Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

Let me preface my comments by saying that although I have a lot of respect for the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), I was personally offended by his comments, which exemplified the tone of the debate. The suggestion that opposition to the Bill is akin to being a white supremacist in Montgomery, Alabama in 1955 is absolute nonsense. Rosa Parks is a secular saint; she did not refuse to give up her seat on that bus for me to go to the back of the bus as a traditional Christian conservative who believes in marriage.

The fundamental question is what price equality and what price freedom? Nothing is as fundamental as that. I was disappointed by the frivolous comments made by the shadow Home Secretary, which showed no respect for the sanctity of marriage and no gravitas, as though this was a fun issue to debate, rather than 1,000 years of tradition that predates politics and Government. This is not a video from “You’ve Been Framed!”, but a matter of people’s sincere beliefs and theological convictions, which should have received more respect from a Front-Bench speaker.

We do not have to speculate about what might happen to Christians. One of the most peevish and mean-spirited acts of the last Parliament was the sexual orientation regulations of 2007, which forced out of business Catholic adoption agencies that made special efforts to help the most disabled, deserving and vulnerable children. Those agencies were put out of business, smashed on the altar of political correctness. Today, we are talking not about fairness and equality, but about a hierarchy of rights—“Your rights are more important than my rights.” Members who vote for the Bill should think carefully about that. They should look at themselves in the mirror and ask whether they want to be responsible for a Catholic teaching assistant being hounded from her office as a result of this Bill. That is not fantasy; it can happen. I believe that it will happen unless we do something about it, so I shall oppose the Bill tonight. That is the dark period that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) mentioned earlier. I make no apologies for section 28, but there have been dark periods on both sides, and the period following the introduction of those regulations was very poor.

Secondly, there is no mandate for the Bill. The Prime Minister specifically ruled it out and it was not in a manifesto or the coalition agreement. This is not about equality, because as we understand from the debate—no one has challenged this—same-sex marriages and different-sex marriages will not be equal as regards adultery and non-consummation.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jackson]

No, because I do not have time.

This is a major issue of civil liberties and the orthodox Christian tradition of marriage between a man and a woman. That is the important issue that we must consider. Specifically, we must examine this carte blanche approach—the suggestion that we should trust the Minister that the European Court of Human Rights will not intervene. Let me direct Members to the Evangelical Alliance briefing, which states:

“Protections for religious organisations will only hold as long as the European Court does not itself accept a redefinition of marriage. Given likely accumulation of cases of precedence to recognise same-sex marriage in member states (and to see any deviations from ‘marriage equality’ as discriminatory) and the ongoing questions about the UK’s relationship to the EU, it is clear that any guarantees of legal protection are limited in scope and at best short-term.”

The Bill is a Pandora’s box of endless litigation, offering division in society and setting one group against another. For that reason and for community cohesion, we must resist it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)]

I support the Bill, and I would like to compliment Members on the tone of the debate and on some of the exceptional speeches I have heard from both sides of the argument.

On the morning of 2 May 1997, I was watching TV amid the immense excitement of new Labour’s landslide. Of course, as a Conservative I was watching the news that my party had just been humiliated in one of its biggest defeats in electoral history. How had we gone from being a party with four electoral successes to become a party on the edge of political extinction? The reality is that some people were tired of us, and many hated us. There were also issues such as sleaze. My observation was that, despite the many great things we had done in government, society had moved on and we had not.

Thirteen years later, on the steps of No. 10, the Prime Minister recognised and generously acknowledged that in Labour’s time, the country had become a more open one. He was right to recognise that. The journey my party has gone on since 1997 involved rethinking some of the issues we faced—for example, the rhetoric of race and engaging with the black and ethnic minority community, single parenthood, disability, a commitment to higher education for all people and not just a minority, embracing the NHS, leadership on international development and, yes, a monumental confidence that we have shown in supporting the lesbian and gay community. All those testify to a modern Conservative party, now reflecting the values of modern Britain in ways that we could not have contemplated, let alone sympathised with, in 1997. I say that not because I am pursuing votes and constructing an argument around that, but because I want to see my party reflect the values of this country.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

If a majority of Conservative Members go through the No Lobby tonight or abstain, does that not show that what we have is a PR veneer rather than real change in the Conservative party?

[Kris Hopkins]

I do not agree with that. What it demonstrates is that a modern Conservative Prime Minister has put forward a really progressive idea, which we can support. Today we are on the road to equality—an idea promoted by a Conservative Prime Minister—fiercely debated by my party with significant challenge from within, and I would not expect anything different.

I have been contacted by about 120 people, the vast majority of whom asked me to oppose the Bill. I would like to thank most of them for giving me considered and thoughtful views on both sides of the argument. I have laid out my own case here today, but it is important to bear in mind that people of religious faith do not want Churches to be forced to marry people of the same sex. That point has arisen time and again in the debate, but I am confident that we have put the necessary safeguards in place. I want to make it clear to my constituents who have that fear that the Government have taken the issue seriously and are embarking on the right route.

We have debated this matter at great length, but all the polling evidence suggests that the vast majority of people out there in the real world support the principles behind the Bill—certainly the vast majority of people to whom I have spoken support them, as do the vast majority of young people. I am talking about people under 50.