Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Kelvin Hopkins and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kelvin Hopkins]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who made a superb speech and hit lots of buttons.

I am speaking briefly at the end of this debate basically to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and his comprehensive, substantial proposals for an alternative scheme. I have also signed his new clauses. I am not a tax lawyer—I am not a lawyer—or a tax expert, but I am angry about the fact that for decades we have failed to collect taxes that should go into the Exchequer and help those in our community and our society who need proper support, allowing the corporate world and the millionaires to get away with vast amounts of money that should rightfully be given to the Treasury.

The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said that HMRC would in effect be making its own laws. What about getting rid of a lot of the tax allowances, which are nonsense in any case, and making some of the things that are currently regarded as tax avoidance illegal by calling them tax evasion? Some of the things that are done should be regarded not just as neat ways of avoiding tax, but as crimes that should rightfully be prosecuted through HMRC and the courts. I take a much fiercer view. It is pathetic that successive Governments —and I mean successive Governments—have failed to grasp what needs to be done.

I will tell you some anecdotes, Mr Crausby. When I first entered the House, I went along to my local VAT office. The VAT officials there told me that they needed more staff and every extra member of staff collected five times more than their own salary, and that was just for VAT. I therefore wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and said, “We just need more staff in our VAT offices. There would be a net benefit to the Treasury because all the new members of staff would collect more than their salaries.” I got a letter back from an official—not from the Chancellor—that said, “We are trying to cut costs by reducing staffing,” which is utterly illogical. Reducing staffing means a net loss to the Treasury, not a net gain, and we have been going down that route ever since.

The savage staffing cuts in HMRC are quite appalling. Those in the tax offices that deal with the corporates—the big money—collect hundreds and possibly thousands of times more than their own salaries, if they are allowed to do the job and if they are properly supported and paid. I know from my connections with their union that they are constantly under stress and pressure, and in many cases they are not adequately remunerated. We want to give our tax offices enough staff to do the job, pay them properly and ensure that they have morale, so that they do the job on behalf of us all.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that also goes for working tax credits? When a family notify HMRC of a change in circumstances, their benefits—their working tax credits—are stopped and can be suspended for several weeks while they are reassessed, causing incredible hardship for families that are doing the right thing.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, people are now losing their jobs in all areas of the public services. The public services are suffering great stress and the people working in them are being demoralised, and I think that goes even for the senior civil service—I know that certain people at the end of the Chamber would possibly agree with me in that respect.

I must say that the Treasury’s attitude over some decades has been so lax that one has to suspect that it really believes that allowing all the corporates and millionaires to have their money will somehow trickle down and help the economy. That is the sort of economic nonsense that has got us into the mess we are in at the moment. What we should be doing is collecting the taxes and spending in the areas where it is needed.