Postal Services Bill

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Wednesday 6th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I will speak to Amendments 24EC, 24ED, 24FA and 24GA, which stand in my name, and also to Amendment 24EB.

As my noble friend Lady Drake pointed out, there is, at the point of transfer to the new scheme, no clarity in the Government’s proposals regarding a number of issues that are of great importance to members of the Royal Mail pension plan. To begin with, there is the simple issue of who will be the immediate point of contact for scheme members who have a query or concern. The Secretary of State could, at least initially after the transfer, insist on continuity by having the new scheme administered from the current Royal Mail pension centre in Chesterfield. This would guarantee that the concerns of Royal Mail pension plan members are dealt with by staff who are familiar with those members and their problems. Chesterfield would also be seen as a familiar location, with familiar access points via telephone, email and postal address. Such a simple move would go some way to minimising concern during a difficult period of change for postal workers and retired members.

Equally, there is the question of the future governance of the scheme at the point of transfer. The current trustees of the scheme will end their trusteeship. That means that union members and pensioners will lose their current nominated and elected trustees. Whatever the Government’s intentions on these matters for the future, the fact is that at the point of transfer there will be a loss of representation of Royal Mail pension plan members in the functioning of the scheme. Immediately prior to the transfer, existing trustees will not be in a position to provide the assurances and information that are necessary, and which are outlined in this amendment.

In the other place, the Minister sought to give some reassurances on these questions. The honourable Ed Davey said:

“Because we want to continue the high standard of service and support to which members of the pension plan are accustomed, we want to work with the trustees on ensuring that administration is in place. No final decision has been made on how the new governance scheme will be administered, but it is likely that the Government will look—at least initially—to contract the administration of the new scheme to the existing Royal Mail pension plan administrators in Chesterfield. We are speaking with the trustees about that”.

We welcome that statement, and would welcome some reinforcement of it. That was said on 25 November, but what is the position now? Have the Government considered further the issue of contracting the administration of the new scheme to Chesterfield?

On the issue of the new scheme’s governance, the Minister said:

“We understand the importance of pension scheme members having input into running their scheme; that is absolutely common ground between us. We will therefore consider establishing a governance group with member representation for the new public sector pension scheme for current beneficiaries. When considering this, we will take account of the views of stakeholders and practices in other large public sector pension schemes. For example, the NHS pension scheme and the principal civil service pension scheme”.

He went on to talk about the governance group and it being,

“critical that the public sector pension scheme works with the Royal Mail pension plan, in terms of administration, governance and communication”.

He ended his contribution saying:

“We are absolutely committed to that”.—[Official Report, Commons, Postal Services Bill Committee, 25/11/10; cols. 431-32.]

Again, what progress has been made on this question?

If nearly four months later there is no greater clarity then, far from reassuring Royal Mail pension plan members, the Government will be responsible for having caused them greater concern. The intention of the amendment, as my noble friend Lady Drake said, is not to undermine but to seek clarity by obliging the Secretary of State to address Royal Mail pension plan members directly at the point of their greatest concern—that is, before the changes take place. In the absence of any further clarity from the Government, this amendment is surely profoundly important.

In relation to Amendment 24ED, as we noted in a previous amendment, under Clause 17 the Secretary of State has to make an order for the division of assets because of the separation of the pension schemes. There is no intent to prevent this process through this amendment, but there is concern that the trustees are losing control of hard-earned assets. There has to be a will to co-operate closely with the scheme representatives to ensure that there is a smooth transition in separating the schemes. The Bill gives great discretionary power to the Secretary of State; such power would not normally exist with the private employer in a pension scheme, so in order to demonstrate that there will be some checks on this power, we need a clearer picture of the future governance of the scheme. At this point in time, the Government have not had to make plain any detail about the future governance of the new scheme. Are the Government in a position to elaborate on their current thinking on this issue?

On Amendment 24GA, in Clause 24 there is no obligation on the Secretary of State to consult directly with representatives of the unions in Royal Mail. Although elected from and by union members, the members’ trustees are bound by law to act outside the formal democracy and accountability of trade unions. It has to be said that the practice of the Government is better than the formulation in the Bill. Meetings are taking place between the ministerial team and BIS and the elected officials of the union to discuss the future of the pensions plan. That is necessary and sensible. But nothing in this relationship is guaranteed on the face of the Bill. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that matters between the Government and the unions may take a turn for the worse before the implementation of the new scheme. One hopes that this will not occur, but banking on hope is not a good guide for legislators or those affected by legislation.

I believe that the Government should accept this amendment, because it recognises that the real interests of postal employees have different representative forms. The best practice of this Government is to act on this fact. Now let the Government guarantee this in legislation.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, before I start I should repeat my declaration of an interest in that my wife jointly owns and runs a business which is essentially a web-based mail order company and as such uses Royal Mail for delivery of its product.

Before I turn to the detail of the amendments, it may help if I provide a brief overview of the provisions in Part 2 of the Bill and the intentions behind them. These provisions will allow the Government to take over the historic deficit in the Royal Mail pension plan. As noble Lords are very well aware, the deficit in the Royal Mail pension plan is huge and volatile. As at 31 March 2010, it amounted to £8.4 billion, and the total liabilities in the plan amounted to £34.4 billion. So this pension burden is completely out of proportion to the size of the business. The provisions set out in Part 2 will allow this pension burden to be addressed as part of a package of measures to secure the future of the universal postal service. We propose that responsibility for the deficit will be removed from the business by the transfer of the historic liabilities to a new public pension scheme. Responsibility for ongoing pension accruals and salary-related liabilities will be left with the Royal Mail. Indeed, I think I can say that there is very little difference between this approach and that of the last Government.

[Lord Morris of Handsworth]

The Minister made reference to the liabilities. Could he say a word about the inherited assets?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. As a general point, could I say that we are in Committee? So the noble Lord is free to come in after I have spoken, if he wishes. I do not think that my mental calculator is fast enough, but the assets are the difference between the £34.4 billion liabilities and the £8.4 billion deficit. My maths is failing me, but it is something in the region of £26 billion. But I am sure that divine intervention will bring the exact figure to me shortly.

Royal Mail will also continue to have full responsibility for past and ongoing accruals in the senior executive pension plan. These proposals will safeguard the pension benefits accrued by members and I am sure that all sides of the Committee share that objective. Member protection is paramount and features prominently in the Bill. In particular, Clause 19 provides that benefits—let me be clear, that is the full range of member benefits including increases and payments to dependants—cannot be adversely affected by transfer into the new public scheme. Our proposals are subject to state aid clearance, which is why some of the detail can be provided only in secondary legislation.

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[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for an extremely clear exposition. We started the group with an extremely clear and well expressed amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. I want to ask a question that perhaps cannot be answered this morning: namely, what information has been conveyed from Royal Mail either to Postcomm, as it is at present, or to the Government about the expected experience under the new pension scheme? Pension schemes are very difficult to keep in surplus or in balance if the number of employees is declining or their average age is rising. Royal Mail recently declared that it was going to reduce its staff and workforce and I think has further plans that might lead to that happening again in the future. In my submission it is likely that the new scheme, which is entirely properly set up under the arrangements as described, nevertheless could be threatened with going into deficit at an early date. In looking at that subject, I hope that the Government are also taking account of the comparative costs of pensions to Royal Mail and to other postal operators. As I say, I am not looking to receive a detailed assurance today as this is a new and rather complex point. Nevertheless, at a later stage I might consider it right to revert to this subject.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an extremely important point. The terminology is confusing but I think that he is talking about the RMPP scheme, the old liabilities and assets having been transferred out into what is rather confusingly called the new scheme. Therefore, he is concerned about the ongoing liabilities in the RMPP scheme. I will write to him, but I can tell him that £1.5 billion of funding will be left in the new scheme specifically to cover what is known as the salary link. However, I had better expand on that in writing, if I may.

[Baroness Drake]

My Lords, I hope that I may respond to some of the points made in the debate, particularly to the comments made by the Minister. Before I deal specifically with my own Amendment 24EB, I wish to comment on Amendment 24EC, which was spoken to by my noble friend Lord Young, as this addresses the Secretary of State exercising powers under Clause 17. As far as I can see, there is no explicit requirement on the Secretary of State to consult the trustees when exercising powers under Clause 17. Clause 17 gives the Secretary of State considerable powers. He can divide up the Royal Mail pension plan—not the new scheme but the Royal Mail pension plan—into different sections and allocate assets and liabilities between them, and he can allow different companies to participate in that scheme. The Secretary of State also has the power to determine what assets go on to the balance sheets of companies in preparing for privatisation or in a post-privatisation world.

These matters are of great importance to the trustees of the Royal Mail pension plan, which is left with accruing liabilities, or existing liabilities, that are not transferred to the new scheme. They will be very interested in the strength of the employer covenant backing any section so created, and what it does to the security of the members left in a particular section so created. In the occupational pension world, if you weaken the employer covenant to a particular section, that is a notifiable event—it is not something that you can breeze over. It is what the regulator exists for, which I suspect is why my noble friend raised the issue of the Pensions Regulator.

Hypothetically, if I were an employee of Post Office Ltd and I had accruing rights in the remaining Royal Mail pension scheme, I would want my trustees to be very alert to what assets were left on the balance sheet of Post Office Ltd, because they are the assets—the covenant—that are backing the future benefits or the benefits that are remaining in the Royal Mail pension plan. These are real issues for the trustees. This will remain an occupational pension scheme because, as I thought, the Minister has not said that Crown guarantee carries on in the Royal Mail pension plan.

I do not think that we have clarity about how the Secretary of State can exercise his power under Clause 16 to split up the Royal Mail pension plan and how at the same time the trustees can exercise their power to protect the employees so that their position as creditors or the strength of the employer covenant is not weakened and the members left in a less favourable position.

On Amendment 24EB, I fully recognise that the proposals in the Bill allow for the deficit to be taken over by the Government; that will clearly give a lot of people in the scheme peace of mind. I welcome the Minister’s comment that members’ protection is of great importance. I think I welcome his statement that there will be a comprehensive communication exercise before, during and after the transfer, which is clearly very positive and on the record. However, we still need clarity about what will happen before the transfer. What communication will there be then? If the Government could clarify that, in writing or in some other way, that might deal with the issue.

The Minister referred to the Royal Mail pension plan trustees having statutory obligations to provide information to pension scheme members, and that is absolutely true. However, we have a complex situation in that there is almost a Secretary of State override to impose certain powers or requirements on the Royal Mail pension scheme. The trustees cannot account for that—they cannot explain that. The Government might choose them as the conduit to do that, but they cannot make those decisions or answer the questions that arise because of powers exercised by the Secretary of State.

I anticipated that the inefficiency of double communication might be raised, but I am not persuaded that that is an argument for not allowing people the maximum information prior to transfer. That is the reason for civil servants and Royal Mail pension plan trustees coming up with an efficient communication plan; it is not really a reason for not giving full and proper information prior to transfer.

It would be helpful to obtain greater clarity about the information that would be provided. However, I recognise that the noble Lord was seeking to improve the assurances given on the importance of protecting members’ information.

[Lord De Mauley]

Before the noble Baroness withdraws her amendment, I am happy to provide some clarification on the points she raised. She asked about the Secretary of State being obliged to consult, and I mentioned Clause 17. I apologise if I was not clear enough. The Government’s position is that under the general provisions in Clause 24 the Secretary of State must consult the trustees on the powers set out in Clause 17. I hope that that is helpful.

The noble Baroness also asked about the Crown guarantee. Perhaps I should clarify the Government’s position, which is that an unfunded public sector scheme is a better option, because providing a Crown guarantee would expose the Government, and therefore taxpayers, to significant risks—for example, investment risk—that are not under government control. With a guarantee, it would not be clear as to what liabilities the Government would be taking on, because although they would assume responsibility for the deficit, the Royal Mail trustees would continue to exercise control over investment policy and discretionary powers in relation to benefits to members. Our proposal to establish a new unfunded scheme is consistent with the majority of existing public service pension schemes. The pay-as-you-go model provides members of the Royal Mail pension plan with certainty that their benefits will be paid, while minimising the taxpayers’ exposure to investment risk and future volatility in the scheme’s funding position.

I should say in answer to the noble Baroness’s second broad point that officials have already started to work very closely with the trustees to implement Part 2, including over asset allocation. These discussions are critical in helping the Government to implement the pension solution.

[Baroness Drake]

I thank the Minister for those further clarifications. They are helpful, although they trigger one or two queries. Any further clarity that can be provided in writing would certainly be helpful. I interpreted what the Minister said as the Government putting on record that if they seek to exercise their powers under Clause 17, they will consult the trustees. That is helpful.

My point about the Crown guarantee was that after the transfer of liabilities or accrued rights to the new pension scheme, there remains a Royal Mail pension scheme with either liabilities or accruing liabilities, and it will remain an occupational pension scheme. I sought to clarify whether the Secretary of State would not exercise any powers over that remaining pension scheme in a way that undermined the protections afforded to the Royal Mail pension scheme under the normal range of occupational regulations. That was a key point.

The Minister’s clarifications have been helpful. Ambiguities remain and I am sure that they will be the subject of further discussion. Any clarity that can be given to my noble friend Lord Young on what happens before the transfer would be helpful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord De Mauley]

24F: Clause 21, page 11, line 40, at end insert—
“( ) For the purposes of this section as it applies in relation to the transfer of assets after the relevant time by virtue of a transfer order—
(a) treat the assets as if they had been transferred at the relevant time, but(b) disregard so much of the assets as were transferred to reflect the fact that the assets were not actually transferred at the relevant time.”

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Moved by

[Lord De Mauley]

24G: Clause 23, page 13, line 6, at end insert—
“( ) Information that—
(a) relates to pensions or other benefits under the RMPP or a new public scheme, or(b) relates to the administration of the RMPP or a new public scheme in respect of those pensions or other benefits,may be shared among relevant persons for the purpose of facilitating the administration of the RMPP or new public scheme.( ) “Relevant persons” means—
(a) the Secretary of State,(b) any person who administers, or exercises functions under, a new public scheme,(c) the trustee of the RMPP,(d) any person who exercises functions on behalf of the trustee of the RMPP, or(e) any person who is or has been an employer of a qualifying member of the RMPP.”

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Moved by

[Lord De Mauley]

24GB: Clause 24, page 13, line 17, at end insert—
“( ) Any order under this Part may provide for it (or any of its provisions) to come into force on a specified day.
( ) A “specified day” means a day specified in an order made by the Secretary of State under this subsection (and different days may be specified for different purposes).
Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to an order under this subsection.”

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[Lord Christopher]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but some of the comments made require a response. The noble Lord, Lord Flight, put his finger on one point: we have had much discussion about competition for the universal service when it does not exist and, in my own judgment, never will. However, you need regulation, because science moves on and who knows what might happen?

I was interested in the intervention of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, because I was going to use as a not-too-strong illustration the supermarkets. It is very interesting that they have not come together to provide a universal delivery service; they all do it on their own. Whether they ever will, I do not know, but I think that people would be very worried if we had the system which the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, has just suggested, because the delivery of one’s letter in 24 hours would disappear and it would become increasingly difficult to discover who was responsible for it.

I shall move on to something more practical; the low cost of postage in this country, as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, the Telegraph ran one of its happy headlines about the increase in the price of postage, and now utterly unrealistic correspondence is going on. I should like to put the differences on record. Despite the increase that is about to take place, we are still the second cheapest in Europe and the only country which has a mandatory access service. No other country in Europe has picked that up—not one. The new price of posting a first-class letter in the UK is to be 46p as compared with the following countries, none of which has an access requirement. In Denmark it costs 64p; in Germany 48p; in Belgium 51p; in the Netherlands 38p; in Sweden 58p; in France 50p; in Austria 48p; and in Spain, at the bottom, 30p, which will come as no surprise to anyone who has had experience of its postal service. Whichever company ultimately buys Royal Mail, it will seek to make a profit, so how can we conceivably expect a price structure to exist unless we have some regulation over it? We should be realistic, not only with ourselves but with the country, about the fact that there will continue to be increases in the price of mail in this country.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the essence of this large group of amendments concerns the balance between protecting the universal service on the one hand and allowing competition on the other. We agree that the new regulatory regime must strike the right balance between those two objectives. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed informed views from both ends of that spectrum. Satisfying all noble Lords will be something of a challenge.

The Government’s policy for the mail market is clear: competition is beneficial but must not undermine the universal service. Securing the universal service is therefore the overarching objective of the Bill. Clause 28, which gives Ofcom its primary duties for postal services, and Clauses 37 and 38, which relate to the access regime, are fundamentally important to ensuring that that objective is met.

Amendment 24GC seeks to remove subsection (3) of Clause 28, which ensures that, in performing its primary duty, Ofcom must have regard to the need for the provision of the universal postal service to be both financially sustainable and efficient. It is vital that the Bill ensures that Ofcom considers the impact of all that it does in regulating the market on the long-term financial sustainability of the universal service. None of us would want Ofcom to support the development of the market in a way that would undermine the long-term viability of the universal service. Furthermore, it is common ground that Royal Mail needs to modernise and to become ever more efficient. It is therefore also important that the financial sustainability requirement is balanced by a duty to have regard to the need for efficiency. Clause 28(3) is therefore a vital part of the new regulatory framework that we are creating.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, suggested that there will be pressure to remove parts of the universal service that are not efficient. The requirements to have regard to both financial sustainability and efficiency apply to the universal service as a whole; it is both inevitable and in the nature of any universal service that some parts of it will be profitable and will need to cross-subsidise those parts that are not. There is nothing in the approach set out in the Bill that could or would lead to every individual component of the universal service needing to be profitable in itself—although, obviously, Royal Mail would hope that they could be. The Bill seeks to ensure that the universal service as a whole is financially sustainable and that it is delivered efficiently to the requirements and standards set.

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[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I was not referring to the cost of Postcomm. I was referring to the cost that fell on the Royal Mail from complying with the regulatory requirements of Postcomm. That is the point that was made to me. I was astonished at the size of the figure, but I accepted what was being said.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his clarification. I hope that I can reassure him that under the current regime, under the Postal Services Act 2000, any operators providing services within the scope of the universal service that have significant turnover are obliged to contribute to the costs. That will be the case under this Bill as well.

The debate that we have heard today, for which I thank noble Lords on all sides for their helpful and knowledgeable contributions, demonstrates that a case can be made to move the access regime in either direction. However, I strongly believe that the provisions in the Bill set the right framework for access—one that supports competition but not at the expense of the universal service. I am of the firm view that Clauses 37 and 48 strike the right balance and, when combined with other powers in the Bill, give Ofcom the tools to ensure a better and more effective access regime. I hope, therefore, that after this rather lengthy explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

As a matter of historical accuracy, I did not play a prominent part in dealing with the previous Bill. That was done by my noble friends Lord Mandelson and Lord Tunnicliffe, although I was part of the Government.

[Lord De Mauley]

I withdraw my remarks.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I felt that the Minister’s comments were helpful. He has agreed to take away some issues, which would be useful. He stressed the importance of ensuring that competition does not undermine the universal service provision or the role of the universal service provider. It is important to hear those remarks and to have them put on the record. I also welcome the response that he made to the amendment spoken to by my noble friend Lord Brooke. Reserving the right to look carefully at the record and at any further correspondence from the Minister, as well as amendments that may come on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I can understand why my noble friend tabled his amendment, given his long association which started at the GPO—an association which I shared, although not on the postal but on the telecoms side, so we both have a long-standing and abiding interest. We want Royal Mail to have the ability to be profitable as the universal service provider meeting its universal service obligation. That has been the Government’s aim in removing the burden of the pension and in making it clear in today’s comments that they are in favour of competition, but not to the point that it undermines the Royal Mail’s ability to function. If that “profitable” was to take into account the full costs of providing the universal service obligation, we could see the benefit of that. There are some concerns about what implications there might be when that test is applied, such as on stamp tariffs et cetera, but I will certainly be interested to hear the Minister’s response to this amendment.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, Amendment 24GD, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Clarke of Hampstead, seeks to delete “financially sustainable” from Clause 28(3), and replace those words with “profitable”. If I may say so, he makes an important point, as do my noble friend Lady Kramer and the noble Lords, Lord Christopher and Lord Young. There was a long discussion in Committee in the other place over whether financially sustainable meant “profitable”. The Minister for Postal Affairs put it on the parliamentary record, and I would like to do the same today, that this Government absolutely seek for Royal Mail to be a profitable company. Part of the problem and the threat to the universal postal service is that, under the way in which the previous Government managed the postal services sector, Royal Mail has not been making profits and has been a drain on the taxpayer, so at the heart of this concept is the belief that to be sustainable the universal service must make a return for its provider. The only alternative, after all, is perpetual taxpayer subsidy, which is not a realistic, acceptable solution.

Importantly, in addition, “financially sustainable” is a broader concept than simply “profitable”. A company can be profitable in the short term but not necessarily financially sustainable; equally, it can make losses in the short term but have a sustainable future. As I have said, it will be for Ofcom to determine what needs to be taken into consideration when having regard to financial sustainability: the ability to earn a rate of return on investment; profitability; the setting of prices; long-term market volumes, and so on.

As I said in response to the previous group of amendments, the arguments that have already been made on Clause 28 and Ofcom’s duties, both in your Lordships’ House and the other place, have persuaded me to revisit Ofcom’s regulatory duties. The protection of the universal service is of paramount importance and we understand that we must get this absolutely right. That is the very reason why we are taking action and why we brought the Bill forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Clarke, in particular has unrivalled experience of the postal sector and I am always grateful for his contributions to our debates. He made some excellent and important points and I will reflect on them further when considering this issue. Given my commitment to look again at the issue and to bring forward proposals on Report, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw Amendment 24GD.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, and my noble friend Lord Young for their contributions. I did not do this as a perverse way of having a voice today. I simply believe that we have a chance to look at history and not make the same mistake again. That is why I am particularly pleased to hear what the Minister has just said about revisiting the whole question of the regulatory responsibilities of Ofcom. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

My Lords, I was encouraged, and I hope rightly so, by the Minister’s response that this matter would be considered between now and Report. Will that consideration include ensuring that we are not faced with Ofcom regulating after the sale, and that we have cover for the sale itself? If I had that assurance, I would be delighted to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord De Mauley]

I am sorry. May I ask the noble Baroness to repeat that? I was having words in my right ear.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

I noticed that the noble Lord was somewhat distracted. My concern on this amendment is that if, on looking at the indebtedness of a potential USP, the Government come forward with a wholly acceptable measure, they do not do so after the boat has sailed—in other words, not after the sale. That is because the debt level which may or may not be raised by whatever model the Government decide on for the sale could still burden the company, although there would be provision for the future. Will the Minister please take that into account when he considers the matter before Report?

[Lord De Mauley]

Of course, my Lords.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

I thank the Minister very much for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.