion and where there would be no judgment.

People who max out their cards are scared, fearful, apprehensive and extremely worried. That is why Citizens Advice, Christians Against Poverty and other groups are so important, and that is why we as elected representatives make those points on behalf of our constituents. My constituent needed CAP’s help, and that is why I believe that CAP and other community debt organisations are essential in today’s climate. Not only do they help to take the stress of the phone calls and letters but they future-proof finances. In other words, they sort out people’s issues today as well as giving them advice for the future—it is important that they do not later fall back into debt—and teaching finance coping mechanisms. They go through day-to-day finances with savings schemes and allocate money for small treats—people need the small treats for their children and families that many of us take for granted, such as a cinema trip or the Chinese at the weekend—as they understand life and have the expertise and knowledge to teach others a better way of handling the stress and pressure of life.

Christians Against Poverty and other community debt advice providers save lives and prevent the break-up of family units with their support and help. I thank CAP in Newtownards, based at Thriving Life church, for all that it does. Community debt centres are lifelines, and we have a responsibility to ensure that they have funding available to help to cover the costs of their free services, which save lives and improve people’s quality of life. As we come towards Christmas, I remind people that there is a way to come to terms with crippling debt: take that first step of acknowledging your problems and seeking the help you need. People want to help you, and your MP will want to help. Do not wait for the new year to come. Do it now, and have your Christmas unburdened by the stress of debt that is weighing you down. Help is available—just ask. People are there who could help you.

ATM Closures

Debate between Jim Shannon and Yvonne Fovargue

Tuesday 4th December 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on bringing forward an issue that is important for every one of us here. It is a particularly important issue for me, as I have fought for ATM retention in many places across my constituency, sometimes successfully and sometimes not, mostly due to bank closures. I will use the time available today to do that.

For those who hail from a rural constituency, the availability of free-to-use ATMs is essential. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) have both outlined the importance of that. In recent times, bank closures have severely affected rural communities, particularly those in my constituency, where I think we have had seven bank closures. I live on the Ards peninsula, and the effect of the closures on the rural community is intense. When the banks close, often no ATMs are retained because the building is sold and there is nowhere to put it, which is very frustrating. My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) made a salient point: whenever the banks move out of the villages and toward the town centres, the business moves with them, meaning that villages and small places come under intense pressure.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not just bank closures but post office closures that have that effect? Although the closure programme for small post offices has been completed, two post offices in my constituency have closed because the sub-postmasters have resigned and they cannot get anyone else to do it. The Payment Systems Regulator, which told me that cash is available at post offices, has not taken that into account.

Post Office Closures

Debate between Jim Shannon and Yvonne Fovargue

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Gillan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) on securing this important debate. He is keen to ascertain what the Government will do to ensure that the Post Office has proper plans in place for provision and that, where there are problems, it acts quickly to ensure an available replacement, whether on a temporary or permanent basis.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) hit the nail on the head and spoke for everyone when he said that the post office is the heart of the community. Post offices are indeed an essential part of British life, providing somewhere for people not only to buy their stamps and post letters and parcels but, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Dr Monaghan) said, to access many other vital services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) said, sometimes they are the only places where people can access such services—it might not be possible to go anywhere else.

Of course, things do change. Quite often that is as a result of technological change. The hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) summed that up by saying that we are in a digital age and, as a result, the number of post offices has fallen in recent years. Most post office branches are operated by franchise partners or sub-postmasters who are independent business people, so, in order for their post offices to remain open, they often rely on Government subsidy. Despite some reassurance, clearly there are still real pressures, which have not been helped by the controversy surrounding the Post Office’s Horizon accounting system.

Many hon. Members have raised cases in the House in which it appears that honest and hard-working sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have had their reputation tarnished and livelihood threatened—in some cases they have lost their liberty—having been accused of improper accounting. Whatever the truth, in those cases computer software was responsible for the loss of large sums of money. Unquestionably, that may have acted as an off-putting factor for those who might have considered running a post office as part of their business.

In addition, as has been pointed out, some post office proprietors have been resigning from the business because they are concerned that their post offices are not financially viable. Local papers throughout the country are full of stories—I see them in my constituency—of postmasters and postmistresses struggling to stay in business. Often, that occurs where Post Office Ltd has changed the status of a local post office as part of national changes to the service, which leaves them having to rely on commission to offer what services they can.

When that happens, the survival of the post office is dependent on the viability of the shop in which it is contained and some complain that they cannot afford to run the post office, in particular owing to the extended opening hours demanded by Post Office Ltd. Will the Minister tell us how many sub-postmasters have resigned in the past year as a result of being unable to run their business profitably with a post office in their premises? What procedures do the Government expect them to follow when it becomes clear that a post office is in danger of closing?

Without proactive policies, thousands of constituents can be left without a local post office because Post Office Ltd is unable to rely on the good will of an individual operator. Does the Minister believe that Post Office Ltd is taking adequate steps to be proactive in preventing closure and acting swiftly enough to ensure that a replacement is available locally when a post office has to close? Indeed, does he believe that conditions put on replacements, such as very long opening hours, are unreasonable?

[Jim Shannon]

One thing that has not been mentioned but the Minister could take on board for his response is the possibility of incentivising financially those who want to take over a post office. Perhaps the Government need to offer a small financial bonus or incentive to enable people at least to consider that, based on a contract and proper conditions. That has happened in Northern Ireland and perhaps it should happen here as well.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

That is certainly something to put to the Minister. The Government have committed £640 million from 2015 to 2018 to fund the network transformation programme and to protect branches where vital services are provided to communities but the post office is not commercially viable. Is the Minister content that sufficient funding is being provided to fulfil that task? What will happen when the subsidy runs out in 2018? Can he guarantee that after that point the transformation programme will have ensured that remaining post offices are commercially viable? I look forward to his response.

Public Sector Funding

Debate between Jim Shannon and Yvonne Fovargue

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) on obtaining the debate. In the short time available, I will consider two areas. The first is the cuts to the advice sector throughout the country and the complexity of the funding for that sector. Local authority funding constitutes the building blocks on which a local bureau or a local advice centre works, although such places have a range of other funding. The National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux has recently published a report to show that, throughout the country, bureaux face on average a 15% cut. There are some notable exceptions, both good and bad, but a simple salami-slicing approach has been taken in a number of cases. Local authorities have not appreciated the cost to them of cutting those services—when the services go, people end up on their doorstep in a worse position.

[Jim Shannon]

Does the hon. Lady agree that a time of economic austerity, when the demands on citizens advice bureaux are greater than ever before, is a time not to cut funding for CAB and the work that they do, but to encourage them and give them more funding?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I completely agree.

Also at risk was the funding for face-to-face debt advice, which has been given a year’s reprieve, although there are still arguments about the management costs centrally. It is proposed that social welfare law should go out of the scope of legal aid funding at the very time when we are introducing a new welfare system. Many bureaux have funding from primary care trusts, which are also going. Advice agencies could disappear—97% of law centre funding is under threat. I make this plea to the Minister: will he please look across the board and bring all the Departments together when they consider the funding for advice services? Otherwise, the cuts to each Department will affect that sector particularly badly.

I also want to consider my local services in Makerfield borough. Makerfield and Wigan benefit from 24,900 volunteer hours a week, and 68,835 people benefit from the services provided. Those volunteers need the support of paid staff and, often, the support of the infrastructure organisations. We would not expect any employee to work without the support of management and without a decent regime of health and safety, supervision and career development, so why do we expect volunteers to do that? That is what the cuts mean—the volunteers will not be there without the support of those paid staff.

Central Government are looking at cutting the infrastructure organisations. One particular concern for my local council for voluntary service is the vinvolved funding. Over three years, the vinvolved project in Wigan has dealt with 1,071 youths, most of whom were classified as NEET—not in education, employment or training. There has been a significant reduction in repeat antisocial behaviour orders for that group and an increase in the number of people going into work. Cutting that programme will leave those youths with nowhere to go. They will be back on street corners in the neighbourhoods that have previously complained about them. It is so important to young people that they be brought into volunteering. My local branch of Age Concern has pointed out to me the value of bringing those young people into its organisation and the cross-generational work that that has engendered.