Cruise Market (Competition)

Debate between John Denham and Mike Penning

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Denham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mike Penning]

If the right hon. Gentleman could bear with me, I will give way in a moment.

Looking at the situation from my point of view, have we been open and completely honest about what we did and the process? I believe we have. Is Liverpool doing what I asked it to do? No, because it has not paid the money back and we do not yet have state aid clearance. Do I have the power to stop Liverpool? The answer is no. Would I really want to? If the European Commission declares the payment to be incorrectly done state aid—my legal advice is that it is not—Liverpool would have to pay the moneys back. Liverpool, however, has indicated that it will pay the money back. The words of the then leader of Liverpool city council, now the mayor, were, in effect: “We will pay back what you ask us to pay back.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

My hon. Friend is leading me down a path that I am probably quite happy to be led down. I understand from my legal advice that the Commission has never asked for any such funding back in other, similar cases. Looking around Europe at subsidies, the Commission would probably rather not open such a Pandora’s box.

[Mr Denham]

The Minister says that he has no power to act, but infraction proceedings would be taken against the British Government in the first instance, not Liverpool. Ministers have always had the ability to prevent the misuse of European regional development fund money, if they thought the misuse would leave the Government liable to action by the Commission. There must be legal powers for him to take to guard against the risk of infraction proceedings by the European Commission.

Port of Southampton

Debate between John Denham and Mike Penning

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mike Penning]

I do not know how Hansard is going to get the word “cock-up” in, but there it is again.

The MMO is a quango with almost no ministerial control whatever. Many of the civil servants in the previous incarnation did not transfer to the new organisation because it was reincarnated in Newcastle. Much of the personal knowledge about this particular case was not transferred. Once we have got through this—I must ensure that I do not interfere with any judicial process—we will be looking very closely at the matter. Remember this is a Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Department for Transport issue. Do not get me wrong, the Minister would never have seen this; it would never have got to him. This was below the radar level. None the less, it is quite simple to say, “You looked at these ports and you asked for this, this and this. When you came to this port, you didn’t ask for something that you have asked for at nearly every other port that I have looked at.” We will address this matter.

I want to look at how the MMO works. As the Minister standing before the Chamber, listening to colleagues and going on visits, it is enormously frustrating having very little control over things such as the harbour revision order. Even if the whole local community and the MP is against that order, all I can do is advise the MMO; I cannot actually instruct it.

[Mr Denham]

I am sure that there are many bigger issues to do with the MMO that need to be dealt with; the Minister is right. None the less, in five weeks’ time, the consultation will end. The MMO has to deal properly with that consultation so that it is free of legal challenge, but it must do it in an extremely timely manner. One of the reasons for having the debate with this Minister and this Department is that it is this Department that understands how important the issue is. I am not convinced that DEFRA Ministers do, and I am not sure that the MMO does. What we are asking the Minister today is for him and his Secretary of State to say to DEFRA, “In five weeks’ time, if you don’t have the right people in place with the right expertise, you will not be able to handle this in a satisfactory and timely manner.”

[Mike Penning]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman and he has probably taken the first point that I was going to make. I can do three things today. First, I can speak to my counterparts in DEFRA and tell them how seriously we consider this matter. If the MMO does not have the expertise, capacity and confidence to make a watertight decision, we will offer it the officials to help it to do that. It is independent of the Department for Transport, but I am sure that we can provide secondments if we need to.

The second thing we can do, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), is to say to Hutchison, “You have made your point.” There is no benefit in delaying this matter with a further challenge. As long as Associated British Ports does what it is asked to do with regards to the MMO and it supports the MMO decision, then that should be it. I cannot make it do that, but I am a constructive friend. I am sure that there are people who will be listening carefully to what the Minister has said about this delay. I am a friend of all the ports. I want competition, but this is not looking particularly good any more with regard to Hutchison. I fully understand its position. The law was not adhered to and maladministration took place, which is why the judicial review was minded to go down such an avenue. For lots of reasons, not least those relating to UK plc, jobs, infrastructure and the people of the Southampton area, we need to move on. Capacity ports need to be available. When outside investment considers UK plc, they may say, “We would like to invest there”. However, their Google alert or some other agency may then say, “Hold up a second, if you try to get consent down there, these are the sorts of problems you will get.”

I want Bristol to go ahead with its decisions. I want Liverpool, separate from the cruise business, to be able to go ahead with the deepwater port. I want Tees to go ahead as well. The Tyne is another one that should go ahead despite the issues relating to contamination. I was there only the other day. If all those ports go ahead, it will create the capacity that we need to get freight off the roads. As our economy grows, and it will grow, we need to ensure that we can be in the marketplace. We need to be a hub for these huge containers. Let us not underestimate the sheer size of the task that we are talking about. I stood at Felixstowe on the deck of one of the larger Maersk ships and looked down on the cranes that were trying to load her. Those cranes have now been replaced by even larger ones, which the Secretary of State must have seen when she was there the other day.

We need to be in-step with a market that is world led. We have been world leaders in this field for years and years. We stepped back when previous Governments did not take ports and shipping seriously. I do take them seriously and I hope that this plan goes ahead for Southampton.