Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]

John McDonnell Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Commons Chamber

Transparency is where we now hoist our flag, and it is the hill we fight on. It is the most practical solution, and there is no technical reason why we cannot have full transparency. There is no reason why artists, creators and inventors should not know that their work is being scraped by generative AI bots. There is no reason why we cannot make sure that we deal with this and make sure that all our musicians have the right to assert their rights. The only thing stopping that is a fear of angering the tech lobbyists, but we must take seriously the property rights of 2.4 million creatives who contribute £126 billion to the UK economy every year.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

The right hon. Gentleman has rightly referred to creatives throughout the debate. As I have said in earlier debates, I am the secretary of the parliamentary group of the National Union of Journalists, and we have expressed our concern about journalists and photographers, whom we also represent. The union position is very straightforward, espousing adherence to copyright but also to openness and transparency, and regulation of the mechanisms that will be used in future for scraping in particular. This is now having an impact on the quality of journalism, on which our democracy rests.

[Pete Wishart]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to remind us about journalism. What has been notable, along with the clumsy way in which the Government have approached these issues, is the unity that exists throughout the creative sector, taking on board what is happening in journalism. We have seen some fantastic coalitions of interests emerging from all this. That is another positive development, and I just hope that the Government are satisfied when they see the outcomes.

AI and creativity can work together. I gave an example of that to the hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Alison Bennett). We have all been encouraged to think that there is a divergence between the position of those in the creative sector, such as artists, and the position of those who are involved in the tech sector and, in particular, AI. There should be an approach that works for everyone involved. The AI companies know that our content is immensely valuable. They refuse to pay for anything at present, not because they do not understand the value but because they have spotted an opportunity to hoodwink Governments around the world into believing that they should not have to pay for an essential resource.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I completely agree. The hon. Gentleman has stated the case: in order to enforce the law, we have to know who is breaking it.

There are all sorts of legal actions already under way, but this issue is about the extent to which scraping is going on. I agree with the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on the importance of newspapers and the press. The press face the particular problem of retrieval-augmented generation—a phrase I did not think I would necessarily be introducing—which is the use of live data, rather than historic data; if historic data is used, it often produces the wrong results. The big tech companies therefore rely on retrieval-augmented generation, which means using current live data—that which is the livelihood of the press. It is absolutely essential for publishers that they should know when their material is being used and that they should have the ability to license it or not, as they choose.

[John McDonnell]

The issue the right hon. Gentleman is addressing is the immediacy of the threat within the journalistic sector at the moment. I missed the opening remarks by both Front Benchers because I was in the debate on the personal independence payment, but I am sure my hon. Friend the Minister was as eloquent as ever in advocating for the Government amendments; he is a very persuasive fellow. However, those amendments are merely about publishing a report in 12 months’ time—that is all. There will be parts of the journalistic sector that will no longer exist in 12 months’ time as a result of this legislation.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I completely agree. I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity in wanting proper close examination, but this matter is urgent. New clause 2 and the associated measures simply state the law as it currently stands and give rights owners the essential ability to know when their material is being used, so that they can choose whether they wish to license it, and, if they do not, to take action against its use.

There is only one other point I want to raise today, as a number of speeches have been made in this debate that have very eloquently set out the case for each of the new clauses, including by the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Harpenden and Berkhamsted (Victoria Collins), and indeed by the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage). For the other concern that I want to raise, the Minister will need to put his other hat back on for a moment. Earlier in the day, he was speaking as the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism about the threat from the possibility of tariffs on the film industry. Obviously, we are concerned about the general question of US tariffs, and there is talk about trying to achieve a trade deal—in the President’s words, a “beautiful trade deal”—which would mean that the UK was protected. However, we are told that one of the prices that could be attached to such a deal could be relieving the burden of regulation on tech companies.

I am afraid that we know how the tech companies define burdensome regulation. In their view, copyright is a burdensome regulation, not a legal obligation or moral right of rightsholders. I hope the Minister will make it clear that we will not sacrifice the rights of creative industries and copyright owners in order to obtain a trade agreement and that, at the same time, we will not dilute other, very important digital legislation, such as the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024, which I understand is also potentially on the table.

I will not speak any longer, because the case has already been made. I will say only to the Minister that although it is clear that new clauses 2 to 6 command quite a lot of support on both sides of the House, I have no doubt that the Government will defeat them if they choose to do so tonight. However, he will be aware that they were originally made in the House of Lords, and he may find it harder if that House chooses to push the amendments through. I would not like to be back here next year once again trying to put through a data Bill because this one has failed.

Intellectual Property: Artificial Intelligence

John McDonnell Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd April 2025 Westminster Hall

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I am the secretary of the National Union of Journalists parliamentary group and have worked with Equity through the Performance Alliance and the Musicians’ Union for the last 25 years. I just want to get on the record the union perspective. As other Members have said, often in these debates the workers have been portrayed as luddites. It is quite the reverse; it is the workers who are creating these mechanisms.

As hon. Members have said, all that the trade unionists are asking for is for their rights to be protected—protected through collective bargaining, which is the mechanism that we have used for over a century for negotiations between the trade unions and the trade associations. The request is straightforward: that copyright law should be respected. The hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Frith), who secured the debate, eloquently and comprehensively set out that that law is actually not unclear or disputed—it exists. The simple rule is that if someone wants to use someone else’s material, they must secure a licence with the rights holder. As a result, through that collective bargaining mechanism, we can protect everybody in future.

[Ms Billington]

Copyright is often enforced by people who have licensing departments to enforce it, but smaller creatives, such as many in my constituency, find it extremely difficult to enforce copyright as it currently stands. That is one reason why we should use this opportunity to strengthen our copyright law to protect those low-paid workers.

[John McDonnell]

That is exactly right. One of the key issues raised by the hon. Member for Bury North is that lack of transparency, because people are not even aware that their stuff is being used until a later date, and then they are outraged. The role of Government is to ensure that they can enforce that the AI being developed is compliant with the regulations. In addition to that, as has been mentioned, the Information Commissioner has made very clear the role of GDPR and how it applies in such cases, and that the issue is about ensuring, from Government, that there is proper enforcement.

The simple message from this debate to the Minister is to just drop the Government’s proposed text and data exception. Several hon. Members have made it clear that nobody has discovered an effective opt-out mechanism that is applicable at this time—maybe some time in the future, but certainly not in the immediate future.

The other issue is that the performers’ rights framework needs to be updated now. That demand has come from virtually every trade union, and other bodies representing individual artists as well. That is the debate we should be having—about how we could update and improve that framework, and about enforcing existing GDPR.

One of the briefings that I saw said that this country is a gold mine of creativity and creative content. Well, at the moment, there is a gold rush on. It is a wild west out there, and the people benefiting are the big US tech companies. I do not want to push the analogy too far, but we need a sheriff. That is the role of Government; the Government should not be taking us backwards rather than moving us forwards.

I hope that the Minister leaves this debate with a full understanding of the tenor not just of what is needed, but of the cross-party strength of feeling. We need the Government to intervene positively to protect people’s rights and to protect that gold mine of creativity in this country.