Terrorism Act 2000 (Video Recording with Sound of Interviews and Associated Code of Practice) (Northern Ireland) Order 2020

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Friday 10th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I apologise; I was unmuted but your Lordships could not hear me.

This debate has demonstrated the value of this Chamber. We have had expertise on all aspects from all around the House—legal expertise, political expertise and technical information. Compared with the debate in the other place, which I think took just a few minutes, we have covered all the parameters and raised a lot of important issues which I know the Minister will want to address. I thank him for his courteous and clear introduction to the debate.

A number of issues have been raised. I will refer first to the concern over the lack of progress on the victims pension scheme, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, this has the potential to be destabilising. What people in Northern Ireland want, particularly the victims, is not a record of blame or finger-pointing but action to unblock and release this logjam. The warning of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, should be heeded: the British Government should not be an obstacle to ensuring that what has been promised by this Chamber, more than any other source, is delivered.

On the recording of evidence and interviews, it is astonishing that Northern Ireland is so far behind in technical innovation. We all support this order as necessary, but very late in the game. Another issue that must be addressed is the updating of PACE, which, as my noble friend Lord Campbell pointed out, has to some extent been deadlocked in the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. As a result, one aspect of effective investigation is blocked for the police and security services in Northern Ireland.

To follow up on the concerns raised about data security, in some ways you could argue that old-fashioned, physically located data that is not accessible through the cloud or hacking is more secure than digital data. The Minister will recognise that there is a need to ensure that the digital data is comprehensively protected and to address whether old data in non-digital formats will be valid or will need to be updated and possibly digitalised in future.

Concern was raised about whether interpreters could be a problem, or a source of misinformation or disruption of justice. I also highlight the need to include sign language interpreters. My noble friend Lord Addington made the point that, for many people, speech is more valuable than the written word. That is absolutely true and shows the value of recording video and sound evidence. However, for the small, but relevant, number of people who are profoundly deaf, access to good-quality interpreters is really important. This is, in any case, normally required in a judicial situation by the European Convention on Human Rights. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the position on this.

The consultation was light on responses. Can the Minister indicate that he is satisfied that it was broadly enough based? The acceptance of remote monitoring was one of the positive developments as a result of the consultation. It is fair to point out that the people who did respond were those one would have expected—in other words, those directly engaged with it, rather than the wider public. The overall situation in Northern Ireland is that we have apparently waited eight years, or possibly 17—whichever way you look at it—for technology to catch up with the rest of the United Kingdom. In that context, this is clearly overdue.

Terrorism in Northern Ireland has haunted that community for more than a generation. The House will welcome, with no surprise, the total denunciation by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, of terrorism in all its forms and from all sources. This is echoed right across the House. We have to recognise that, while the situation in Northern Ireland is much improved, the pressures that have existed in the past are still building. The Executive has been out of action for three years and, since its re-establishment, clearly still has fundamental tensions within it. There is difficulty in bridging gaps, moving forward and recognising the need for joint working and co-operation. It is still disappointing to see finger pointing between the two extremes getting in the way of resolving problems and moving forward. This order is not only necessary and valuable, but an important step forward. I think the Minister will acknowledge that this House has debated this with a great deal more thoroughness than the other Chamber and has raised a lot of issues that need to be addressed. I am sure the Minister will wish to do this.