Post Office (Horizon System) Compensation Bill

Kevan Jones Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as a member of the Horizon compensation advisory board. I rise to welcome the Bill and the reasoning behind it, as outlined by the Minister. I must say that the Minister is committed to ensuring that we make the scheme as fair and equitable as possible. As he said, it would have been unjust to have left the sword of Damocles that was the arbitrary deadline of next August hanging over the heads of potential claimants. It is right that the Bill is brought forward. I echo the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) that we do not want to see delays in compensation, but, because of the trauma that individuals are involved in and the complexity, some cases may take longer than others.

May I, at this point, put on the record my thanks to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam? Having dealt with the issue for more years than I care to remember—and, I must say, having dealt with a succession of useless Ministers who literally accepted what their civil servants said and continued to parrot that, even when they knew that the Horizon system was at fault—it is a credit to him that he was the only one who grasped the situation and got to understand its complexities. I also welcomed the private chats we had on some of the issues. He is right that the scheme is not easy to implement, but he was willing to question things that were clearly wrong and to put it through. I would not want to make the Minister blush, but if people want an example of a Minister doing his job and having something to look back on and be proud of, they should look at his response to this matter. I do not want to downgrade the present Minister, who has picked up the baton and, as the poacher turned gamekeeper that he is, is following through to ensure that the scheme and justice are delivered for those individuals affected by Horizon.

As has been mentioned, I first got involved because of a constituent called Tom Brown, who came to my surgery. I say to any new Members in the House that if they ever get a case in a constituency surgery and think, “This sounds complex, but it just seems wrong,” they should dig into it and stick with it. Tom was a sub-postmaster in North Kenton in Newcastle. He had worked at other post offices before that, but he and his wife had bought a sub-post office in North Kenton for £150,000, which he saw as an investment not only for him but for his family’s future. He ran it with his wife; they had a convenience store, and it was successful until the Horizon computer system came along. Like many victims, he was given initial training on the system, but it came out in the inquiry that it was completely inadequate.

Not long after Horizon was installed, Tom started having shortfalls. If they were small, many people just made them up, but in his case they got to £85,609.03. He could not reconcile it, despite going to the helpline and saying, “Look, something’s wrong here.” The helpline just ignored him. In November 2008, two Post Office employees came along to do a branch audit, which is when the nightmare for Tom and his family began. He was accused of stealing the £85,000. Despite his efforts to explain the shortfalls in the system, no one listened, nor did they listen in the many other victims’ cases.

Tom had invested in property: he had his business, investment properties and his own house. He had the indignity not only of his name being in the local newspapers as someone who had stolen £85,000 but of having his home searched by the Post Office, looking—strangely enough—for the £85,000, as though he had it stuffed under the bed. The indignity of that is remarkable. We must remember that these individuals were pillars of the local community; people looked up to them and respected them in their communities—and that was suddenly all torn away.

In his witness statement to the inquiry, Tom describes the sensational media wildfire, which was disturbing for him and for his family. He is open in his statement that he considered suicide—sadly, we have heard that at least four people have taken their own lives. He did not because of his strong family. The irony of his situation is that when the Post Office prosecuted him, the case went to Crown court only to be withdrawn on the day it was heard. He was found not guilty of false accounting because no evidence was put forward. The judge said in his summing up:

“I’m sure you’ll be taking this further, Mr Brown”.

By that stage, Tom was left bankrupt. He was accused of stealing £85,000, his name sullied. That led to hardship not just for him but for his family. He had to sell his properties and his business, after it floundered. His son had to take him in and also got into financial difficulty, borrowing money to support his father, and they ended up in social housing in my constituency. The family were completely broken. I want to stress this aspect: we talk about the individual victim, but the effect on their families must be highlighted and compensated. Some family members need counselling because of the effects on them, and Tom’s witness statement to the inquiry sums that up well.

Sadly, Tom did not live to see the compensation he deserved, nor to see his name cleared and those involved in his case brought to justice; he passed away a few weeks ago. I add my condolences to his family. His name is still there with Alan Bates, who has been mentioned, and the others who fought this case.

Would we have got to where we are today without those people? No, we would not, because even when the Post Office knew that the system was flawed, it spent £100 million of taxpayers’ money defending the indefensible in court as a result of the litigation brought by Alan Bates and the rest of the 555. The tactic of the Post Office was very clear: it was to use public money—our money—to outspend the postmasters who had taken it to court. That was outrageous, given that it subsequently came to light, during the inquiry and also in court, that the Post Office knew that it did not have a leg to stand on. It was forced to settle out of court because it had run out of money, which was the intention of the Post Office and the Department that was in charge at the time.

Do we need to get this system moving? Yes, we do. Having been on the advisory board, I understand the complexities of the scheme. Would we start where we are starting now if we were starting afresh? No, we would not—but 60 people have already died, including Tom, and it is imperative now for us to try to get this compensation paid to their families and to the other postmasters. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam also said that we would not have started here. We now have the group litigation scheme, the historical shortfall scheme and the overturned convictions scheme. Is it too late to try to pull those three into one? I personally think it is, and I do not know what the Minister’s civil servants would do if we suggested it. In any event, I do not think that it is the way forward.

One thing that I do welcome is the appointment of Sir Ross Cranston as the final arbitrator in the process. If people are not happy about the levels of compensation they receive, there will be that final independent arbitrator. There has always been this point about independence. Do any of those involved trust the Post Office? No, they do not. Do I trust the Post Office? No, I still do not trust it, given the way in which it has handled this matter.

[Paul Scully]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a great speech, and he has got to the crux of the situation, by talking about trust. The postmasters have had plenty of words—20 years of seemingly reassuring words—that they cannot trust, and it is incumbent on all of us to act.

[Mr Jones]

I entirely agree, and I think that that is how the hon. Gentleman helped—in trying to cut through the words. But whatever I say, he says or anyone says, are these people ever going to trust the Post Office? In his statement to the inquiry, Tom said:

“I think the Post Office are the most corrupt organisation around.”

I have to say that I do not disagree. This was not about people making mistakes; in public administration, people do make mistakes. This was clearly a cover-up conspiracy and, I think, downright criminality on the part of certain individuals. I will return shortly to how we are to get justice in respect of those individuals, but the Bill is about compensation, and I think it important that we take this step forward.

I want to pay tribute to some of those who have kept the fire burning over the years, including Lord Arbuthnot —James Arbuthnot, who has been a tireless campaigner on this issue since he was in the House of Commons—Nick Wallis, and Karl Flinders of Computer Weekly. They have done great work in pushing the issue forward, and they need to be thanked for it.

I also want to raise an important point in respect of the schemes we have now. I did not think that new developments could come about, but they have. This is relevant to amendment 1, which I tabled but which was unfortunately not selected for technical reasons. Lo and behold, a few months ago I learned that there had been another scheme, which could almost be described as a son or daughter of Horizon but which preceded it. It was trialled in the north-east of England. The only reason I knew about it was that I was contacted by the son of a lady somewhere in the north-east—she does not want any publicity—who wanted me to come and see her. When I went to see her, I thought, “This sounds like a Horizon case but it can’t be because the dates are wrong.” Lo and behold, we now learn that 300 trials were done, mainly in the north-east, before Horizon. That lady will not get compensation. She was prosecuted and I understand that another case has now been found. This also came out at the inquiry. When all the publicity came out about Horizon, why did no one come forward and say, “By the way, do you realise we had another system on the go at the beginning and we prosecuted people under that system?”

I know the Minister is on to this, and I am certain that the advisory board is as well. There are potentially other people who were prosecuted because of another failed system that was not Horizon. That needs addressing as matter of urgency because there are people out there who are clearly innocent. I think the lady I have just mentioned could be described as having post-traumatic stress disorder. She was completely mentally scarred by the episode. If we can get justice for that individual and others, we should certainly do so.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for making that salient point. I am aware that there are many affected postmasters and families in Northern Ireland, including some in my constituency. What they are seeking is a timescale for when all postmasters in Northern Ireland—and, indeed, across this great United Kingdom—can expect to receive their compensation, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is going to ask for that now. Those in my constituency have not received any word about compensation yet. Does he agree that when the Minister sums up the debate, we want to be given the timescale for the compensation? We want to know that right away.

[Mr Jones]

Yes. We now have this Bill and we have got the compensation scheme moving, and I think we need to move very quickly to get the money paid out.

Another issue relates to overturned convictions. Nearly 900 people have been convicted, 700-odd through the Post Office. Some of them in Northern Ireland and Scotland were convicted under a different system. Some were prosecuted by the DWP, for example. I will not rehearse the arguments now, but only 93 of those convictions have been overturned and that does not sit right with me. Somebody asked me why people had not come forward, but they are never going to come forward. They have been so scarred and traumatised by the court process that they will never go anywhere near a court process again. We need to tackle that, and I will cover that when I speak to my amendment later.

I welcome this Bill. My final point is on responsibility. If this scandal had happened in the United States, which takes a very different approach to financial crime and misdemeanours, people would be in jail by now. The evidence is all there, and I accept that Sir Wyn is slowly prising it out of the Post Office, but there are individuals such as Paula Vennells, who, ironically, got a CBE in 2019 for services to the Post Office, even though she oversaw all that was going on. I have written on numerous occasions to the Honours Forfeiture Committee to get that taken off her, but I have had no answer.

If there is one broad lesson to be learned from this scandal by Ministers and future Ministers, it is that when the state does something like this that is so wrong, there should be no hiding place for anyone who has been responsible. Sir Wyn is doing a great job in his inquiry to unearth some of these things. Fujitsu has been mentioned. That is an organisation that definitely has some huge questions to answer.

I think there are two parts to this. First, we have to get the compensation paid. The Minister has committed to trying to put people in the position they would have been in if they had not been affected, which is what we need to do. Will the compensation ever fully compensate them for what they have been through? No, it will not—they will have a scar—but it will help. The other important thing is that the people responsible should be brought to justice and have their day in court. Clearly, they need to answer for it.

I finish with the final line of Tom Brown’s evidence to the public inquiry, at paragraph 89:

“I would…like to find out who was responsible once and for all and to see someone take accountability for the wrong doings of the Post Office.”

I could not have put it better myself.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

With the leave of the House, it is a pleasure to conclude this debate. We have heard insightful contributions from right hon. and hon. Members across the House, many of whom have championed this cause and campaigned for justice on behalf of postmasters for many years. I pay particular tribute to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan), the hon. Members for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) and for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) and others, who have demonstrated the best of cross-party campaigning in the interests of those affected by this scandal.

I have addressed the House many times on the subject of the Post Office Horizon scandal, both as a Back Bencher and now as the responsible Minister, and I want to respond to the specific points raised in the debate. The shadow Minister who opened the debate, the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), rightly talked about further delays. I want to stress that this is not about further delays, but about preventing an arbitrary date being set, so that people whose claim has not been submitted or is not at the stage where it has been completed or settled can still get compensation.

I say to the other shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones), as I said in my earlier remarks, that the commitment is that we will get 90% of offers out in 40 working days. We are doing a number of things to expedite settlements and accepted claims, not least the fixed-sum award for overturned convictions. She asked about the number of people who have taken that route. For confidentiality reasons, we do not think it is right to state the actual number, but it is a significant proportion, so certainly it is a route that many people think is the right one for them to take. Obviously that is a matter for the individual, and claimants can pursue the standard full assessment process if they feel that is their best option.

Not everything is within our gift, and that is one of the frustrations that we have, because these claims can be complex and require legal input from the claimant’s side. It can take time for the claims to be compiled before they are submitted. That is one of the reasons why we think it is right to delay the long-stop date of 7 August next year.

The hon. Member for Croydon Central asked about the resources and about how we will expedite the settlements. She may be aware that we have recently committed to additional resources for the Post Office. Part of that is to increase the resources committed towards the inquiry, but another part is committed to compensation. We think all the resources are there to get this money paid out within the timeframes we have set out.

I pay tribute again to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) for all of the work he did on this scheme. It is perhaps a little bit ironic that I used to push him from the Back Benches and now he is pushing me from the Back Benches on a similar issue. He is a very sad loss to the Front Benches in this House; he did a fantastic job and he speaks with great authority on this subject. As he says, the best work he did in the Department he attributes to this particular area, so I thank him for all he has done.

My hon. Friend asks whether we need to extend this the long-stop date and why. It is very much a long-stop position. We want to get the payments out before 7 August but, as Sir Wyn Williams advised, this is the right thing to do. My hon. Friend also asked whether, if we were to start again, which I do not think is the right thing to do, we would do things in this way, with three different compensation schemes. I think Sir Wyn Williams said something very similar: we would not do it like that, but all together in one single scheme. However, we are not there and it is right to push ahead now with the work we are doing in this form.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is not in his place, said that we need to go faster, not slower. We are not going slower; we are going faster, and that is what we are keen to do. The same issue was raised by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who rightly pushed us to make sure we are delivering this at pace. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam also talked about doing things at pace; “pace” is a word I use a lot in my Department—my officials will probably support that remark—so I totally agree with him. If I may say so, I think the pace in a Department should be dictated by Ministers, so it is my responsibility to make sure that the schemes are delivered at pace.

My hon. Friend wished the House a merry Christmas; I am pleased, and I think we should all be pleased, that 27 families have had convictions overturned and may be able to enjoy their Christmas a little bit more than previous Christmases. Their ability not only to receive compensation, but to move on and move away from some of the trials and tribulations that they have faced in getting compensation and getting justice, is welcomed by everyone in the House.

As always, I thank the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw for the work she does on the all-party parliamentary group on post offices. She pointed out the very significant value that post offices have in communities. I could not agree with her more that the disclosure areas were unacceptable. That should not have happened and we made that very clear to Post Office management. I agree with her entirely on Fujitsu. Anybody who is shown to be responsible for the scandal should be held accountable, and that may also include compensation. We have stated that on the Floor of the House on a number of occasions. She refers to senior executives in terms of the inquiry sub-metric, having repaid bonuses voluntarily. Those are not something we would want to see in future. I also agree with her and others, including the right hon. Member for North Durham, about some of the people who have been instrumental in this matter outside this House. She referred to Dan Neidle. Nick Wallis, Karl Flinders and Tom Witherow have also been important contributors in ensuring that sub-postmasters get the justice they deserve.

I thank the right hon. Member for North Durham again for all his work and for his work on the advisory board. He talks about a sword of Damocles and is right to say that we are removing it. He speaks very movingly about Tom Brown and what happened to him: the indignity of having his home searched, hardship, bankruptcy, the impact on his family, and his reputation in the community. All were intolerable situations. He sadly passed away prior to receiving compensation. In my constituency, Sam Harrison, a sub-postmaster in Nawton, near Helmsley, went through a similar set of circumstances, certainly in relation to financial difficulty. She sadly passed away earlier this year without receiving compensation. There is a huge human cost, as well as a financial cost. I talked to the advisory board about potential counselling that might be made available to sub-postmasters. We also talked about restorative justice. Sir Wyn Williams has referred to that and it is something we are keen to look at.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned a predecessor to the Horizon scheme in the north-east. If we are on the same page, I understand that was a pilot scheme for Horizon, so we are confident that our current compensation schemes can deliver outcomes and compensation for the individuals he refers to, but if he does not agree with that I am very happy to have a conversation with him.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

That is welcome, but I think the Minister knows my views on the advisory board. We need to try to find out exactly how many people were prosecuted and in what circumstances. It shocked me, and I think the Minister too, that even with all the publicity about Horizon, no one actually said, “By the way, we had this scheme.” If it had not come out in the inquiry, or I had not intervened to see that individual in the north-east, would it just have been forgotten about?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Those people will not be forgotten about. I am very happy to work with the right hon. Gentleman and the advisory board on any matter he raises with me. I think we are very like-minded on all the issues he has brought to us so far and we are keen to deliver solutions where we think they are required. I agree with him about Sir Ross Cranston. I worked with Sir Ross from the Back Benches. He came in with the review of the Lloyds-HBOS scheme and did a fantastic job. I also agree with him on holding individuals to account. Whether it be Lloyds, HBOS or Post Office Ltd, I do not think we will ever stop these things happening until we hold individuals to account. He talked about Paula Vennells’ CBE. I think Sir Tom Scholar, the head of the relevant body on the forfeiture of honours, has said that we need to wait until the end of the inquiry to consider that, but it should certainly be looked at. I completely associate myself with the comments of the right hon. Gentleman’s former constituent Tom Brown in relation to holding people to account.

In response to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones), yes we are allowing ourselves extra timescales but we do not want to use them. On the Christmas deadline, I think we are on the same page on this. It was Christmas this year for the Horizon shortfall scheme. We have now delivered offers to 100% of those people who have applied through that scheme, which meets our objective. Nevertheless, many of those cases are complex and not everything is in our gift to ensure that claims are put in promptly so that they can be dealt with quickly.

I thank the right hon. Member for East Antrim for his kind words. I commit absolutely to giving regular updates to the House. I am very happy to come to speak to hon. Members about this, both on the Floor of the House and by other means. There are regular updates about compensation payments on the gov.uk website. I agree entirely with him about accountability and the need to ensure that the guilty are held responsible. He is right to say we will be rigorous with anybody who is shown to be guilty, including at Fujitsu. He is also right to say that there are some things associated with a tremendous scandal that we can never compensate people for. That is why we are here, keen to deliver a final resolution to these problems.

My Department and I continue to work hard to ensure that those affected by the Horizon scandal receive the full and fair compensation that they are owed. The Bill is just part of the action that the Government are taking to defend the interests of postmasters. I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).

Further proceedings on the Bill stood postponed (Order, this day).

Post Office (Horizon System) Compensation Bill

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 19th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

Thank you, Chair Nige—el.

We had a useful Second Reading debate. I am grateful for the constructive contributions from Members across the House. I welcome the chance for a more detailed examination of the Bill in this Committee of the whole House.

Clause 1 provides the continuing legal basis to pay compensation to members of the group litigation order scheme beyond the current deadline of 7 August 2024. As we have discussed, that is the deadline by which the Government aim to have concluded compensation payments to GLO members, but that power removes any doubt as to our ability to fund compensation beyond that date should it prove necessary.

Clause 1 does that by empowering the Secretary of State to make payments

“under, or in connection with, schemes or other arrangements—

(a) to compensate persons affected by the Horizon system;

(b) to compensate persons in respect of other matters identified in High Court judgments given in proceedings relating to the Horizon system.”

That definition provides additional flexibility beyond the specific GLO scheme to facilitate compensation payments related to Horizon should it ever be required in future.

Clause 2 sets out the short title of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 1

Eligibility of Potential Claimants

“The Secretary of State must amend the schemes to which this Act applies to ensure that—

(a) all persons affected by the Horizon system who have had their convictions quashed are compensated on the same basis, regardless of the rationale of the decision to quash the conviction; and

(b) all persons affected by the Horizon system with extant convictions relating to the Horizon system are compensated on the same basis as those claimants with quashed convictions, with the exception of those claimants whose convictions were based on clear, compelling and corroborated evidence.”—(Mr Kevan Jones.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I rise to speak to new clause 1, which stands in my name and those of the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows), the right hon. Members for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), and my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne). The clause would do two things: first, it would provide that all those with overturned convictions would receive compensation on the same basis, including the so-called public interest cases. Secondly, it would provide for all those with convictions that have not been overturned to receive compensation on the same basis as those with overturned convictions. I will deal with both issues in turn.

Reference has already been made to the number of overturned convictions that have gone through the Court of Appeal. Lord Arbuthnot and I approached the criminal cases review body about 10 years ago to highlight the injustice of these cases. In 2020, the Criminal Cases Review Commission started referring cases to the courts to overturn the convictions—the number of Post Office Horizon cases sent back to the courts has already made this the most widespread miscarriage of justice seen by the CCRC. Many of those cases have been described in quite a lot of detail today, with individuals such as pregnant women and others being sent to prison, including individuals who have since had their convictions overturned.

In April 2021, 39 former sub-postmasters had their convictions quashed by the Court of Appeal. The court concluded that the Post Office should not have prosecuted them in the first place, and found the Post Office’s conduct to be

“an affront to the conscience of the court”.

What has subsequently come out in the inquiry makes me wonder how on earth some of these people slept at night, knowing what they knew at the time while pursuing those individuals in court. Earlier, I made reference to Paula Vennells, who I understand is also an ordained Church of England priest—she clearly did not extend her godliness and forgiveness to those who were clearly innocent, but who she was quite content to see prosecuted. As far back as 2011, if not earlier, she knew that the Post Office system was not infallible, as other things possibly are in biblical spheres.

As the right hon. Member for East Antrim said, the idea that we suddenly had a huge influx of kleptomaniacs working for the Post Office—that all these individuals were somehow guilty—was absurd. It should have rung alarm bells, but it did not. The Post Office went on regardless. Not only did it pursue people and take them through the courts, but it took individuals such as Tom Brown to court and then, at the last minute, supplied no evidence, having already ruined those people’s reputations and lives.

As has been said, 93 individuals have had their convictions overturned so far, but there are many more people whose convictions remain unchallenged. We have had some debate on the advisory board about the numbers—I think the figure for the Post Office is about 700, but another 200-odd cases relating to Horizon issues were prosecuted by other bodies, including the Department for Work and Pensions. It worries me that only 93 of the 700 Post Office cases have been overturned.

Some people might ask, “Why haven’t these individuals come forward?” Having met many of them—those who have had their convictions overturned, or other victims of the sub-postmasters injustice—I think that they just want to close this chapter of their lives. They are not going to go anywhere near a court, and in some cases they have passed away. However, I urge anyone who was prosecuted to please try to come forward, although I know how difficult that is for some individuals. It is to the credit of the Minister and the Department that they have tried to reach out to some of these people but, as I say, having met them, I know that is not very easy.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Mr Jones, you indicated that you did not wish to press the new clause to a vote. Is that still your intention?

[Mr Jones]

It is, given the assurances that the Minister has given. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.

Bill reported, without amendment.

Third Reading

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I welcome the Bill’s passage, which is another small step on a long road. I note what the Minister said about the response to the overturned convictions, which will be difficult, but, as he well knows, we have been there before over the last few years. Again, I thank him for his active involvement.

I also thank the other members of the advisory board—Professor Chris Hodges, Professor Richard Moorhead and Lord Arbuthnot—for their continuing work. We will no doubt be meeting shortly, in the new year, to ensure that we achieve what we all want, with people getting the compensation they deserve as well as the answers. I thank the Minister’s officials, and in particular Carl Creswell, Rob Brightwell and Eleri Wones. They may seem long-suffering given some of the expressions they give to advisory board members when we raise more work and more difficult tasks for them to do, but without their support we could not have got to where we are today. Officials are sometimes not thanked, but it is right to thank them for their work on this. Again, what the Minister and all of us want is for the system to work and for it to go some way to help heal the great wrong done to the individuals concerned.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for chairing our proceedings. I wish you, Mr Speaker, the Deputy Speakers and Members of the House all the best for Christmas and the new year. Let us hope that in 2024 we can have a conclusion for all the compensation and, more importantly, Sir Wyn Williams’s review, which will certainly make for interesting reading.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I will just say a few words before we bring the parliamentary proceedings to a close for yet another year. On behalf of Mr Speaker and the entire Deputy Speaker team, I thank all those who work here in our Parliament for their service through the year. It does not matter in what capacity people work here; we are all a team. Without their support, we simply could not do the work that we do. A big thank you to all of you. I wish everybody—those who report on our proceedings and those who watch our proceedings diligently—a very merry Christmas and a happy new year. We do not know what next year will bring. I will carry on playing the national lottery; I will live in hope in 2024, if nothing else, as this year was not particularly fruitful—none the less, I will carry on. Merry Christmas everybody.

Post Office Horizon IT Scandal: Compensation

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Business and Trade if she will make a statement on the interim report of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal inquiry relating to compensation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

I thank the right hon. Member for his question and his tireless campaigning on this issue. I am also grateful to Sir Wyn Williams for his work and for publishing his interim report. We will, of course, consider that properly in the coming days and provide a formal response to the House.

Sir Wyn’s report recaps the progress made in delivering compensation. He notes our repeated commitment, which I reiterate again, that that compensation should be full and fair. He notes allegations from some lawyers that there are impediments to providing such compensation, but says that he cannot see any legal reason why we cannot deliver our commitment. He is right, and that commitment will be delivered.

Sir Wyn’s first four recommendations deal with the advisory board, of which the right hon. Gentleman is a member. As he knows, the board was established at the instigation of my Department, and its composition and remit were extended as a result of discussions between Ministers, officials, himself and the rest of the board. It has already performed a very valuable service. Notably, its last meeting made recommendations about an appeals process independent of the Post Office. We are considering that recommendation and will reply in due course.

Sir Wyn also refers to the tax treatment of compensation payments. The right hon. Member will acknowledge that when we worked with him and the board on that matter, it resulted in £26 million of additional payments in the historic shortfall scheme, and exemptions from income tax, capital gains tax and national insurance contributions. Sir Wyn also suggests that we should legislate to extend the deadline for the group litigation order compensation scheme.

As we have stated, we will not let an arbitrary date stand in the way of paying full and fair compensation to postmasters. As compensation is being delivered under the sole authority of the Appropriation Act, spending on it is limited to a two-year window that closes in August next year. The Government are determined to deliver compensation by that date. That remains perfectly possible, but challenging. If it seems likely that we will not be able to compensate everyone in time, we shall of course consider legislation, as Sir Wyn recommends. I want to deliver by that date not for some legalistic reason, but in the interests of postmasters who have waited too long for justice.

[Mr Jones]

May I start by declaring an interest, as a member of the Horizon compensation advisory board? I thank the Minister for his remarks and for the positive and constructive approach with which he has addressed this issue. I also thank Sir Wyn and the inquiry for their ongoing work. I agree with many of Sir Wyn’s recommendations. I would be interested to know exactly when they will be responded to, especially because a lot of them were in the note that the advisory board sent to the Minister at the last meeting.

The three compensation schemes have become unwieldy, but the fundamental point is that equal and fair compensation has to be paid to all the people across the three schemes. I would be interested to know from the Minister when the recommendations will be addressed, particularly on extending the remit of the advisory board. I accept what he says: our aim—and certainly his—is to get compensation to people as quickly as possible.

The elephant in the room that needs to be addressed is the continued obstructive role of the Post Office. I found it remarkable that yesterday on BBC radio, the chief executive, Nick Read, said that the “sheer scale” of the problem has

“gone above and beyond anything that anybody could realistically expect”.

That begs the question of what he has been doing for the last four years and why he has been accepting bonuses for his and his management’s role in the inquiry.

The inquiry was stalled last week because again, the Post Office failed to disclose documents to it. When is this issue going to be dealt with? It either gets dealt with, or Nick Read and the entire board have to be sacked. The Minister knows, because he has met many of the people who are waiting for compensation, that they have gone through a lot. They need justice, and they need action. Ill-conceived comments from the present chief executive of the Post Office are rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims. Either he has to go, or something has to radically change at the Post Office.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his work. He is right to say that there are three schemes, which might be described as suboptimal. As Sir Wyn has said on this occasion and previous occasions, we are where we find ourselves, and we must push on. That is the easiest way and the best way to get compensation for those affected.

I referred in my initial remarks to the request that the right hon. Gentleman has made for an appeal mechanism. We are considering that carefully. I think he would acknowledge that whenever he has come to me with something that he thinks we should consider, we have always done that and are keen to deliver the mechanisms that the board requires.

The delays in disclosure were unacceptable, without question, and the Post Office has apologised for that. You are only as good as your last game, and the Post Office has to up its game; there is no doubt about it. We have a governance review into earlier issues around remuneration and the metrics regarding bonuses, which were found to be completely inappropriate. We are waiting for that report, which I should receive by the end of this month. We will take that under advisement, as we do any other evidence we receive about the operation of the board of the Post Office.

Post Office Ltd: Management Culture

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 13th July 2023 Westminster Hall

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the management culture at Post Office Ltd.

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George.

Many right hon. and hon. Members past and present continue to work on Post Office issues, especially the Horizon IT scandal—the greatest miscarriage of justice in UK history. Others outside this place who brought that scandal to public notice, including Alan Bates, Nick Wallis, Eleanor Shaikh and the many sub-postmasters past and present who suffered and, in some cases, died because of the management culture of Post Office Ltd, deserve our gratitude.

We should all remember that the statutory inquiry into the Horizon scandal is still ongoing; it has not even reached the stage at which it will forensically examine the management culture of Post Office Ltd past and present. For me, Post Office issues have never been party political. I have focused on the viability of the network. Post offices fulfil a vital role in local communities, and sub-postmasters worked right through the pandemic—that is the kind of people they are.

A local sub-postmaster and his wife came to see me in 2015, just after I was elected. Their sub-post office was being closed down and they were fighting for decent compensation. I was totally unaware that this was going on across the UK as part of the network transformation. A new sub-postmaster took on the post office in his local shop half a mile away. He was assured that that would boost his business’s revenue, although how that was going to happen I do not know—it was the same folk from the old post office that were going to withdraw their benefits at the new shop. A few years later, he told me he made more from his new coffee machine than from the post office.

Many long-serving sub-postmasters have been forced to stay on to try to recoup their investments in their post offices. Post Office Ltd confirmed recently that it will reduce the compensation for sub-postmasters of hard-to-place post offices from 26 months to 12 months. During my time as an MP, there has been a constant battle to ensure that sub-postmasters receive decent compensation when they retire and decent remuneration while they continue to serve their communities. Government funding increases have gone to Post Office management; under former and current management, SPMs have been last in the queue for pay increases. Does the Minister think that is fair? Does he agree that the Government promise that post offices would be the “front office of Government” has never been kept? That would have given much more revenue to sub-postmasters.

The Horizon IT scandal is the result of the culture of Post Office management, and I will show that that culture still exists. In his March 2019 judgment in Bates and Others v. Post Office Ltd, Mr Justice Fraser stated:

“There seems to be a culture of secrecy and excessive confidentiality generally within the Post Office, but particularly focused on Horizon.”

Eventually, in September 2020, a non-statutory inquiry was announced. It was led by Sir Wyn Williams and subsequently became a statutory inquiry. It was to gather information, to consider whether Post Office Ltd had learned the lessons and embedded the cultural change deemed necessary in Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment, and to consider the impact on affected sub-postmasters.

That commitment was echoed by Post Office Ltd chief executive officer Nick Read, who was appointed in September 2019. In a letter to the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee in June 2021, he stated that he was

“undertaking to drive a culture of genuine commercial partnership between Post Office and postmasters with openness and transparency at its core.”

He said that

“a major programme of improvement has been underway. The goal is to overhaul the culture of”

Post Office Ltd.

There is no doubt from the evidence submitted to Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry that there is a long history of obfuscation, secrecy, cover-ups and incompetence, for which no one has yet been called to account. We are now at the halfway point of the inquiry, and almost daily revelations have cast doubt on the claim that a cultural change has taken place. I do not intend to go into the details of the historical management culture, as Sir Wyn Williams is yet to cover that, but there is sufficient evidence that the hope of a cultural change at POL has not been realised.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I was shocked that the inquiry was suspended again last week because the Post Office had failed to disclose documentation to it. Does that not show that the secrecy, incompetence or cover-up is continuing?

[Marion Fellows]

I could not agree more with the right hon. Gentleman. I will come on to that point.

Openness, honesty and integrity are guiding principles of public life, but it seems that for decades the management of Post Office Ltd has not adhered to them. Shamefully, the compensation schemes set up to right the wrongs of the deplorable chapter of Horizon have not been immune to Post Office Ltd’s unjust approach. In recent months, tax expert Dan Neidle has written of the unfairness baked into them. He initially wrote about the unfair tax burden imposed on the compensation awards. Thankfully, that opened up an additional £26 million from the Government to “top up” compensation for historical shortfall scheme claimants, but he soon realised that the schemes are designed to ensure that the lowest amount of compensation is paid out. That goes against the assertion of the chair of the inquiry that “normal negotiating tactics” used in “hard-fought litigation” are not appropriate for Horizon compensation.

The application forms for the compensation schemes are so legally complex that Mr Neidle, a legal expert, said that even he would require legal advice when filling them out. However, the provision of legal and tax advice from POL-appointed lawyers has been totally insufficient and, as Mr Neidle says, “token”. Everything that follows the initial application is framed by the lack of legal assistance. The Post Office guidance, and the lack of clarity on the forms from Post Office Ltd that applicants can claim for damage to their reputation, leads many applicants to claim much less compensation than they are entitled to. Furthermore, there is no option to claim punitive damages. Mr Neidle says that a lawyer would spot that, but a layperson would not. Once again, that means that applicants, who are often elderly and in a weak financial position, are likely to miss out on a large portion of their compensation.

Shockingly, the Post Office continued to attempt to suppress the truth by warning sub-postmasters who received an offer under the HSS that they could not mention the compensation terms to anyone, including other applicants, the press, and their family and friends. That is inaccurate, misleading and, most of all, shameful. One applicant described the process of trying to get fair compensation as “soul destroying”. Have these people not suffered enough?

The recent scandal in which Post Office Ltd executives paid themselves tens of thousands of pounds in bonuses for taking part in the ongoing Horizon inquiry, which they were legally obliged to do, has been referred to as “bonusgate”. To make matters worse, one sub-metric that the Post Office remuneration committee deemed to have been fulfilled was required to be signed off by the inquiry chair, Sir Wyn Williams, but he had not done so.

In June, Nick Read, the Post Office Ltd CEO; Henry Staunton, its chair; Amanda Burton, the chair of the remuneration committee; Lisa Harrington, the former chair of that committee, and Tom Cooper, a former director from UK Government Investments, were brought before the Business and Trade Committee. Once again, there was a total lack of openness and clarity. It was claimed that the metric had been changed to require approval from Sir Wyn’s team rather than from Sir Wyn himself. Post Office Ltd still had not received such approval, but it exercised “discretion” to go ahead pay out the bonuses.

The Chair of the Business and Trade Committee, the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), outlined the statutory definition of “false accounting”—ironically, a charge on which many sub-postmasters were wrongly convicted. He said that

“it seems to me that in the annual accounts that Post Office reported to Parliament there was false or misleading information presented that did lead to the financial gain”

of Mr Read and some of his senior colleagues. As the single shareholder in Post Office Ltd, what steps are the Government taking to ensure that this situation never recurs?

The messaging is simply terrible. While sub-postmasters often earn less than the national minimum wage and others fight tooth and nail for compensation, executives pay themselves hundreds of thousands of pounds in bonuses for doing “a reasonable job”, even though the bonus sub-metrics they set themselves have not been properly achieved. That is the management culture of POL: bonuses for doing “a reasonable job”. Mr Read is on the record refusing to pay more than the token amount he has repaid. Compare that with the management bonus culture for sub-postmasters, whose area managers periodically offer them the chance to enter into a draw for a luxury hamper of tea products. It is teabags for sub-postmasters, and tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds in bonuses for executives and managers.

Shockingly, in recent weeks, following a freedom of information request by Eleanor Shaikh, it was revealed that Post Office Ltd had racially categorised the sub-postmasters it was investigating, using what have been described as Victorian-era racist terms. I will not repeat them. Post Office Ltd has since confirmed that the relevant document was in use until 2011. It is incomprehensible that no one in the POL management questioned the language in that document.

The chance discovery of that document raised further concerns about Post Office Ltd’s disclosure of documents at the inquiry. Sir Wyn Williams outlined that the late disclosure of documents

“has the potential to jeopardise the smooth running of the Inquiry”.

He said:

“It wastes public funds, it delays the provision of answers to those who were affected and delays the learning of lessons through the recommendations that I will in due course make.”

Subsequently, the Post Office informed the inquiry that it would not be able even to identify relevant documents by the date set by the chair, which Sir Wyn described as “grossly unsatisfactory”. At disclosure hearings, it was stated that the Post Office had been

“unable to identify the scale of the disclosure, and cannot give a timescale.”

However, Jason Beer KC, representing the inquiry, said that the number of documents that needed to be reviewed could be significant.

Representatives of the core participants lambasted the disclosure issues and their impact on victims—people who have already suffered immeasurably are being retraumatised—and called for an adjournment of the inquiry. Reflecting the views of victims, Mr Henry from Hodge Jones & Allen said in his oral submission:

“If a man deceives me once, shame on him. If a man deceives me twice, shame on me.”

He added that Post Office Ltd had taken for granted the chances that it had been afforded early in the inquiry, noting that there had been previous disclosure issues yet Post Office Ltd had acted vexatiously and done the same again. He said that those he represents will not say, “I told you so,” and that

“they knew the future…for the past they knew.”

Mr Henry spoke of the “mental scars” that victims had suffered for two decades because of the Post Office’s cruelty, culture of deceit, secrecy, cover-ups and lies.

Another representative of victims said:

“Post Office always throws a spanner in the works…They have total disregard for any of us. They’re making fools of everyone”.

Another victim said that having to relive the Post Office’s tactics had made them relive the way they were investigated and treated during Horizon, which had a significant impact on their mental health. The representative of Howe & Co. brought up compensation delays. He quoted a victim who spoke of seeing no light at the end of the tunnel and said that victims have no faith that all claims will be settled by August 2024.

The inquiry has been derailed, having been being suspended until the end of July, but that is under review and it is entirely plausible that it will not sit again until September. This latest in a very long list of Post Office-manufactured scandals is a kick in the teeth for victims, who are once again losing faith, for the inquiry and for the general public. The significant non-disclosure of documents by Post Office Ltd makes it feel like nothing in the toxic management culture has changed and, sadly, raises serious concerns about its future.

Sean Hudson of the Communication Workers Union described the management culture perfectly, saying:

“Every serious management failure results in a culture of offering that failure up for external investigation at significant expense to POL and the taxpayer, without learning from those mistakes.”

When were the Government made aware of disclosure issues, and what discussions have they had about them with POL?

The UK Government are the single shareholder in Post Office Ltd. Traditionally, the small business Minister, whatever title they have or Department they are in—at the moment, it is the Department for Business and Trade —has oversight of POL. UK Government Investments has a director on the board of POL, presumably to protect the Government’s interest in the company. The Post Office Ltd board has responsibility for the operation of the Post Office. Is that tenable, given the cultural issues of the past and present?

UKGI is the Government’s centre of expertise in corporate finance and governance. Until recently, its representative on the POL board was Tom Cooper, a senior civil servant, but he has now resigned as a director. Mr Cooper was heavily criticised for failing to tell Ministers about the error regarding bonuses for five weeks after it was revealed, leaving officials to read about it in a statement on the Post Office’s corporate website. That is not a great look for the Government and it raises real questions about the governance of Post Office Ltd.

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom, a Government adviser on a compensation scheme for Horizon victims, said that Cooper’s failure to tell Ministers and Parliament about the mistake was

“of a piece with the UK government’s representation on the board throughout this sorry saga.”

While I understand that the Department for Business and Trade has said that Tom Cooper’s resignation was planned before bonusgate, does the Minister accept that Horizon victims may find that hard to believe given the culture of deceit within Post Office Ltd?

The Minister has said that the salaries of the leaders of the Post Office reflect the need to have people with the right experience and expertise. Does he still think that the Government have got value for money from the current leaders of Post Office Ltd? Do the Government think it right that its CEO received £455,000 in bonuses and its chief financial officer received £310,000 while Post Office Ltd oversees scandal after scandal, drags its heels on compensation and offers substandard remuneration packages to hard-working sub-postmasters?

In the same way that the Post Office apologises for each scandal or crisis as it arises, the Government criticise Post Office Ltd and commission a report, yet there does not seem to be much action—I put that more kindly than what I wrote, which was: “and then they do nothing”. Government oversight has not solved any of the issues of the past, including Horizon. It is the hard work and tireless campaigning of SPMs themselves, journalists such as Nick Wallis, and campaigners such as Alan Bates, the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance, Eleanor Shaikh, Dan Neidle, Tim McCormack, the CWU, the National Federation of SubPostmasters, and many Members in this place, past and present, that has continued to push the Government on the issue. I exclude myself from that, because I just take everybody else’s work and talk about it.

It is about time that the Government offered a different approach, because with the current arrangement they are presiding over disaster after disaster. Sub-postmasters are essentially left to subsidise a Government-owned network at great personal cost, and when things go wrong, they are left to fight for justice themselves. It is about time that we started to see proper support for those at the coalface. Will the Minister outline the Government’s plan for the post office network, and provide assurances that the constant barrage of scandals will come to an end and that the management culture at Post Office Ltd will change forever?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I congratulate the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) on securing the debate. I declare an interest that I am a member of the Government’s Horizon compensation advisory board. Many will know that I have been involved in addressing what has become known as the Horizon scandal for many years.

I am usually an advocate of the cock-up theory of history—mistakes happen—but my involvement in addressing the Post Office and Horizon scandal started when a constituent of mine, Tom Brown, who was being prosecuted by the Post Office, came forward. The more I looked into the issue over the years, the more I realised that these were not mistakes but deliberate lies, cover-ups and deceits, which, as has been said, led to innocent, upstanding members of the community being prosecuted, bankrupted and, in some cases, sadly taking their own lives. That takes us back to issue raised by the hon. Lady: it is the culture of the Post Office that led to the Horizon scandal.

I have described the culture of the Post Office as rotten to the core. Based on recent evidence, I do not think a great deal has changed. Let us see what that rotten culture led to. The hon. Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) has referred to the vicious prosecution of individuals. The evidence that came out of the inquiry—Lord Arbuthnot and I were aware of this—showed that the board knew in 2011 that the Horizon computer system was flawed. The argument that kept being peddled out—that somehow the system was infallible—was just not true.

In spite of that, the Post Office continued to prosecute individuals, including one horrendous case where it sent a pregnant mother to prison. Some 927 individuals were prosecuted. The numbers went up substantially, so why was nobody at the Post Office saying, “Wait a minute: have we suddenly got a load of kleptomaniacs employed as sub-postmasters?” Alarm bells should have been ringing, and yet the Post Office doubled down on prosecuting people. My constituent Tom Brown went through agony for two years after being arrested for allegedly stealing £84,000, only to get to the Crown court in Newcastle and be told that the case was dismissed. In that time, he had gone bankrupt and had his reputation completely ruined. There are many other stories. I and other Members have met some of these individuals, so we know of the mental strain and cruelty that they have experienced. It would take a heart of stone not to be moved by their situation.

The hon. Member for Telford also raised the issue of the board’s approach of resistance. I have referred in the past to a tsunami of public cash being used to defend the indefensible, as happened in the court case that Alan Bates and the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance brought against the Post Office. There was also the ridiculous situation in which it challenged Mr Justice Fraser in the court and tried to have him removed. That was a delaying tactic—it was not about getting to the truth, but about trying to outspend the applicants. That all happened at our expense—the nearly £100 million it spent was our money—yet it knew back in 2011 that what it was arguing in court could not be defended.

The hon. Lady also mentioned the role of the board. There were faceless individuals sitting on the board and agreeing all of this. They were quite happy to get remuneration for sitting on the board, but they did not ask basic questions about what was going on. For many years I have not been able to get to the bottom of the role played by the UK Government Investments share- holder. That person was meant to represent the interests of taxpayers on the board, yet they were quite happy to sign off £100 million of legal fees for the Post Office. I shall make an exception for the present Minister, but I have dealt with many Ministers over the years, all of whom, to be frank, trumpeted the same rubbish every week, obviously guided by their shareholder on the board. It would be interesting to see what the shareholder said over the years. These faceless individuals are taking remuneration, and they need to be held to account for their actions. It is no good saying that time has passed. They have ruined people’s lives—that is the important thing.

The ironic one is Paula Vennells, who ran the Post Office from 2012 to 2019. It has already been mentioned that she got a CBE for services to the Post Office. Even in 2019, when she got it, we knew about the scandal that was going to break, yet somebody thought it was great to sign off on the CBE. They not only did that, but made her a non-executive director at the Cabinet Office and the chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust. What the hon. Member for Telford said is correct: it is a chummy club where we think good people—either good men or good women—can go on to these other things, and no doubt get, for those two roles, quite substantial payments. How was that allowed to happen? How did somebody in Government say, “Wait a minute; this scandal is about to break—we’ll give her a CBE and appoint her to two public bodies”?

Finally, I come to the present board. It has already been said that Nick Read’s salary is £415,000. He had a bonus of £455,000. The chief financial officer, Alisdair Cameron, gets paid £110,000 and got a £316,000 bonus. I ask them: where is their moral compass? How did they think it was right to accept such ludicrous bonuses when we are still fighting over compensation for victims of the Horizon scandal? That is wrong. I do not understand how someone can get nearly £1 million a year for running an organisation that is supposed to provide a public service and think that somehow it is right to get a bonus for doing their own job, while there are people who are broken, who are destitute and, in some cases, who still have the moral shame that came with prosecution. That is a moral issue. I do not know how these people sleep at night. How do they think it ethically possible to accept such a figure?

I think Nick Read has paid something like £7,000 back. Big deal! Let us be honest: that is pocket money in terms of his overall remuneration package. Part of the bonus was actually for their work on the Horizon scandal. It was complete nonsense: they said that Sir Wyn had to sign the thing off, but Sir Wyn did not even know about it. The Post Office made that up. At the end of the day, this is public money, not their money. This is not a private company; this is taxpayers’ money, which is the important point. I would not mind if it was actually good, but as has already been said, the inquiry has now been held up because the Post Office has not disclosed documents. The Post Office cannot argue that somehow it cannot find documents or that there has to be a delay. Somebody should have done a trawl of this. If certain people have kept money for work on the Horizon scandal, the Government should sue them, because frankly they are holding up the inquiry.

There is a lot of anger, quite rightly, among sub-postmasters, sub-postmistresses and their supporters, not only about what has happened in the past. There are some clear governance issues. I think that there is call to sack the board on various social media, and I agree with that: the present board needs to be sacked. We also need a fundamental change in the way the Post Office is structured and operated.

[Lucy Allan]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the lawyers, Herbert Smith Freehills, should be sacked?

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Lawyers are lawyers. The hon. Lady said she was a lawyer, and I mean no disrespect, but let us be honest, if the lawyers are going to get a good living out of it, they will take the money and give the advice. A lawyer will say anything if they are paid enough. The point is that the board is still not performing its scrutiny role. As the hon. Lady rightly said, the role of non-executive directors is to challenge and question things, but they are not doing that.

There needs to be an emergency situation and the current board, including Nick Read, needs to go. We need to put in some interim arrangements, and then in the long term we need to look at how the Post Office is run. It is frankly a farce that it is considered to be a private, stand-alone company. It is not: it is 100% owned by taxpayers. Unless that is done, I fear that these people will keep taking large bonuses and salaries and, as the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw said, our network will get smaller and smaller and the people who do the real hard work every day of the week at the front end will get less and less.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

It is a pleasure to speak with you in the Chair, Sir George. I thank the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for securing today’s important debate and for her constant work in this area on the all-party parliamentary group on post offices. It is always a delight to work with her in these areas. We share her passion for the post office network and the services that it provides to communities up and down the country.

A positive management culture is paramount for the health of any organisation, so I welcome today’s debate on the culture of the Post Office. As raised by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier), culture is critical to any organisation. As Emerson once said,

“An institution is the lengthened shadow”

of a single person, so leadership is hugely important in this context.

The Horizon scandal has had a devastating impact on those affected and on Post Office itself. It has now rightly accepted that it got things very badly wrong. I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for all the work they have done in campaigning over many years, including the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw, my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) and the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). I also thank the noble Lord Arbuthnot, who is in the Gallery, and the many other people associated with this work, including the barrister Paul Marshall, the journalists Tom Witherow and Nick Wallis, Dan Neidle and, of course, Alan Bates and the 555 people who took the matter to court. We would not be here without them, and we are at least starting to put these matters right.

When the current chief executive of Post Office, Nick Read, started his job in September 2019, he made it clear that Post Office needed to apologise for the events of the past, fully address them and, of course, compensate those who suffered detriment. A key part of that will clearly be the restoration of trust between Post Office and postmasters. That is so important, because, as I said previously in other debates, there is no post office network without postmasters.

In December 2019, the parties to the group litigation order in Bates v. Post Office Ltd took part in a mediation session and issued a joint statement confirming Post Office’s commitment to resetting its relationship with postmasters. Since then, Post Office has appointed two non-executive director postmasters, who were elected by other postmasters, to the Post Office board. This ensures that postmasters’ voices are being heard at the highest level—something that I witnessed yesterday when I attended the board meeting at the company’s offices. It is crucial that senior management is cognisant of the impact that its strategies and changes will have on those who are on the frontline of delivering services. Post Office has also appointed a current postmaster to a new director role, who leads the day-to-day relationship with postmasters.

Alongside those appointments, Post Office has looked into operational matters to improve culture and trust between senior management, staff and postmasters. Improved training packages, and the hiring of more than 100 new area managers to provide dedicated local support, are examples of positive changes. On the Government’s part, I enjoy chairing our regular working-group meetings with Post Office and the National Federation of SubPostmasters, as I did yesterday, and I find them to be a useful forum to discuss the high-level issues affecting postmasters.

On compensation, it is right to say that in order to look to the future, Post Office must first address and learn from its past mistakes so that it can rebuild trust in the business. We are determined that postmasters affected by the Horizon scandal receive the compensation they deserve, and the Government are supporting Post Office with funding to deliver that.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), challenged me on what the Government are doing to make sure that justice is delivered to those affected, and I am determined to make sure that we do everything possible in that regard. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for North Durham for his work on the advisory board, to which he referred. The board initially looked after just the GLO part of the scheme, but that was extended to all three schemes on the request of him and his colleagues on the board. I am delighted to see the work it is doing, and I am determined to give it what it needs to make sure that the schemes are fit for purpose and delivering outcomes as expected. Indeed, we expanded membership of the board to include, for example, Professor Moorhead, who has been a leading advocate in this area.

Although there is still work to do, good progress has been made across the different compensation schemes. For postmasters who were wrongfully convicted due to Horizon shortfalls, Post Office has to date paid out over £20.4 million in compensation. That includes initial interim payments to 81 individuals and, additionally, 65 partial settlements, top-up payments or hardship payments. Post Office has reached full and final settlement with four claimants, and will continue to process claims that are lodged as quickly as possible. The Horizon shortfall scheme, which was set up as part of the settlement in the 2019 group litigation case against Post Office, provides redress for postmasters who repaid shortfalls but were not convicted or part of the court case. Over 99% of the original claimants to the HSS have now received an offer, and the value of the offers is more than £100 million. A further £2.1 million has been offered to the 91 late claims that have been processed so far.

The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw says she believes the claims have been settled at the lowest possible level. I do not accept that. The advisory board, including the right hon. Member for North Durham and the noble Lord Arbuthnot, and I attended a session with the HSS panel and the lawyers connected to that panel. It was clear to me, and I hope to other Members who attended that call, that the panel works on an inquisitorial basis, trying to identify any detriment, financial or otherwise, and to ensure compensation in full on those matters.

The group litigation order scheme is being delivered by my Department—the Department for Business and Trade—rather than the Post Office. It is always tragic to hear the many cases that relate to these issues. I have a constituent—Sam Harrison of Nawton, near Helmsley—who sadly passed away while waiting for her claim to be paid from the GLO. That is unacceptable, and we need to accelerate outstanding payments through all schemes. To date, the Department has paid out over £21 million in compensation, including through interim payments. We have received 18 claims. Across those areas, our priority is providing fair and swift compensation to those affected, so that postmasters achieve the justice they deserve. Indeed, we have made some adjustments to the scheme and to previous schemes, in terms of the tax treatment of the HSS. When the board has come to me on any matter, we have delivered on its suggestions.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I would like to put on the record my thanks to the Minister and his predecessor, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), for the way in which they have approached the Horizon compensation scheme scandal. The board made some recommendations to the Minister at the last meeting. When will he be in a position to respond to those recommendations?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am keen to respond, as the right hon. Member knows, on a potential appeals process. I am looking at this carefully, and we will continue to engage on that, but we want to ensure that everything is fair and that people are confident in the process for getting the compensation they deserve. We want to ensure that the compensation is delivered on time. We have an August 2024 deadline, as the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw mentioned. We are keen to deliver on that deadline and are looking again at further ways to expedite payments to all those still waiting.

On governance, Post Office Ltd is a public corporation, and as such its board retains responsibility for the strategic direction of the company.

Post Office: Horizon Compensation

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank my hon. Friend for his work; he is a long-standing campaigner on this issue. He is right to point to the work of Second Sight, which was pretty critical to our getting to this point. The work of Members across the House in drawing attention to these issues shows Parliament at its best and what it is capable of doing, and I pay tribute to all Members of this place and of the Lords who have done that.

As I said, it took too long initially for the Post Office to hold its hands up and say that things were wrong. It had to be held to account in a court, which resulted in the settlement in December 2019. I agree that we need this as quickly as possible. It is also important that we get these schemes right. We want to make sure we get the compensation right the first time, and that is why it has taken a little bit of time, but we are in a much better place now. We are keen to get these payments out by August 2024, and ideally a lot quicker than that.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I declare an interest, as a member of the GLO advisory board. Today would not have happened without Alan Bates and the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance’s tireless campaign over many years. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) and the Minister for the way in which they have approached this scheme. Now the test is to get money to these claimants as quickly as possible.

I thank the Minister for agreeing to the advisory board’s request to extend our remit to cover both the historical shortfall and the overturned conviction schemes, but he knows what I am going to say now. There must be equalisation of the schemes, to ensure that individuals under the historical shortfall scheme are not taxed or liable to bankruptcy clawback. He will not be surprised to know that that will be one of our first requests at the first meeting.

I thank the Minister for his work. This is a historic step forward, but there is still a lot of distrust, and the postmasters and victims will not be happy until those who were responsible for this scandal are held to account in a court of law. That obviously will come after the public inquiry, but their day of reckoning needs to come.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his work, including on the advisory board, which is much appreciated. He is right to reference Alan Bates, as I did. I spoke to Alan this morning, and he is pleased with the steps we have taken, as I think the right hon. Gentleman is, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. We need to make sure these schemes work properly. When he and Lord Arbuthnot asked to expand the board’s remit to the other two schemes, I was pleased to support that wish. He is right to point to tax and bankruptcy. We need to make sure these people are treated fairly across all three schemes. We will leave no stone unturned—and I know he will not either—in making sure that happens.

Mental Health and Wellbeing Plan

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Derek Twigg (in the Chair)]

I will call Kevan Jones to move the motion, and I will then call the Minister to respond. As is the convention for a 30-minute debate, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the mental health and wellbeing plan.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg.

It is now 11 years since there was a major debate in Parliament on mental illness, when I and many other hon. Members spoke about their own experiences. That debate changed attitudes in this place towards mental illness and wellbeing, and both the press and members of the public have made great strides in being able to speak about mental health. We also now have members of the royal family speaking about their own mental illness, and it is heartening to see the Prince of Wales taking mental health and wellbeing as one of their charity initiatives. Unfortunately, however, there is still a lot of progress to be made in delivering timely treatment, particularly prevention and early intervention.

In England, the numbers speak for themselves. Around 1.7 million people are in contact with mental health services, and according to NHS England’s monthly statistic dashboard, 26,000 of them are occupying hospital beds or have a hospital bed open to them. We have also seen severe pressures on ambulance services and the police due to people in mental health crisis asking for help. However, according to the National Audit Office, there could be around 8 million people with mental health needs that are not currently being met by mental health services.

I am sure the Minister will tell us shortly that the Government are delivering record levels of investment in mental health services, but according to research by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, almost a quarter of people are waiting more than 12 weeks for any form of treatment. Some 43% of mental health patients say that longer waiting times make their conditions worse, and 78% resort to attending A&E because they cannot access services. I am sorry, but that is unacceptable. It shows that despite the amount of money going into mental health—I would argue that there needs to be more—much more needs to be done on prevention. We need a joined-up approach across Government to reduce the demand on services and to get people more timely treatment and intervention.

That is why I welcomed the Government’s announcement of the development of a cross-departmental 10-year mental health and wellbeing plan last year, and it was also broadly welcomed by everyone in the mental health sphere, including many charities. It was launched with a great fanfare of publicity as a major initiative by the Government, who said at the time of the launch that

“now is the right time to think about bold, long-term actions to build the mentally healthy society that we want to see in 10 years’ time.”

The then Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), said that

“our new 10-year plan will set an ambitious agenda for where we want the mental health of our nation to be in a decade’s time.”

Over 5,200 individuals, organisations and stakeholders responded to the discussion paper. Charities such as Mind said that a truly cross-Government plan will play a key role in making sure that support for our mental health starts to rebuild, post pandemic, to the same level as our physical health, so it was a bit of a shock when the 10-year plan was quietly scrapped in January this year. Instead, the Government say that mental health will be addressed in their major conditions strategy. As I have already stated, it is clear from the number of people requiring interventions that mental health should be included in any such strategy.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and I completely concur with his concern. There is a challenge. We know we are very interconnected beings, and our mental health and physical health are joined up. If we do not provide the focus required around mental health, it can get subsumed into other priorities, with mental health not having its day, its funding or real impact.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, but that is what was so good about the 10-year mental health plan. That was going to do exactly what my hon. Friend suggests. It was going to look at the interconnections between physical and mental health, and some of the reasons it occurs in the first place.

[Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend mentioned the consultation and the enthusiasm of the respondents. YoungMinds, a great organisation dealing with young people’s mental health, had 14,000 young people commenting as part of that consultation. Is he as concerned as I am that their views will now be lost and that they will be dispirited?

[Mr Jones]

I congratulate YoungMinds on its great work. It is disappointing that many of those people will feel let down, that their perfectly legitimate concerns around the mental health of young people will not be taken into consideration in a broader strategy. I will come on to that, but I would like to make some progress.

The major conditions strategy covers cardiovascular disease, including stroke, respiratory disease, musculoskeletal disorders, dementia, and cancer. Those are some of the most challenging areas that face the NHS. As my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) just mentioned, much has been said about parity of esteem between mental and physical health. I am a passionate believer; I believe that the integrated whole approach is right and should be our aim. However, a co-ordinated approach does not simply scrap the plan for mental health and wellbeing, if that means, as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central just outlined, that those will not actually be taken up or given the priority that they need.

If anything, trying to create change across a vast swathe of health in one strategy could risk dealing with none of the challenges that are faced in those different areas.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate forward. One of my concerns, which I suspect he has along with others, is for those with eating disorders, which is clearly a mental health and physical issue. Across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, there are 700,000 young people with eating disorders. That is not a core part of the Government’s plan, but it needs to be. Does he agree that eating disorders have to be key and core to any strategy addressing mental health and physical health?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, eating disorders can affect people of any age, but there is a huge cohort that are young. I am coming on to my concerns about particular emphasis on young people’s mental health, which needs to be addressed.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

Give me two minutes to make some progress. There are two issues that I want to highlight, which will fall through the cracks without dedicated attention. That is tackling disparities, and the mental health of children and young people, just raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). In the original plan for the 10-year strategy, the Government spoke about tackling enhanced disparities. They said:

“Addressing disparities will be a key aim across the whole of the mental health plan—from prevention through to early intervention and treatment.”

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The right hon. Gentleman is talking about young people. We would all concur that additional support for young people with mental health issues is extremely important. Does he agree that emotional intelligence support for young people is related to this? Does he agree that more emotional intelligence should be taught in schools, to help people through with their mental wellbeing?

[Mr Jones]

Personally, I would not call it emotional intelligence; I would call it emotional robustness and I will come on to say more about that. However, the hon. Gentleman is right about the importance of trying to make sure that young people are as robust as possible in dealing with the situations that face them now in modern life.

The discussion paper for the 10-year plan mentioned no fewer than 18 disparity factors relating to mental health, including financial insecurity, discrimination, the criminal justice system, poor quality of work or employment, living standards—the list goes on. It is important to acknowledge those factors, because the Government themselves said that they needed to be addressed in mental health and wellbeing plan. Colleagues will know that I have often been on the record saying that the way to tackle mental health and wellbeing is to make sure that we hardwire into Government policy consideration of mental health and resilience across Departments. That is why I welcomed the approach in the plan.

However, building consideration of mental health into a major conditions strategy means that only one disparity factor is likely to be taken into consideration, which is physical health. Many other disparity factors, which are often complex, obviously relate to people’s wellbeing, but I fear they will be sidelined in the strategy.

Let us just take one of those other disparity factors, which is financial insecurity. According to the Office for National Statistics last autumn, around one in six adults experienced moderate or severe depressive symptoms. That increased to one in four for those who find it difficult to pay energy bills, or rent or mortgage payments. And according to a YouGov poll for Barnardo’s, almost a third of parents said that children’s mental health has worsened during the cost of living crisis.

We know that the effect of wellbeing on health includes its effect on mental health, which is substantial. This was such a key priority for the Government that they outlined its importance in their levelling-up agenda. The levelling up White Paper said that

“wellbeing has a bearing on all four of the UK Government’s objectives for levelling up”.

The 10-year plan discussion paper specifically said that

“a new plan for mental health is needed to deliver the Government’s levelling up mission to narrow the gap in healthy life expectancy between local areas”.

However, we now have no mental health 10-year plan, so where does that leave those good words that were in the levelling up White Paper?

We also need early intervention and prevention, which are so important. We know for a fact that around 50% of mental health conditions are established by the time that a child reaches the age of 14 and 75% of them are established by the time someone is 24. However, it is estimated that 60% of children and young people who have diagnosable mental health conditions currently do not receive NHS care. I share the very valid concerns raised by mental health charities and others that scrapping the 10-year plan and merging mental health into the major conditions strategy means that the people who will be at most risk will be children and young people, who are less likely to have chronic physical health conditions, but are most likely to benefit from early intervention, for example counselling or psychotherapy.

I have spoken before about the importance of making sure that we get children and young people’s mental health right. Rates of probable mental health disorders in children aged between six and 16 have risen from 11.6% in 2017 to 18% in 2022. That equates to one in six children aged between six and 16 having a probable mental health condition. And as has already been mentioned, 700,000 children have accessed mental health services in the last 12 months.

[Rachael Maskell]

The Government need to take on board the important point that addressing the scale of mental health challenges in young people will not just be about health and looking at that major conditions strategy and how it interrelates with other health conditions, but about looking at what society offers, such as the education system, the digital community and so much more, which put so much pressure on young people. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is why we need this focus?

[Mr Jones]

That was the beauty of the 10-year plan; it was going to do that.

Coming back to children’s and young people’s mental health, referrals have increased according to the Children’s Commissioner, but waiting times are growing and fewer children are receiving treatment. We need universal access to counselling for children, which we do not have at the moment. That is why I support providing special mental health support in every school. I stress that schools are not islands, separate from their communities. We also need clear links between the support given there and in the community.

I have already spoken about having a joined-up approach to mental health, but there is another issue: to use a Bill Clinton quote, “It’s the economy, stupid.” If media reports are correct, the Chancellor will stand up later today to deliver what he is calling a back-to-work Budget, but unless we take proper joined-up action on mental health, any ambitions he announces today will not be achieved. Adults with mental health conditions are more likely to be out of work or in lower paid work. The total annual cost to the Government is estimated to be between £24 billion and £27 billion a year, and the overall loss to the economy to be between £70 billion and £100 billion. That is money people could contribute to our economy, so this is not just about people’s wellbeing, but about ensuring the economy benefits from good mental health and wellbeing.

England is the only nation in the UK that does not have a 10-year plan. The Government’s current approach of scrapping the previous 10-year plan risks, as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central said, sidelining mental health and short-changing future funding and policy decisions. It shows the lack of a coherent focus and risks losing the momentum that has been built over the past few years in mental health and wellbeing. Whether it is tackling disparities and the many complex drivers of mental health, or pursuing prevention and early intervention in children’s mental health, long-term planning is desperately needed in this sector. I cannot understand why the Government have put this to one side.

As I said last year to mark the 10th anniversary of speaking about my own mental health in the House of Commons, we need a dedicated public health strategy for dealing with mental health and wellbeing. We need a mental health strategy that is hard-wired into not just the Department of Health and Social Care, but every single Department and into local government. When the Government launched their paper for a dedicated 10-year plan on mental health and wellbeing last year, they said to

“challenge us to be ambitious”.

I am urging the Minister today to be ambitious.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Caulfield]

I am happy to meet my hon. Friend’s constituent.

Record numbers of patients are coming forward, both through referrals and via GPs. The consequence of breaking stigmas and taboos and encouraging people to come forward early is that more people want to use the system, so it is taking longer than we would hope for them to be seen. The situation is the same in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; it is not just something that England faces, which is why we are focused on increasing funding and resources. We are recruiting 27,000 additional mental health staff, and we are on track to deliver much of that in terms of support staff that are already in place.

We are also putting mental health support teams in schools. There are 287 mental health teams in place, covering 4,700 schools and colleges. They are not only helping young people who are struggling, but normalising mental health and making it as important as physical health. We teach young people about their physical health in schools—how to look after it and look for signs and symptoms of concern—but we have not done that in the past with mental health. Mental health support teams will normalise the idea that mental health wellbeing is as important as physical health wellbeing.

It is an achievement that in the major conditions strategy, mental health is on a par with other major conditions in the strategy. We cannot see patients just as people who have mental health needs, or who are suffering with a mental health illness. More than one in four patients who have mental health conditions have two or more long-term conditions, and 30% of people with a long-term physical health issue will also have a mental health problem. We cannot treat problems in isolation—seeing the individual as a cancer patient, a heart disease patient or a mental health patient. People are complex and have multiple issues.

By putting mental health in the major conditions strategy, we are matching what NHS England is doing with its Core20PLUS5 strategy. The right hon. Member for North Durham talked about inequalities. That is exactly what Core20PLUS5 does: it looks at the 20% of the population who are the most deprived and struggling the most with all their health needs, both physical and mental, and drills down into the five conditions that drive those inequalities, of which mental health is one. The major conditions strategy will mirror exactly what NHS England is doing.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will the Minister comment on the 5,200 responses to the discussion paper and the issue that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist) about groups that fed into the discussion paper? How will that work, and how will charities and people in the sector be able to feed into the new strategy?