Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Monday 19th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

As we have pointed out, those transitioning from legacy benefits will get the additional two weeks of housing benefit and, with the new measures announced, two weeks of either their employment and support allowance, their jobseeker’s allowance or their income support, as well as access to advance payments from day one. The key thing is that this system mirrors the world of work. For the vast majority of people, their aim is to get into work, and in work they would expect to be paid in arrears. They would have to deal with that at the same time as going back into work, whereas now the personalised work coach can provide support by giving them access to advance benefits and pointing them to the support offered by Citizens Advice and our wider universal credit support network. It is about providing that support as people prepare themselves for the world of work.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

12. What proportion of tribunal appeals for (a) personal independence payment and (b) universal credit have been successful in 2018; and what assessment she has made of the implications for her policies of those appeals having been successful.

Holiday Pricing

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Monday 24th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson]

Like Bournemouth, which is a fantastic place to go on holiday, my hon. Friend’s intervention was fantastic. I am coming to that point in a bit. I have had many enjoyable holidays in Bournemouth.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) for giving way and to the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for his comment. We support greater flexibility for different authorities, but can we ensure that Derbyshire gets the warmest months?

[Justin Tomlinson]

Derbyshire is also a fantastic place to go on holiday. Let us champion every constituency. I think that we are on safe ground, with cross-party support, when championing the UK tourism industry.

We need to be 100% sure that there are not some unscrupulous operators, but predominantly we need to focus on the two other areas of discretion and flexibility. On discretion, there is already confusion among a lot of parents. A lot of parents have contacted me to say, “We have triggered fines. We feel that our decision to take our children out of school was justified, but the school came back and said, ‘Under the new rules, there is absolutely no discretion; you will be fined’.” As a Government representative, I have almost felt obliged to apologise on behalf of the Government.

At one school that has made the new rules clear, the chair of governors said, “No. Actually, there is discretion. We, through the pastoral team, will look at those parents whose children have excellent attendance records and are achieving well in school and we will look at why they might be taken out of school, for a funeral, say, compared to a holiday without educational benefits, and it would be weighed up.” Clearly, there is confusion and that needs to be resolved.

There is the assumption that there is pressure from Ofsted because it looks at attendance records when rating a school. If a school decides to say that, because of cost and work pressures, it will allow a good level of discretion, its attendance records do not look good. That also needs to be considered, because that would be a disincentive for a school to apply common-sense discretion.

I think that all hon. Members would agree that, perhaps, discretion should apply where children are doing well and where parents work during school holidays. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), who is a champion for the armed forces, highlights one career, but I am sure that there many others, in all our constituencies, where parents can take their children on holiday only during school time. We have all noticed the cost of peak holidays.

There are some challenges. I have been contacted by teachers who say that they do not like being in the firing line and having discretion, because if they feel that the child should not be given time off they are the ones who are blamed. Sometimes there are reasons why that should not be so. I have also been told that, in the past, when there was discretion about 10 days or 10 sessions, some parents felt that it was an automatic right to have that every year, even if the child was struggling. There was never a case of a parent saying, “You’re absolutely right. I’ll now withdraw that request.” It would create heated discussion. If we are to consider discretions, clear guidelines, which were suggested earlier, are an absolute must.

We must also consider teachers, because although discretion can help pupils and parents, the teachers would not have discretion to take time off during terms. That is not necessarily a complete, one-size-fits-all solution.

I am a big fan of flexibility in this regard. One big suggestion is flexible term times. About a year ago I was contacted by a resident, Nicki Mitchell, on this issue. I suggested flexible term times and was asked, “What happens if you have a child in a primary school and another at a secondary school, and they have different term times? That will make it even harder.” A number of residents have contacted me and said that such flexibility exists in Europe and that it is done by county or region. We might decide that the south-east goes a couple of weeks earlier and the south-west goes a couple of weeks later. However, in Europe it is done in rotation, so it is not always the south-west or south-east first. Not only would that help parents and children, but it would probably help the tourism industry, because almost regardless of what it charges it can fill up at peak time, but the rest of year it faces a real challenge. Spreading that across the year would be helpful.

If we cannot manage flexible term times, another suggestion is extending the school year by two weeks and allowing everybody automatically two weeks’ worth of discretion throughout the year. That would probably be incredibly unpopular with teachers, who would then face an extra two weeks, but I thought that I would mention it.

Small Businesses

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Thursday 28th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I very much love businesses, so I will send some love to my hon. Friend’s constituency.

It is great that businesses are suggesting the areas of red tape that need to be looked at, because they are very much at the coal face. Removing two regulations for every one introduced is a real challenge, but the initiative has certainly been welcomed by businesses in my constituency.

Several Members have talked about opening up local authority procurement, which is worth about £4.4 billion a year, and the Government have the commendable aim of getting SME participation in that to about 25%. My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), who has had to leave the Chamber, has got hold of some of the forms that small businesses have to fill in when bidding for such contracts. I know that, when I ran a business, it simply was not worth the hassle.

I also very much welcome the increase in the annual investment allowance from £25,000 to £250,000. One problem that we identified was the fact that, for the first time in living memory, businesses had more money in their current accounts than they were choosing to borrow, because they were worried about uncertainty in the market. Increasing the allowance is a brilliant way to encourage businesses to start unlocking some of that money, which will drive forward growth.

Cutting corporation tax always brings a cheer from Conservative Members. Although Labour says that it supports business, it is telling that that support seems to vanish as soon as a business makes a profit. I also welcome the extension of small business rate relief.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman talks about corporation tax. Will he tell the House the rate of corporation tax when Labour came to power in 1997, and what it was when we left office in 2010?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that, by 2015, we will have the lowest corporation tax market in the G8. That is what businesses are talking about, and I very much hope that the hon. Gentleman will join us in supporting that aim.

Many Members have highlighted the need to look at business rates. Greater minds than mine will solve the dilemma, but it is important to recognise that the world is changing. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) mentioned Amazon’s advantages over a traditional high street retailer because of the business rates that it pays. We must recognise that the world is changing and take that into account if we are to achieve a fair business rates system. The 27,000 business mentors are also crucial—I will come back to that subject in a moment—and the enterprise zones and the regional growth fund are kick-starting growth in key areas, which is most welcome.

Staying with the good things, I know that the Minister is particularly excited about the request that I am about to make—it is one that I make repeatedly—and that he is absolutely going to deliver on it. We as a Government are doing many good things, but business people are by their nature extremely busy and, all too often, these good schemes simply pass them by. However, the one thing that they cannot avoid is their bills, and every year they are sent a business rates bill. Even if they have nothing to pay, they are sent a bill telling them how much they would have had to pay but for the fact that the Government are allowing them not to do so. We should be communicating all the Government’s schemes through that mailer. The taxpayer has already paid for the mail, so let us include with it information on all the things that we are encouraging businesses to sign up for, and particularly on the advantages of taking on apprentices and of working with UKTI to develop exports.

I want briefly to focus on championing young entrepreneurs. I was the only one of the 350 students on my business degree course who went on to set up their own business. We all arrived at university keen to do just that, but we had entrepreneurial flair and risk-taking talked out of us. I obviously was not paying enough attention, because I ended up running my own business. The Government help to fund an organisation called the National Association of College and University Entrepreneurs, which encourages young people to take up practical, real-life opportunities for running a business. I have met a number of the young people who have taken advantage of those opportunities and who are now going on to be part of the next generation of wealth generators.

We need to look at what happens in business degrees. Along with all my fellow students, I was given a placement job in the corporate environment, rather than having the opportunity to test running my own business. We could use spare space at a university to run a retail business—that is very apt, given my forthcoming Westminster Hall debate. We could also consider whether part of a placement year could be spent running a business, as that might allow us to encourage a few more of those potential young entrepreneurs to take the step towards that.

We can also do a lot more for people before they go to university. For people who want to go to university, the UCAS system is in place—the conveyor belt is there. People choose their course and, if they get their grades, they head off to university. If people want to be an apprentice, they can look at the fantastic websites available, see what type of thing they would like to be an apprentice in, and go forward to the interviews. However, if someone wants to start their own business, it is pretty much up to them to work out how to do that, so we need to do a lot more to get those 20,000 business mentors to young people.

We have to celebrate schemes such as the Young Enterprise challenge, but we need to ensure that they are not just a one-off opportunity for enjoyment. I took part when I was at school—we worked for a week, made quite a bit of money and really enjoyed it. I recently did something with Swindon college students whereby we got stalls in the local market—a tough trading environment. Seven teams were each given £10 of seed money, and all the money raised on the day went to charity. We raised about £800 for the Prospect hospice, but the crucial bit was that we did not have mentors just at the beginning; we had them at the end.

One lady called Jessica ran a cake stall. Millions of people think about running such a stall, but she realised that the market had an older customer base, so she set up a 1950s-themed cake stall. She made more than £100 on the day. She realised that she had the customer service ability, the skills and the innovation to set up her own business, and now that she has finished at college, she has set up the Little Lemon & Poppy Bakery. We made sure that mentors were in place to help to guide her after she used her initial burst of enthusiasm and went on to do that. I ask the Minister to do all that he can to encourage young people. They have the energy and the enthusiasm, so let us make sure they are a key part of that next generation of wealth generators.

Adult Literacy and Numeracy

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Thursday 10th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

That is a brilliant intervention with fortune-telling skills, as that is exactly what I was about to say. Numeracy is not just about applying for jobs—it is about confidence, about being a savvy consumer and about dealing with things such as payday lending. We have had several debates on this and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) will also touch on that issue—although to be fair, most Treasury Ministers would struggle to calculate the APR on payday lending. We live in a complex world with marketing messages, and my hon. Friend and I are working on a paper at the moment about how consumers are not empowered. The markets are in control because consumers are not equipped to make the right decisions.

I want to talk about three areas in which we have opportunities to help people—financial education, work in schools and using libraries as hubs. On financial education, we have had an exceptionally successful cross-party campaign—235 MPs signed up—and I am delighted that as of September 2014 it will be a core part of the national curriculum. The key driver behind the campaign was the fact that 91% of people who get into financial difficulties say, “If only I had known better.” My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport pointed out that 50% of adults struggle with even primary maths skills, so it is no wonder that people get into financial difficulty. The campaign focused on four strands—schools, further education, higher education and the crucial vulnerable group, work on which is led by my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). That group is crucial because although we are bringing in the changes in schools, further education and higher education, some people will still slip through the net. The report will be published in the next couple of weeks and will contain important points for the Government to take up, so that we can ensure that the most vulnerable people are not missed out.

I am a big fan of the school reforms, which will drive up standards and include making grammar and spelling important in all exams; making mental arithmetic more important in primary schools; restricting the use of calculators; and upgrading maths in the curriculum. I was a maths fan in school, but I was in the minority, even though maths is incredibly important. The pupil premium is providing schools with opportunities to target resources to those most in need.

I had an inspiring visit to Seven Fields school in my constituency. As I have mentioned in previous debates, I had the honour of the Minister for Schools coming to visit after I had set out just how good the school is. To put it in context, it is in one of the top 5% most deprived areas and it was formerly a failing school. To give credit to the previous Government, money was provided to rebuild the school, which was the beginning of the process, but the fundamental changes came from the school reforms, which gave its inspirational head teacher the ability to make a real difference. Some 70% of the children are on the pupil premium and that money has been used—now that the class sizes have been almost halved to 17—to work with the community to get volunteers to come in and read one on one with the children. That has been done by providing a free Sunday roast on Wednesdays to the Penhill luncheon club, who work one on one with the children on reading and numeracy. It makes a huge difference.

Lately resources have been diverted to the nursery because, as the head teacher told the Minister for Schools and me, some of the children coming through have simply been abandoned in front of the television. Not only can they not walk, they have not even reached the first stages of crawling. They literally have to start again. When the children arrive at the school, they are 18 months behind the national average, but by the time they finish, they have caught up—giving those children opportunity.

Huge effort is put into selecting the best, most ambitious teachers, who want to go the extra mile to make a difference. We all know from our own time in schools how teachers who make the extra effort can make a huge difference. The school also provides a constructive and positive environment, including children taking their shoes off and treating it like their own homes. They also have opportunities to make visits beyond school to do things that they would not otherwise have the chance to do.

The head teacher still has a wish list of things that would make a difference. She feels that school holidays undo the great work that is done. Some of the children are upset that they will not be able to come into school. Before teachers start thinking that I am advocating a 52-week term, I should say that the idea is to open up the schools in holidays for summer camps on sport, literacy or numeracy, or for the Scouts and other volunteer organisations to use. PFI schools often have expensive charges for outside groups, which removes the opportunity for constructive work. The head teacher thinks that some of the children benefit from the almost family environment in the school, and should perhaps be held back beyond primary school age—perhaps up to 14 or when they are in a position to go to the local FE college or start an apprenticeship—because they need that sort of environment, perhaps because of their family background. As they go off to the traditional secondary schools, the influences and temptations away from the right path prove too great without family support—and the school can be a substitute for that.

The final, and perhaps contentious, item is the need for performance-related pay for teachers. My father was a teacher, as were my grandmother and grandfather, and many of my friends are teachers. We need to provide incentives for the very best teachers who make a real difference to people. I do not see why they should not be rewarded financially, because in any other profession they would be.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I wish to explore how the hon. Gentleman thinks that would work in practice. My son is doing a GCSE in business studies with two different teachers. If one is good and one is bad, how would we work out who got the pay rise and who got the sack?

[Justin Tomlinson]

That is a good point, and the key is that I would not do that, because I am a politician and what do I know? It would be the head teachers who decided. We should entrust them to run schools like any other organisation. The head teacher at this school was waxing lyrical about the inspirational teachers with extra enthusiasm and energy, and she should have absolute freedom to ensure that she has the very best teachers for those children from very challenging backgrounds who do not have the luxury of private education and who rely on this single chance in life.

The parents also need to be engaged. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport mentioned the role of parents. The school I am talking about has parental contracts. If parents want their child to go to the school, they have to play their part and engage with the school, to ensure that it is not only in school hours that the children benefit from the opportunities provided

I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on libraries, and I think libraries have a big role to play in adult literacy, which might simply be by opening up the doors to volunteer groups in the evenings and when the library is closed. The summer reading challenge has made a huge difference in getting children to read six books over the summer, when previously they might not have read a single book—look at the number of adults who have not read a book in the last 12 months. Perhaps jobcentres could utilise the libraries to provide opportunities, even for those who need to start from scratch. I have advocated in other debates that we should open up school sports facilities for free to organisations that provide constructive, energetic activities for young people, and a similar principle could be applied to libraries.

The situation is a disgrace. We have to show urgency in our attempts to make a difference. People have one chance in life and, as all hon. Members will make clear, they are being robbed of it. That is a desperately poor situation.

Self-Employment

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter, even if only for 10 minutes. It has been an excellent debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) on obtaining it and on his speech.

Like some other hon. Members, I have run my own business—twice: the first time was at the back end of the last century, when I set up an IT recruitment firm; subsequently in 2005 I launched a rugby product business, Club Rugby, which I continued to run until I was elected. As someone who has been on that journey twice, I know very well the different motivations for heading towards self-employment. In my case, it was inspiration on one occasion and desperation on another. In fact, many great businesses have been created from fledgling inspirations caused by the desperation of those trying to feed a family and keep a roof over their heads in tough times. Certainly, some will still thrive in these most desperate of times. However, the fact that some will still come through, and that the strongest may still thrive and survive, is not a reason for the Government not to do everything in their power to support people in all walks of life and all parts of the country to take that first brave step and put their name above the door.

One of the lessons of the recent past is that we must create an environment that gives the greatest number of new business people an opportunity to be a successful business owner. Why would any Government not want to do that? Therefore I particularly welcome a debate in which the hon. Member for Watford expressed his frustration at what he sees as the unglamorous image of running a business in Britain today. Of course, he is right to say that we all—politicians, school teachers, careers advisers, business leaders, media figures and trade union leaders—have a responsibility to promote the vital importance of new start-ups and small businesses in creating the growth we need to get the economy moving again. For that reason I welcome television programmes such as “The Apprentice” and “Dragons’ Den”, which for all their flaws at least tend to get young people to see business in a sexier light.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Toby Perkins]

I am afraid that there is not time, if I am going to leave time for the Minister.

“The Apprentice” in particular also has a welcome focus on the importance of sales techniques and ability, which is a vital and intrinsic part of business success, which the nation has neglected for too long, and which I want to promote through the Labour party’s policy review. I started my first job in sales at the age of 17. The old adage that until someone sells something in a business nothing happens has never been truer than it is today. As part of the Labour policy review programme Nigel Doughty, a tremendously successful business investor, is chairing our small business task force. Within that policy review process, he hosted a session on high-growth businesses. There were many contributors to that session from across the business spectrum, but one of the key defining facts revealed during it was that about 7% of all businesses will go on to become high-growth firms, irrespective of market sector or geographical location. The key to getting more high-growth firms coming out of the bottom of the funnel is to get more going into the top.

Of course, we have been here before. Starting in 1997, Labour’s new deal programme was the most successful back-to-work programme in British history. The self-employment programme was the most successful part of it. Some 70% of the people who started on it went into business, and 81% of those businesses were still trading three years later. Moreover, they were employing, on average, an extra 1.6 people each, meaning that for every 100 people who started on the programme, 112 were employed three years later as a result. That may be the first and only back-to-work programme ever to have a greater than 100% success rate.

The key features of the success of that programme that are not being duplicated by the current Government’s back-to-work programme are the special provision with a ring-fenced pot of new deal money specifically for the self-employment option and the financial cushion in the early stages of self-employment, which was so important in giving new business people an opportunity to test trading as a viable career option. In that context, the void in face-to-face business advice left in the absence of Business Link is deeply worrying.

It is a key aim of the Government to encourage the unemployed to look towards self-employment as a viable career option, and we entirely support them in that general aspiration. However, we must also be aware of the dangers of false self-employment. Bogus self-employment has rocketed in the past decade, particularly in the construction industry. Workers are often told that they will be taken on only if they agree to declare themselves self-employed, thus giving up hard-won employee entitlements such as national insurance contributions, and sick and holiday pay. Recognition of the unique challenges that the unemployed face in setting up new firms or becoming sole traders must lead to specific actions to support them into self-employment. The unemployed are less likely to have the cash to enable them to set up in business, and less likely to be able to borrow money towards start-up costs. They are likely to be less able to cope with the early cash flow shortages that are often inevitable for fledgling businesses.

As a Member of Parliament, I am a publicly employed representative of the people, who earns about £64,000 a year. Yet if I decide to write an article, provide advice or even take on a directorship to provide me with extra income, I am legally entitled to do so. However, if an unemployed person on £65 a week wants to see whether they can make a go of a business as a painter or hairdresser and does a few jobs before coming off benefits, they are committing a criminal offence. In the new deal, there was an opportunity to recognise the fact that the informal economy plays an important part in helping people to move from unemployment to self-employment.

On the new deal programme, the test trading aspect entitled people who were unemployed to enter the world of self-employment with a six-month financial cushion between leaving benefits and setting up. Subsequently the tax credit system replaced that financial cushion. Originally there was hope that the universal credit would also be an effective tool. However, as it is currently structured it works on the narrow basis of a set number of hours and set earnings, which does not fit easily with the self-employment model. Under Labour’s policy review, we are investigating an enterprise credit that would recognise the flexibility of income derived from self-employment and replace that all-important cushion to give new start-ups the security that they need.

I want to touch on a couple of speeches by other hon. Members. The hon. Member for Watford talked about the sleepless nights that often come with running one’s own business—and, indeed, we are led to believe, with being a Conservative Member of Parliament. He expanded on his wife’s role and the lack of help that she provides him with on those occasions, which she may wish to discuss with him at a future date. He also talked about children who want to go into fields such as advertising or marketing, but who do not see setting up their own business as a viable or exciting option. He rightly mentioned the huge social value in setting up a business and going on to provide employment to other members of the community.

The hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) supported Labour’s policy on a national insurance holiday for micro-businesses that take on a new member of staff. He was also right behind us on pushing the Government to take forward the late payments directive. We thank him for that support. I hope that he will be successful in persuading other hon. Members to be equally enlightened.

The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) shared my concern that the “mentors me” website may not provide enough support for new businesses, and she expressed the importance of that. The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) said how important it is to celebrate entrepreneurship and highlight people’s success. The hon. Members for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) and for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) warned us not to give a sugar-coated view of the ease of running a business. In doing that, however, I feel that the hon. Member for Nuneaton added to the myth that Britain has a particularly difficult regulatory system. The reality discovered by the World Bank is that Britain is the easiest place to set up a new business anywhere in the EU and the fourth easiest place in the world. It is important that hon. Members speak up for all the positive aspects of running one’s own business and do not exaggerate the difficulties.

There is a broader context to the discussion. When the Government have choked off the recovery with their anti-growth policies, they cannot seriously expect the private sector to provide the growth that we so desperately need. That is why we have put growth at the heart of our five-point plan and why we called for a temporary cut in VAT; it is why we supported the call by the Federation of Small Businesses for a cut to a rate of 5% for VAT on home improvements; and it is why we are calling for a national insurance holiday for micro-businesses to boost employment at small firms.

People want more than gimmicks from Government. They want a genuine programme for growth. Where the Government deliver that, they will have our support. We recognise the vital role that self-employment can play in delivering growth, creating jobs, reducing unemployment and, most of all, giving people back their pride and their sense of belief. They need have no doubt whatever about Labour’s commitment. After all, we got Britain working for itself before.

Youth Service

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Weir. [Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr Rosindell, you don’t even look like Mr Weir.

This has been an excellent and thought-provoking debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing the debate and on her contribution, and I will reflect on some of the other contributions.

One point that my hon. Friend made particularly powerfully was about the value that youth work provides in generating money into our communities. The fact that for every £1 spent on youth services, another £8 of voluntary activity is generated is a powerful statistic. She also reflected on the national citizen service, and whether it should be seen as an alternative to youth service provision. The general mood of the debate was that it should not.

I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments to the question raised by my hon. Friend during Education questions:

“As youth services nationally have already been cut by 30 to 40%...how will the Secretary of State ensure the quality of youth service provision in future?”

The Minister responded:

“The hon. Lady underlines the great importance of engaging the young people of this country as proper citizens, which is why we are carrying forward the national citizen service programme,”—[Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 643-4.]

To an impartial observer, that sounds rather as if the national citizen service was the replacement for youth services.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said that cuts to the youth service are a false economy. That is a powerful and central point that we should all reflect on. Making such cuts to youth services will lead to additional costs in policing, social work, education, health services and fighting crime in our communities. If we do not get it right, we will be paying for the cuts to the youth service time and time again.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm exactly what level of funding the Labour party would provide and how they would pay for it?

[Toby Perkins]

I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s contribution in more detail. We had a Budget in 2010, and people could see from the direction of travel taken by the Labour Government over previous years just how much of a priority we placed on youth services. The improvement in youth services is clear as a result of that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West also said that she did not want us to return to the bleak days of the 1980s. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) talked about the big society as a political convenience. She is in good company because the Minister himself is completely unclear about what the big society means. He says:

“The trouble is that most people don’t know what the Big Society really means, least of all the unfortunate ministers who have to articulate it.”

We look forward to him attempting to do that in a moment. He says:

“What actually is the Big Society, let alone is it good or not? Exactly how big is it now or is it going to be?”

I can answer that question: it is getting smaller by the moment. However, I look forward to him perhaps attempting to articulate better in the future than he has been able to in the past what the big society is and what the contribution of youth services should be to the big society.

The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) made a thoughtful contribution, which started well when she said that prevention was better than cure. She focused on how important it was for us to take serious action on NEETs. She may be aware of the piece in The Times Educational Supplement with the sub-heading “Experts predict rise in Neets as young people are left without support following local authority raids”. It stated:

“Local authorities are slashing Connexions budgets”

and youth services,

“raising fears that young people out of work or education will be left without support.”

In raising the initial question, the hon. Lady was on exactly the right lines. It is just a shame that she did not follow that through, but decided instead to divert us to the line we heard a number of times that the issue is the quality of the service, rather than the money. It is deeply disingenuous for us as politicians and for those in government to talk about the level of cuts that local authorities will see and say that they must not cut safeguarding—the Minister has already told them that, and the Prime Minister said that they should not cut the voluntary sector—but that it is totally up to local authorities what decisions they make. Some responsibility must be taken at central Government level. If cuts of 27% in local authority funding are to be made, youth services in particular will be affected, but services will be affected across the board. We cannot keep saying to local authorities, “Well, it’s your decision what you choose to cut.” The Government have to take some responsibility for that.

The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) had obviously given youth services considerable thought and he reflected positively on his experiences as a councillor and the importance of youth services in that area, but he repeated the idea that the cut in funding should not necessarily lead to a cut in services. That is the elephant in the room that we need to be honest about. If youth service professionals are to take us seriously in this debate, we need to be honest about the fact that they will see very substantial cuts. I think that 95% of local authority youth services say that their budgets for providing services to young people in their area are being cut. That will make a real difference to the level of service provided.

The hon. Gentleman had some good ideas about how school and council buildings could be used more effectively, but we must be realistic. The big cost for youth services is actually for the people employed within them, so yes, we can use buildings more effectively, but there is still a cost attached. We ought to be realistic about the cost attached to improving those services. The hon. Gentleman’s ideas about taking people on trips and so on all have a cost attached to them.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Just to clarify, opening up those facilities was as much for external organisations, whether those are scout groups, dance groups, sports clubs or whatever.

[Toby Perkins]

Okay. Certainly the voluntary sector will play a very important role. As someone who has been involved in youth sport coaching for the last six or seven years, I know how important the role of the voluntary sector and sports organisations is and completely support that. That is why I have been so horrified by the cuts that the same Minister has been making to the school sports partnership. That was a very important way of engaging children in sport, which led to their involvement in sports clubs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) reflected on the interconnectivity of all these services. That is a central point that we need to consider. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) reflected on a lifetime dedicated to youth work and youth services and made a thoughtful contribution. When he reflected on the success of youth services in their contribution to the education of people who then go on to develop themselves further and become mature students, he made a very powerful point. He also reflected on the importance of street engagement in terms of youth services. That is another of the central areas in which the national citizen service will be no replacement for youth services, because the national citizen service is a universal service and the activity that it involves will take place over a very short period of a young person’s life, whereas youth services are there every single day of the year, providing a service, particularly to people from more deprived communities, out on the streets. It is a service that they have to engage with; they have to make that contribution.

When the hon. Gentleman said that councils do not have to cut the voluntary sector, he was repeating the line that we have been hearing, which does not take into account the serious level of cuts that there will be for local authorities. Inevitably, when so much of local authorities’ money is already tied up in contracts with external providers, the cost of redundancies and so on, the voluntary sector is an easy area for them to cut. The reality that we all recognise, and that the voluntary sector is very worried about, is the amount of cuts that there will be.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) focused on the fact that the cuts will not spare youth services. I put it to him that in fact the cuts will specifically focus more on an area such as youth services than on some of the statutory areas, such as safeguarding, which councils will be very sensitive about cutting.

I think that all of us, right across the House, would support the general ethos of a big society and the general principle behind it. The Minister is right to say that it still defies an exact description, but we all have an idea of what we think it ought to mean.

The lack of co-ordination between different organisations has implications for how we keep our children safe. Safeguarding is an area that many councils will be protecting, but safeguarding often applies after the problem has been identified. Youth workers play a central role in identifying children who are at risk and in making referrals. There are many cross-referrals from youth services, police services and adult social services to child social services. If those services are diminished, the number of referrals will reduce and many children will never be identified as having problems.

I would like the Minister to respond to the question about whether he agrees that youth services are an integral part of our education system. Does he still see a central role for youth services in our education system? Does he accept that local authority funding is the glue that holds a wide range of youth services together? We currently spend about £100 per year per young person. How much does the Minister think that we will spend in 2011-12? Does he see youth work as a professional role? Does he recognise the professional qualifications that youth workers have now and how important they are?