Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-eighth sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

I hope to help the hon. Gentleman with the points I am about to make.

What I would say to begin with is that we have talked throughout this Committee about using an opt-in model. There is this idea that everyone will be doing this, but we have rightly set out requirements for specialised training and so on. There will clearly be individual doctors in the NHS, and so on, who decide that they want to provide these services, and specialisms and appropriate regulation will accordingly be developed as part of that.

The other thing I would highlight is that the current drafting explicitly requires a range of provision. The second doctor must be independent. Indeed, clause 8(6)(d) requires that they must not be

“a partner or colleague in the same practice or clinical team as the coordinating doctor”,

so although some are suggesting, perhaps in a positive sense, that there should be one, entirely separate organisation that does all this, that would not meet those requirements. There are those who are trying to instil a fear of one large organisation being set up to take someone from start to finish, but that is not possible under the Bill as drafted.

[Sarah Olney]

I am reflecting on the earlier intervention on me by the hon. Member for Stroud about how the only payment under assisted dying would be made at the very end, so therefore there would no possibility of a doctor making an assessment at an earlier stage in the process being influenced. Now the hon. Member for Sunderland Central is saying—this is obviously implied by the drafting—that the different bits of the approval process would need to be delivered separately. Whether that involved a payment from the NHS or a private provider, the doctor making those assessments will clearly be paid at different stages in the process.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this points to the fundamental problem we have in this Committee, which is that we do not have a proposed model that we can properly scrutinise? All of us are just talking about potential suppositions about how things might work. We are effectively talking about a range of straw men.

[Lewis Atkinson]

No, I do not agree with the hon. Member, and I will tell her why. The reality is that the shape of the health provider landscape is different in different parts of the country. For example, in Wolverhampton, there has been a significant amount of vertical integration, such that in many cases GP services are part of the NHS provider trust. Therefore, those amendments that would prohibit any public body from participating would explicitly prohibit GPs in Wolverhampton from that provision. Elsewhere, some hospices—a small number—are provided directly by the NHS. Given the history of the hospice sector in the UK, there is clearly a strong voluntary and charitable element of that provision, which is entirely right, but that varies in different parts of the country.

To return to the point made by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, there are some hospices and end-of-life providers who have made it known that, if this law passes, they may wish to explore whether they will provide such services. Equally, others will not. This goes back to the conscience debate that we had last week. There will be no obligation, so a hospice in one part of the country may well say, “Yes, we wish to provide this service as an option to our patients,” whereas a hospice in another part of the country might say, “We do not.” We need to get past this metropolitan mindset, whereby ll the providers are within easy travelling distance from each other.

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[Lewis Atkinson]

The hon. Gentleman is providing a masterclass in scaremongering. I know he needs Labour votes to switch before Third Reading, but this service must be explicitly commissioned by the Secretary of State, and it is inconceivable that they would commission that in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes. The co-ordinating doctor is of course one person, and they would be involved in the first assessment and the provision of assistance. Whether that is a doctor employed by the NHS or somebody else, it can only be one individual, but there are the other safeguards we have talked about, such as the panel, which the hon. Gentleman has spoken against. It is absolutely appropriate that the Secretary of State has the powers and the duty to commission the service, and that they will do so from range of providers, reflecting the differences.

On the other point that some hon. Members have made about regulation, I remind the Committee that any provider will be regulated not only under this Act, but by the Care Quality Commission, in entirely uniform manner. I am therefore confused by the points made by opponents of the Bill. Some have said there should be no provision of this by the NHS or any public body, some say there should be no provision by charities—including, presumably, local hospices, should they make that decision—while others say there should be no provision by local GP practices to provide continuity of care.

Perhaps those different points reflect different ideologies within the Committee that are deeper than this issue, but they perhaps also reflect the fact that opponents of the Bill simply do not want this service to be provided at all.

[Sarah Olney]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Lewis Atkinson]

No, I am going to finish this point.

The hon. Member for East Wiltshire did a good job of reading a Bevan quotation before—although I do not advise him to seek Labour party selection with such gravitas in his voice. However, I think he is the heir not to Bevan, but to Bernard Braine, the Member for South East Essex, who said in the 1967 debate on the David Steel abortion Bill:

“The idea has been spread around that it will be available on the National Health Service.”

In reference to the waiting lists, Braine went on to ask:

“Are our consultant gynaecologists going to make that list longer by making beds available to those who want abortions?”—[Official Report, 13 July 1967; Vol. 750, c. 1382.]

That is the tradition of objection that the hon. Member for East Wiltshire is in. Just because he does not wish to have the option for himself, he does not believe that there should be free-at-the-point-of-use provision on the NHS for anyone else.

I will take Bevan back to this side of the Committee Room. He said:

“The essence of a satisfactory health service is that the rich and the poor are treated alike, that poverty is not a disability and that wealth is not advantaged”.

At the moment, at the end of life, wealth clearly is advantaged. Those who are wealthy and are able to go to Switzerland do have choice at the end of life. Dignity and independence and autonomy should not be based on ability to pay. That is why we need to pass this Bill; that is why the powers to commission in new clause 36 are entirely appropriate and necessary; that is why I support it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Olney]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris.

We have discussed throughout the course of the Committee the importance of collecting good information on the operation of assisted dying, and I know that hon. Members will agree that understanding the impact of legislation on society, for better or ill, helps us to improve its operation and respond to any urgent issues that arise. To this end, my amendments and new clause specify that a few more pieces of information must be recorded by the doctor who facilitates an assisted death.

Recording the method, the time taken and noting any complications is not overtly onerous on the co-ordinating doctor, and these three pieces of information could be crucial to uncovering which drugs are most appropriate. It will also enable us to understand more broadly whether those who have assisted deaths are having good deaths. It would be deeply unfortunate if we were to introduce a mechanism intended to help those likely to die in great pain or with indignity, only for that mechanism to offer some patients an alternative kind of painful death. One of the ways we can learn which methods of assisted death are the most humane is to make careful notes of any complications and the time taken to die.

It is also critical that we understand the wider social picture of this significant social change, in particular with regards to equality considerations. Are there groups who are excluded from assisted dying? Are there groups who are over-represented? Should we treat one group’s over-representation as a demonstration of good access to the service, or should we see it as a failure elsewhere in the system? We can understand how those who face discrimination in our society are impacted by the Bill only if we collect this data, which is what my amendment proposes.

Dr Jamilla Hussain said that

“racism is also a specific issue within palliative care. We did a survey, post-covid, of staff across the nation working in palliative care. More than 1,400 people responded. The vast majority—more than 80%—were white British, but 40% said that they had witnessed or experienced racism within the end-of-life care sector. For ethnic minority groups, that is much higher. That leads to mistrust. I work in Bradford. We have lots of patients who are ethnically diverse in the hospital. Almost every week, one of the first things I have to reassure patients about is that I cannot legally do anything to shorten their life. This is front and centre of the fear for those patients and we see it all the time.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 29 January 2025; c. 190, Q247.]

As Dr Hussain highlighted there and at other points, racism exists in the palliative care sector. If we want to tackle discrimination, recording ethnicity and requiring the voluntary assisted dying commissioner to analyse the data would help.

Dr Sarah Cox told us:

“We need to make sure that there is not inequity in palliative care, so that you do not have to be white and rich and have cancer to get good palliative care.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 78, Q101.]

The consequence of failing on palliative care provision will lead to more people feeling they have no choice but to end their life early.

Collecting data would also help us to understand the legislation’s impact on women. I am pleased that the Committee agreed to the amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Lowestoft concerning training on coercive control and domestic abuse. The amendment also highlights the intersection between misogyny and the abuse of assisted dying, about which the hon. Member for Bradford West has spoken so compellingly at different points. Understanding how the law affects and interacts with women in particular seems to me to be relevant and necessary. If we are to ensure that the law operates in a way that is good for women, we need to collect this data from patients.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Richmond Park and I absolutely expect this information to be collected. My observation, as ever, is that I do not think we should put the exact details in primary legislation. The powers are clearly there for the Secretary of State to specify what information should be collected. I am struggling to find it, but I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley will move an amendment to require the Secretary of State, when they make provisions and issues guidance under the Bill, to consult the Equality and Human Rights Commission and others in respect of protected characteristics.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-fifth sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Tuesday 18th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

To me, amendment 430, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, strikes the right balance. Under clause 30 the Secretary of State “may” make provision for codes of practice on these matters if that is required; I am uncomfortable with saying that the Secretary of State “must” do so, when it is likely that it will be more appropriate for the GMC or some other body to make those regulations. We get into a difficult precedent if the Secretary of State must specify the reaction in certain medical circumstances but we routinely leave that to medical regulation and practice more widely. I think a “may” power, as set out in amendment 430, would allow that backstop provision, but would not get into the issue of “must”. It is also likely to be more respectful of the conversations as outlined in clause 9.

[Sarah Olney]

I am listening to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and a lot of what he is talking about in terms of giving doctors discretion makes a lot of sense in a routine medical intervention, but this is not a routine medical intervention. This is a very serious point, and the doctor’s judgment in this case could well fall either side of what is permissible by the law. That is why it is so important that it is really clear. Whether we decide in Committee that it must be on the face of the Bill, or whether we want, as per the hon. Member for Ipswich’s amendment 532, to leave it to the Secretary of State, it must be clear and specific.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I think the Bill is very clear on the legal parameters. A doctor may not act, in terms of administering the substance, in a way to hasten death. Within that, we are back into the realms of normal medical practice, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud set out. I am sure that there will be legal guidance, whether that be from the GMC or elsewhere, if and when the Bill were to pass. The Secretary of State would have the powers anyway under clause 30, but for the avoidance of doubt, amendment 430 strikes the right balance in giving backstop permissions to the Secretary of State to clarify anything if needed.

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[Lewis Atkinson]

I disagree. As clause 9 makes clear, the doctor will have had a conversation with the patient about their wishes in advance, in exactly the same way as a surgeon would have a conversation with a patient in advance of high-risk surgery—

[Sarah Olney]

rose—

[Lewis Atkinson]

I am not going to take any further interventions; I am going to answer this point and make some progress.

The surgeon would say, “If this procedure fails, would you wish me to attempt resuscitation? Would you wish to be put on a support system?” The hon. Gentleman misunderstands current practice on consultation with patients, in advance of procedures, about their wishes, which is where there is significant established evidence.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty First sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

I fear that the point the hon. Lady is making relates to before her amendment 459 was accepted. Does she not agree that by accepting amendment 459, we have guarded against the first independent assessment not being available for subsequent decision makers?

[Sarah Olney]

I am not used to my amendments being accepted. The hon. Gentleman is, of course, absolutely right.

Dr Matthew Doré, the palliative medicine consultant and honorary secretary of the Association for Palliative Medicine, said in written evidence:

“Allowing patients to seek multiple opinions undermines procedural integrity. Furthermore, allowing the coordinating doctor to seek multiple opinions even further undermines the selection of doctors willing to provide AD”—

that is, assisted dying. He goes on:

“The lack of a centralised tracking system facilitates ‘doctor shopping’.”

Notwithstanding the fact that amendment 459 has now been accepted, there is still grave concern about the possibility of doctor shopping. We should take steps to avoid it. That is why I am speaking against clause 10 in its entirety.

Under clause 8, the independent doctor has five matters to verify: that the person is terminally ill; that they have capacity; that they have a clear, settled and informed wish to end their own life; that they are acting voluntarily and without coercion or pressure; and they are over 18. The last requirement is unlikely ever to be in any form of doubt, so I will focus on the other four. The effect of clause 10 is to allow someone to be assisted to die when one out of three doctors who examined them had concluded that they were not terminally ill, that they lacked capacity, that they did not have a settled wish to die or they were coerced. It therefore raises a real risk that someone not actually eligible for assisted dying would none the less be so assisted. In such matters of life and death, we ought to proceed with great caution.

Doctors can get things wrong, of course. If the first independent doctor did get it completely wrong, I would have no objection to the second independent doctor effectively acting as a form of appeal—or, to borrow the test from the law of medical negligence, if the first independent doctor reached a conclusion not supported by a reasonable body of medical opinion, of course it would be right for that opinion to be disregarded. But that is not what the Bill provides for, which is not an appeal or reconsideration but picking a new referee simply because the first answer was not desired.

I still have misgivings about clause 10 notwithstanding the fact that it has been amended. I urge other Committee members to vote against it. I appreciate your indulgence, Ms McVey.

[Rebecca Paul]

I rise to speak against clause 10 as it allows doctor shopping in the event that someone does not qualify for assisted dying. “Not happy with the verdict? Just find another doctor!” How many times are we happy for a patient to try again with a different doctor? It is inevitable that at some point the patient will find someone willing to make the statement and put them on their way to an assisted death, even if their eligibility is in doubt.

When I put forward the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Dame Harriett Baldwin), which requested residual discretion for doctors, they were challenged by Committee members on the basis that the whole point of having defined criteria was so that they determined whether a patient was eligible. I run the same argument now: if the process is followed to the hilt and the independent doctor refuses to issue the statement, why on earth would we allow another bite—or even multiple further bites—at the cherry? Surely that is to allow abusers a way to push their victims into an assisted death by re-running the process again and again until they find a less attuned doctor.

Imagine the case of an elderly woman who has spent a lifetime under the coercive control of her husband. She is completely done with it all, and sees death as a welcome way to escape this man, who has made her life a misery. The abuse has escalated since she has become ill: because of her ill health, she cannot cook or clean any more, and he hates that. But no one sees. She never wanted the kids to know; she is really good at hiding it. Now, he wants to seek an assisted death, because it is better for them all. She agrees. When asked by a doctor, she is unlikely to say, “My husband is pressuring me into this, and I’m afraid of not doing what he wants,” particularly if she has suffered abuse over many years.

Let us say that the first independent doctor does a really thorough job—the kind of job that we hope all doctors would do. Perhaps the doctor manages to discern that the patient is very much controlled and unduly influenced by her husband. The trouble is that it can be very difficult to find hard evidence of coercive control. According to recent figures, only 3.7% of recorded cases of controlling or coercive behaviour result in a charge, and more than half of cases are dropped because of evidential difficulties. The doctor therefore cannot get the police to intervene; his only lever is the power to reject the application. So that is what he does. But the patient does not give up; she is still absolutely sure that the best thing is an assisted death, and her abuser is still whispering in her ear, telling her she is right.

The second independent doctor does not have the same emotional intelligence as the first, and he does not see what the first doctor saw. He approves the application.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Nineteeth sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Olney]

I am grateful for that intervention and, dare I say it, for the one from the right hon. Gentleman. That is the whole point about eating disorders: there is a very fine line to be trod between people who have capacity, people who lack capacity and people who have capacity but who can still be allowed to make an unwise choice, which is obviously a huge risk for people with eating disorders. I find that risk very much magnified in the Bill as it is currently drafted, which is why it is of the utmost importance that it provides specifically for the possibility that somebody is suffering from any kind of mental health illness, and particularly from an eating disorder—but I do not see such a provision at the moment. I heard the arguments that were made when I raised this issue in earlier sittings, and I very much welcome amendment 6, but it deals only with capacity; it does not talk about mental illness.

To conclude, amendment 363 is a crucial safeguard that would prevent assisted dying from becoming an unintended route for people suffering from mental health conditions, such as eating disorders, to end their lives prematurely. It would ensure that requests for assisted death are based on genuine, rational decisions, rather than symptoms of a treatable disorder. By aligning with best practice from other jurisdictions and addressing a critical gap in the UK’s current approach, it would strengthen the ethical foundations of the assisted dying Bill and better protect vulnerable individuals.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s speech, which she made with her customary dignity and force. I feel we are repeating some of the discussions we had on earlier clauses regarding capacity, and it is for the reasons I articulated then that I believe we need to stand by the Mental Capacity Act—and not deviate from it by introducing language such as that proposed in the amendment—because that is where safety lies.

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[Sarah Olney]

I believe I repeated several times in my speech that this is not about capacity; it is about mental illness.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I take the hon. Lady’s point, and I was about to come to that. The Mental Capacity Act already explicitly states that

“a person lacks capacity in relation to a matter if at the material time he is unable to make a decision for himself in relation to the matter because of an impairment of, or a disturbance in the functioning of, the mind or brain.”

The language around an impairment in respect of the mind or brain is already set out in that Act.

As has been acknowledged, the Court of Protection has repeatedly found that people lack capacity, and such people would therefore not be eligible under the Bill in some of the circumstances the hon. Lady set out. By introducing a new, undefined concept of “impaired judgment”, which as I understand it is not a term that exists anywhere else on the statute book, we would be clouding the Mental Capacity Act.

[Sarah Olney]

Does the hon. Gentleman assert that it is therefore impossible for anybody with a mental illness that might affect their ability to make a decision about an assisted death to be judged to have capacity?

[Lewis Atkinson]

As I am sure the hon. Lady knows, there are gradients of mental health issues, from low mood to suicidality and so on. We should not prevent anyone from accessing an option merely because of a mild element of, for example, depression, which they have lived with for their entire lives, if they have then been diagnosed with a terminal condition.

The key point, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley made out, is that the idea that eligibility will be conferred as a result of mental health illnesses is not correct. As we have discussed, the definition of “inevitably progressive” in clause 2, which is at the heart of the Bill, clearly protects against such instances. I also highlight the amendments we have made that help to clarify some of this. Members have pointed out the amendment from the hon. Member for East Wiltshire on removing medical conditions from the Bill, which was very helpful in this regard.

I do not want to fall foul of Standing Order No. 42 on repetition, but I feel like with this issue we are repeating some of our discussions on capacity. In particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge highlighted significant elements of the relevant legal framework in her speech at that point. In my view, setting out a test that is separate to the Mental Capacity Act, particularly in respect of the impairment of judgment, which is not then defined in any way, would undermine that Act, which has to be the cornerstone of the Bill.

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[Lewis Atkinson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. There are clearly further safeguards in those provisions, and also in the training provisions that we have already discussed. When the Secretary of State makes provision on training and assessment in respect of capacity and related matters, it is clear to me that they will do so with reference to some of the mental health conditions that the hon. Member for Richmond Park and others have referred to. Yesterday we agreed to amendment 275—which I was honoured to move—to ensure that people have had discussed with them “all appropriate” care, including psychological support, which further covers capacity. I would be absolutely horrified if there was any suggestion that people with mental health conditions should not have full access to all the support that may be beneficial.

[Sarah Olney]

Will the hon. Gentleman address the point that the requirement to refer for specialist psychiatric support is a requirement in similar legislation in other parts of the world—in Oregon, in California, in the state of Victoria in Australia, and in other jurisdictions that we heard evidence from? It is written into their legislation and provides a crucial extra safeguard, which is separate from the judgment about capacity because it is deemed to be so important.

[Lewis Atkinson]

Indeed, and that is why I support amendment 6, which we have just debated, to mandate referral for psychiatric assessment in cases where there is any doubt whatever. I think we have incorporated those safeguards and more but, fundamentally, as Chris Whitty said in evidence, for this legislation to be as secure as possible, we have to base it on the Mental Capacity Act, which has been tried and tested through the courts for more than 20 years.

The insertion of language talking about impairments of judgment clearly deviates from that Act, where an impairment test is already set out. I do not feel that is appropriate. I absolutely applaud the sentiments behind the amendment, but I feel we have sufficiently strengthened the Bill elsewhere and that the MCA and other provisions give the safeguards and the reassurance that we need on these issues.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventeenth sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

I rise to speak against the amendment; there are significant issues with it both in practice and in principle. In terms of practice, I draw Members’ attention to the fact that the amendment does not mention a psychosocial assessment; it mentions mandating “a psychosocial intervention”. As defined by the World Health Organisation, a psychosocial intervention can be as brief as five minutes. I know that it is a brief intervention: I used to manage services delivering psychosocial interventions. Nowhere in the amendment is the type of psychosocial intervention or its purpose specified. If Members hope that the amendment will lead to a psychosocial assessment—

[Sarah Olney]

For clarity, if the amendment specified a psychosocial assessment, would the hon. Gentleman be minded to support it?

[Lewis Atkinson]

The holistic assessment is already set out elsewhere in the Bill, so the amendment is not required. Amendment 275, which we made to clause 4, requires “all appropriate” psychological support to have been discussed with an individual in advance of the first declaration. I clearly supported that amendment, and I am very grateful that the Committee did.

From a practical point of view, amendment 271 talks about six months from the point of diagnosis, but if I had prostate cancer, I might have had prostate cancer for absolutely years—so is it six months from the point of being diagnosed with prostate cancer or six months from the point of being told that that is terminal? There are a huge range of practical issues with the amendment as currently written, but there are also issues regarding the principle as well.

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[Sarah Olney]

Would the hon. Gentleman not accept that a terminal illness in itself is a risk factor for an increased risk of suicide, and also that that risk is increased in the first six months following the diagnosis? That is the thinking behind the amendment.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I accept that that is a risk factor, but it is by no means determinative. Therefore, that risk factor has to be considered in the round with other risk factors such as levels of family and social support. As set out, the amendment does not distinguish between someone receiving a terminal diagnosis by themselves without any support network, and someone who expects to receive a terminal diagnosis at the end of a very long illness. As a point of principle I do not accept that we should mandate psychosocial interventions or that people must receive a level of healthcare in order for them to access other options related to their care—let alone the practicalities, which I have laid out, about when the provision would apply in relation to diagnosis and the fact that it is an intervention, which is in no way an assessment or any such thing.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Lewis Atkinson and Sarah Olney

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

Q I have one follow-up on that. At the moment, we are aware that there are instances across the NHS every day where people make decisions around refusing the treatment that would be required to prolong their life. Doctors, nurses and the healthcare team would be involved in assessing capacity and coercion around those cases. Can you tell me a bit about any learnings from that, about the levels of skill required in the current practice around refusing lifesaving treatment, and about how that might be taken into account in the Bill?

Professor Whitty: You are absolutely right: it is a completely normal part of medical and wider nursing, and other practice, but particularly medical practice, to consider issues of consent and capacity. It can be that someone says they do not want treatment that is clearly going to be lifesaving. A very well-known example is that of Jehovah’s Witnesses, who choose not to have blood products. If they are bleeding heavily, that is an issue that could lead to the end of their life. Provided they understand that and they have capacity, that has to be respected.

The alternative way—the other thing that doctors have to do—is to give people advice before they have major operations, chemotherapy or other drugs that may in themselves lead to the end of their life, but which also may lead to a benefit. Explaining to people the risks and benefits, including the fact that they may lose their life as a result of the next stage—if someone is at high anaesthetic risk, that is not a trivial risk sometimes with operations—is a very standard part of medical practice that you do from the point that you qualify. Obviously, as people get more senior, they tend to be more experienced in it—and, as with most things, if you get more experience, you generally get better at it.

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

Q Professor Whitty, the definition of “terminal illness” is attracting some attention. Some people say it is difficult to define a terminal illness. Would it improve the Bill if we had a specified list of illnesses that would apply? Is it possible to come up with a list of illnesses that are terminal that would qualify under the legislation?

Professor Whitty: If I am honest, I think it would be extremely difficult. If I may, I will explain why, because it is a really important question. Let us take cancer. For the great majority of people with the majority of cancers that are diagnosed tomorrow, the doctor who is seeing them will say, in all confidence, “You have cancer and I expect you to be alive not just next Christmas, but for many years to come.” The fact that they have cancer is not in itself a demonstration that they are going to die. In fact, the majority will not. Almost 80% of people with breast cancer diagnosed tomorrow will still be alive 10 years later, for example.

Equally, there are people who may not have a single disease that is going to lead to the path to death, but they have multiple diseases interacting, so they are highly frail; it is therefore not the one disease that is the cause, but the constellation that is clearly leading them on a path inexorably to a death at some point in the foreseeable future. Exact timings are tricky—we might want to come back to that. I therefore think it is quite difficult to specify that certain diseases are going to cause death and others are not, because in both directions that could be misleading.