European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I think the House wants the Minister to reply, so I was thinking that we are probably ready to end this debate.

I have just heard the first case against referendums, which is that a referendum made my country of Wales dry—and that argument was in support of them. It was certainly dry on a Sunday when I was growing up; and this is the ex-director of Alcohol Concern confessing this.

We have considerable sympathy with one part of these amendments: that the Government cannot be allowed to mark their own homework regarding the outcome of the withdrawal negotiations, be that on Gibraltar, which is mentioned in one of them, our future relations with the EU or the withdrawal deal itself. We discussed last week, as a number of noble Lords have said, the need for a meaningful vote by Parliament on the deal and indeed on what should happen if the deal fails to win approval by the British Parliament. We also considered then the desire of some for a future referendum on the terms of the deal.

As the Committee knows, and as the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Newby, have said, we see it as essential that there is a proper, meaningful vote on the terms of our withdrawal. We trust that the amendment we will table on Report will find favour in this House and later, we hope, at the other end. As to what should happen if that deal is rejected, surely that must be decided at the time, in the full knowledge of the situation, by the House of Commons. It could be, as in a later amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, by extending the Article 50 period. It might be by revoking the Article 50 notification. It could indeed be by a referendum, though perhaps the wording would be a matter for then, rather than by amendment today. But the first judgment on the terms must surely be for this sovereign Parliament and, if it says no, it must then be Parliament that takes responsibility for what should be the next step. That means nothing is ruled out, which therefore means nothing is set in stone at this moment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, this has again been an excellent debate and let me say at the outset that I note that support for the amendments comes from noble Lords on all sides of the House. I am not trying to imply that this is a partisan issue, but it is one of principle. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, and the noble Lords, Lord Newby, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes, who have tabled Amendments 226, 227BH and 357, will believe me when I say that I respect their positions. But this debate has been held many times before, and I therefore hope that noble Lords will forgive me if my argument sounds familiar. The referendum question, agreed by Parliament and presented to the people, was whether we wished to leave or remain in the European Union. Parliament attached no conditions or caveats to that vote.

It was clear in the campaign that a leave vote could lead to a range of outcomes and that not all of us advocating leave agreed about the way to do so. People knew this at the time, it was extensively debated and, in the biggest democratic mandate for a course of action ever directed at any UK Government, voters instructed the Government to leave the European Union.

[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, it is that very term—“instructed” the Government or “instructed” Parliament—that is the subject of the amendments. I am not a fan of referenda, but it is clear that what the British people were led to believe, and what they voted for in the referendum, needs at least mostly to be delivered. The question is, if what they voted for—more money, no change to the borders, very easy trade deals; never mind that nobody mentioned ending of roaming and a potential Brexit surcharge on their flights—is not what is on offer, what should this Parliament do? It is questionable that this House should agree that the British people have instructed us to do whatever the Executive manage to negotiate with the EU, irrespective of whether it resembles even closely what the leave campaign told the British people it would achieve.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, the noble Baroness says that she is not in favour of referendums but is supporting a campaign to have another one. I think we all know what her agenda is: she did not like the result of the referendum, and she does not like the result of the policy. She is entitled to have her view, but we are entitled to disagree with her.

[Baroness Altmann]

I am not in favour of another referendum. I am in favour of parliamentary democracy and parliamentary sovereignty. The concern here is that Parliament seems to have handed over its power to the people by believing that there is an instruction from the people. If the Government were to say that there will be a free vote and a meaningful vote on whatever is negotiated, we would not need to go back to the people, because Parliament should be able to represent the national interest. I would prefer no final referendum or vote for the people, but if that is required it may be appropriate or prudent to leave it as an option.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not going to continue with this debate, but I think we know where she is coming from: she wants to reverse the result of the referendum, which she is entitled to believe, but I am entitled to disagree with her.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I will give the noble Lord another target. He seems to be an absolutist about referendums. What attitude did he take in 1975 to the two-thirds of the British people who voted to join on the terms that were put before them?

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid that I was not old enough to vote in that referendum, but my father tells me that he voted to join a Common Market at the time and nobody ever asked him whether he wanted to join a European Union. But that is a separate argument.

We in the Government believe it to be our solemn duty to deliver on the instructions of the people.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Will my noble friend give way?

[Lord Callanan]

I will make a little progress, if I may. I will take interventions later. I am on only the third paragraph of my speech.

I will not embarrass the Liberal Democrats further by quoting their leader, the right honourable Member for Twickenham, Vince Cable. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, says that that was years ago. It was not; it was in September 2016; it was only 18 months ago that he said that we should not have another referendum. Again, he is entitled to change his mind, but I hope that the Liberals will have the good grace to be a little embarrassed about it.

The Government never hesitated in accepting the verdict and, in line with the ruling of the Supreme Court, the Government than put the question of the power to notify Article 50 to Parliament. In passing it, this House and the other place voted with a clear majority to authorise the Prime Minister to trigger Article 50. The clue was in the name: it was the Article 50 notification of withdrawal Act, passed in the other place and in this House with large majorities. It was to give our notice to withdraw from the European Union, authorised by Parliament.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Is my noble friend saying that he disagrees with the ruling of the Supreme Court that although it was indeed the case, Parliament did not authorise the outcome of those discussions? That is what the Supreme Court has ruled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Of course I do not disagree with the ruling of the Supreme Court, which is why we will have another vote later in the year and will bring in legislation to implement the result of our negotiation.

Noble Lords will of course recall that we had a debate on Report of that Bill on the options for a second referendum, an amendment that was defeated by 336 votes to 131—a telling result, perhaps, but not as telling as that of last year’s general election, where the parties committed to respecting the result of the referendum received more than 80% of the vote. Petitions have been brought to the other place for debate on this issue and have failed to garner the support of the House.

I say this: we were given a national mandate and Members must comply with the instructions for exit from the EU. I am sorry if noble Lords are shocked by those words, but they are not mine, they are the words of the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Nick Clegg. Perhaps for the first time in my life, I agree with Nick.

We hold not only that this Bill is not the vehicle for a second referendum but that the European Union Act 2011, put in place by the coalition Government to ensure that referendum would be held regarding future transfers of competence to the EU, is also not a mechanism that can be used to secure such a referendum by stealth. I know that we shall return to this point on another day.

This debate and the issue surrounding a second referendum is about more than the decision to leave the EU; it is about whether the public can trust us politicians. The British people can trust this Government to honour the referendum result. To do otherwise would undermine the decision of the British people, with worrying implications for the perceived legitimacy of our institutions.

[Viscount Hailsham]

Will my noble friend address the question put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Butler? Will the meaningful vote be such as to enable Parliament to vote to stay in the European Union if that is what Parliament wants?

[Lord Callanan]

I covered this point earlier. Parliament has passed the notification of withdrawal Act, to give our notice under Article 50 to withdraw from the European Union. That is the process that we are following; that is the process that was authorised by Parliament.

[Lord Newby]

Is that a yes or a no?

[Lord Callanan]

We have said that once we have negotiated the best deal available, we will bring it back to this Parliament and Parliament will vote on whether it wishes to accept that deal or not.

[Viscount Hailsham]

Can Parliament vote to stay in the European Union?

[Lord Callanan]

No, Parliament authorised us to leave the European Union under the notification of withdrawal Act. We effectively gave two years’ notice under the Article 50 process.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

If there is a vote in either House, particularly the House of Commons, which rejects whatever the Government put forward, what will the Government do?

[Lord Callanan]

In such circumstances—first, we hope that Parliament will not reject it and we will negotiate for the best possible outcome—that would be an instruction to move ahead without a deal.

[Noble Lords]

Ah!

[Lord Callanan]

Well, as I said, under the Article 50 process, we have notified the European Union that we are leaving.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Would the Government equally reject a take-note Motion in the House of Commons on that matter, even if it were carried on a free vote?

[Lord Callanan]

I am not an expert on the proceedings of the other place—I have never been a Member of the House of Commons—but of course the Government will listen to decisions by the House of Commons.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this is a crucial moment. The whole issue here is whether it is a mere Motion or whether there is any legislative oomph—sorry, Hansard—behind the vote that Parliament is to have. Am I absolutely correct that the Minister has just said that even if it is a mere Motion, which is what the Government have offered so far, if the deal was rejected they would still take us out of the European Union at the cliff edge, without a deal?

[Lord Callanan]

We want a deal with the European Union. We have said that we will negotiate for the best possible deal and then we will put that to the House in a Motion. If Parliament approves it then we will bring legislation forward to implement the deal. That is what has been said many times in the other place as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend recall that both David Cameron and the leader of the Opposition wanted to implement Article 50 within days of the referendum result? All this argument suggesting that we have somehow precipitately moved into Article 50, and that the referendum did not give a clear instruction to both the government and opposition parties, is therefore simply froth.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not sure that I would use the word “froth”, but we have had a good debate about this and I am sure we will continue to do so.

Parliament authorised our notification of withdrawal in the Article 50 Bill with a clear majority. That position was supported in the general election when we and the Labour Party both said that we would implement the results of the referendum and, in the process, obtained over 80% of the vote. The Liberal Democrats, of course, said that they would not and got 7% of the vote.

[Baroness Kramer]

I have a question for clarification. Is it now correct for us to interpret, when the Prime Minister or any member of the Cabinet says that there will be a meaningful vote, that the vote will be between whatever has been agreed—good, bad or indifferent—and no deal, and that that is the only choice? Will the Minister explain how that becomes a meaningful vote in the context of the understanding of anybody in either House?

[Lord Callanan]

When we have negotiated the deal it will be an extremely significant moment. We will put that deal to both Houses in a Motion to approve or not, as the case may be. This House has already considered the issue of a second referendum and rejected it. The public rejected it in the last general election.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Is the Minister seriously saying that it would be out of the question for the House of Commons to consider, in addition to whether the deal should be accepted or rejected, whether there should be an attempt to improve the deal or whether it should be put to the people? Are these options to be ruled out altogether? Is it Hobson’s choice? Is it this deal—good, indifferent or bad—or no deal and no question of an extension or trying to improve it, or putting it to the people? If that is the Minister’s position, it is almost as astonishing as the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in his seventh intervention, some time ago, that the people would be outraged if they were given the final decision. I do not know if the Minister thinks that, but what he is saying about the meaningful vote is rather outrageous.

[Lord Callanan]

I am sorry that the noble Lord is outraged, but I am not going to stand here and try to instruct the House of Commons on what to do. It is quite capable of taking its own decisions. Many Members of this House have been Members of the House of Commons. I have not, but I am sure that if they want a vote on any subject they like they are quite capable of deciding the matter themselves.

Our focus now should be on making a success of Brexit, working to get the best deal possible, providing certainty and taking decisions on what kind of country the UK will be in the future. That is the clear instruction given to this Government in both the referendum and the general election. We believe that it is our duty to deliver upon it. A second referendum would pose a—

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I have not heard my noble friend respond to Amendment 357, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. If Spain retains a veto over any of the arrangements with Gibraltar, will the Government bring forward an amendment to the Bill on Report for this House to consider?

[Lord Callanan]

I suspect that we will still be in the process of negotiations at that stage. We have been clear that we are consulting closely with the Government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is leaving the European Union at the same time as the UK is. We are negotiating for the UK and for Gibraltar, in close consultation with its Government. We recently had a ministerial meeting with them, chaired by my honourable friend Robin Walker, and we are keeping them closely informed about the process of the negotiation.

A second referendum would pose a serious risk of undermining our ongoing negotiating position. Worse still, it would prolong the period of uncertainty for businesses and citizens in the UK and EU. These are the unacceptable costs of what my noble friend referred to as a neverendum. In those circumstances, I urge the noble Lords to withdraw or to not move their amendments.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the House has listened to the Minister with amazement over the last 20 minutes. We have had a repeat of the statement made last week, which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, succeeded in highlighting. If we end this process with no deal, there will be no meaningful vote for Parliament, because the only alternative to no deal is to leave on a no-deal basis. That is why there needs to be a safety net of referring the question back to the people. I get the impression that the Government believe that the referendum has given them the right to ignore the will of Parliament and override it by refusing such a meaningful vote. We will certainly come back to that.

There are two clear reasons why a confirmatory referendum should not be denied. The principle has been conceded in the context of triggering the first referendum and, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, only a second referendum could gainsay that. Secondly, we are in the invidious position that Parliament would be asked to overturn the view of the people. That is obviously fraught with difficulties for anybody who is a democrat. Taking that together with the question of a meaningful vote for Parliament, I believe we have to provide the House of Commons with the hook necessary for it to return to this issue after we have finished with the Bill. When there is an opportunity to vote an amendment into this Bill on Report, I hope that we will give Members of Parliament the opportunity to consider a confirmatory referendum, if that appears to them to be the best way forward. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.