Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Julian Smith and Richard Fuller

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

I will speak in favour of the two amendments relating to clause 14 that stand in my name. We have heard many legal arguments today. I am not a lawyer by training, so I have listened as intently as I can. My background is in business, and I draw the House’s attention to my continuing interests.

The Minister did an excellent job of portraying the middle path that she is taking with the legislation. I intervened on her to say that many business people feel that Parliament and politicians are out of touch with the realities of their day-to-day business. In some cases, their voice is not heard loudly enough. My amendments deal with one area where there is further that the Minister could go.

[Julian Smith]

My hon. Friend says that the public feel that this place is sometimes out of touch. From what he has heard from Opposition Members, would he say that Labour is anti-business and completely out of touch with entrepreneurs?

[Richard Fuller]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. All of us are aware that the Labour party has trouble understanding aspiration and even more trouble in rewarding aspiration. I am sure that Opposition Members will reflect deeply on the point that he has made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s perspective, but the Minister made quite clear her belief that there is sufficient evidence and support for the Government’s measures. Many of us think that they will go quite some way towards providing what businesses and employees would see as a reasonable and fair way to make efficient changes in the procedures for dismissal, dealing with unfair dismissal and tribunals.

I wish to focus on clause 14 and my amendments to it. Amendment 58 would delete the clause entirely, and amendment 59 would apply its principles only to businesses outside the micro-business sector—those that have more than 10 employees. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, has given a number of the justifications for doing that both in Committee and today. First, there is the principle that involving the Government in a dispute between an employer and an employee may complicate the achievement of a settlement between those two parties. It is difficult to understand the a priori reason why a Government should try to achieve a take, because as he made clear, we should be trying to ensure that employers pay the amount for which they are responsible to an employee who has been aggrieved by a dismissal. I listened to the Minister’s comments, but my concern is that the clause will provide additional complexity in the process.

As the Minister indicated, the clause will also create an imbalance between the employee and the employer, and we are not sure how that will play out under the new regime. I hope that if the Minister will not accept my amendments today, she will at least agree to examine how the changes play out, and perhaps consider whether the issue of financial penalties should be reviewed in future.

[Julian Smith]

It is worth recording that every business representative group in Britain is concerned about the clause, for many of the reasons that my hon. Friend has given.

[Richard Fuller]

I thank my hon. Friend very much for that intervention.

Economic Growth and Employment

Debate between Julian Smith and Richard Fuller

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate that, and I shall continue to listen intently to all the hon. Gentleman says.

The challenge that this country faces to restore growth is immense. It needs good ideas from both sides of the House and full commitment to the task. On that point, may I say gently to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is a noble individual and a good gentleman, that sometimes people feel that commitment may not be there 100% of the time from the Department, and that is a commitment to the role of the free market and business. It is as though we have at times a literary equivalent of Dr Cable and Mr Hyde. There is one part of the personality of the Secretary of State that embraces the idea of business and likes the approach of free markets, and then there is the other side of the personality that likes to hang out with a bunch of people on a camping holiday outside a well-known church musing on the merits of capitalism.

[Julian Smith]

Just to correct my hon. Friend slightly, this Government have done more than the previous Government did in 13 years on deregulation and freeing up British business. We must not lose sight of that.

[Richard Fuller]

That is absolutely true, but the challenge that we face is more immense because of 13 years of over-regulation by the previous Government, and because of the challenge of the international community. From the Secretary of State’s announcements today, I know that the sunshine side of his personality is more to the fore, and that he will demonstrate a strong and full commitment to the hard work that entrepreneurs and business leaders are putting in around the country.

I encourage the Secretary of State to take action on three further areas. First, I encourage him to work more strongly with the Treasury on ideas for credit that work for all sizes of businesses. Although there is a lot of emphasis on trying to make the banks a useful conduit of finance to small businesses, that is not working for very small businesses. Please can we look at alternative measures? Can we look again at tax relief for debt financing for our micro-businesses? For the first time, can we consider peer-to-peer lending organisations such as Funding Circle, which provides an alternative way of raising funds for small businesses? It is not enough to come forward with another policy that relies on the banks doing something tomorrow that they are not doing today.

Secondly, I encourage the Secretary of State to look at the sector that is the biggest drag on our economy, namely the bureaucratic state. If we want to create a growing economy, we cannot ignore such a substantial part of it. I encourage him to ask other Ministers to enlist our public servants and bureaucrats in the task of identifying growth. Every single day, the employees of small businesses in my constituency work very hard to create growth and the conditions for profitability, and they tell me that they are not getting the support they need from either their local government or their national Government. We need a culture change in our Government Departments. They need to say: “Our primary task—our national mission—is to support the growth of enterprise and business. What can we do every day to help people to achieve that?”

Will the Secretary of State also look at the opportunity provided by social enterprises? The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who is the Minister with responsibility for the civil society, is doing a lot of work with social enterprises to free them from some of the burdens of regulation. Will the Secretary of State have his Department look at how the power of social entrepreneurs can be brought to bear on our public services and public sector so that they can be more productive? Social enterprises are a fantastic way to encourage growth.

Will the Secretary of State consider using Parliament to review outdated statutory instruments, laws and regulations that are a bureaucratic drag on productivity and business? Rather than using Parliament to pass new laws, we could use it to scrap existing ones. I am sure we can find time for that.

Thirdly and finally—this underlies all our efforts to create growth—I benefited in my career from two fundamental pushes on growth in our economy: building out the global supply chain and the consequential growth of financial services, which gave people the ability to buy goods and services much more cheaply than they would have got them had we relied only on a national economy; and the growth of information technology. The next source of fantastic growth is likely to be when households in India and China want to buy our goods. But that is not here today. That is not going to be here in the next five years. What we can do in that period of time is have a national campaign led by the Secretary of State to create an entrepreneurial society recognising that there are different motivations for being an entrepreneur. Not only do entrepreneurs want to make money; people are motivated by spiritural objectives. Let that be the mission and legacy of our Secretary of State.