Lord Dubs
Main Page: Lord Dubs (Labour - Life peer)Housing and Planning Bill
Lord Dubs Excerpts“Code of practice for subterranean development works
(1) A local planning authority may promulgate a code of practice on the excavation and construction of a subterranean development with a view to lessening the adverse impact of the excavation and construction on adjacent properties and their owners and occupiers and on the wider neighbourhood.(2) The code may include, but need not be limited to, the provisions listed in Schedule (provisions in local authority code of practice for subterranean development).(3) Local planning authorities shall take account of any guidance issued by the Secretary of State in drawing up such a code of practice.(4) If a local planning authority has promulgated such a code, it may make the granting of planning consent for a subterranean development conditional on the developer undertaking to abide by the code or specified elements of it.”
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group. If I can make a slightly irrelevant comment, if the EU working time directive were to apply to Ministers in this House, the two Ministers who are dealing with this Bill might be better treated than they are now. That is a dig at the Chief Whip.
There cannot be many occasions when an amendment commands the support of all parties in this House and of most Members of Parliament, would command widespread support from many parts of London and possibly other parts of the country where people are affected and which, were the Minister to agree to the amendment or something like it, would mean that she would be serenaded in the headlines of the Evening Standard. That is a pretty good win-win, and there cannot be many of those around, so later on I will give the Minister a chance to say that she accepts this amendment.
If I were a Minister, I would not understand why officials were advising me not to accept the amendment because there is nothing wrong with it. It is absolutely right in terms of local democracy for local people to have a say and right in terms of good governance in the benefits to London and other parts of the country. It is a total win-win for the Government. I should have kept this amendment until there was a Labour Government, and they could have benefited from it, but I have generously given it to the Minister today.
Given the widespread support, outside people have got on to me. I pay particular tribute to the Ladbroke Association and its chair Sophia Lambert who has been extremely helpful and has given me and other people a lot of advice. The amendments in this group are actually a complete Bill. If the Minister were to adopt them, or much of them, her officials would have been saved a great of work in drafting something. Not only has there been widespread support, but there have been many previous instances in this House when Members have put forward legislation with similar proposals. I am thinking of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, Lord Jenkin of Roding, the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who have all tabled amendments to Bills. The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, has also tabled an excellent Bill himself with the help of surveyors from the Pyramus and Thisbe Club. In the Commons, several MPs have put this forward as well, including Karen Buck, MP for Westminster North. Essentially, this proposal goes across parties; I hope that the Government will feel able to support it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I join the noble Lord opposite in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on his tenacity last night; not leaving until, I think, gone midnight. My heart sank when I realised that he would not get on to have his say.
The noble Lord was one of the first people I met when I came into this House and we share a common interest. I have great sympathy for anyone who suffers some of the things he talks about. We have discussed the Death Star basement in this House, and the collapsing mansion, so I am not in any way denying that these issues exist and I thank the noble Lord for bringing them to the House’s attention. But of course I am going to disappoint him because I am going to tell him that the powers that he has described already exist. In fact, in some cases they are being implemented.
Local authorities are already able to prepare codes of practice for subterranean works in their area, and many prepare area-specific guidance to help owners ensure that they carry out the works legally and safely with a minimum impact on neighbours. As this amendment replicates powers that already exist, it is unnecessary to include it in the Bill.
I turn to Amendment 101BC. Local planning authorities are able to bring forward specific local plan policies limiting the scope of basement development if they consider that such developments are a particular issue in their area. In such cases, any planning application should then be determined in accordance with that policy. Basement development is not an issue in most local authorities, although I accept what the noble Lord said—that it is coming to an authority near him. But we know that local authorities in areas which are particularly affected by basement developments, such as Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster, are already in the process of introducing appropriate local plan policies to mitigate the impacts of such developments.
We have looked at a graph of how the trend appears to be going. What we are seeing now—to put it in context—is the hangover from previous permissions that are nevertheless causing distress in the area. I would be very interested to see how things look in, say, six months to a year from now. The amendment is therefore not necessary for the same reasons that I have explained for Amendment 101BB.
With regard to Amendment 101BD, the Party Wall etc. Act provides legal protections to owners of adjoining properties, but it is not in place to protect owners beyond next door, as there is unlikely to be damage to properties beyond the current distances set out in the Act. Similarly, introducing a new offence, as this amendment proposes, would not provide any greater protection to adjoining owners. In any case, there is no evidence of significant numbers of cases where notices required under the Act are not being given in respect of subterranean developments.
In addition, the amendment before us would introduce a new liability that goes beyond those currently imposed under the Limitation Act 1980. It would be difficult to justify singling out subterranean development over other forms of development for this enhanced liability. The Party Wall etc. Act applies to most subterranean development work and already provides for security for expenses to be covered by the award between the parties. Therefore, Amendment 101BE is also not necessary.
The noble Lord made the point that noise is not usually dealt with in planning permission. However, local authorities can consider local impacts, including noise pollution, when granting planning permission. The NPPF deals with noise, stating that, where relevant, it should be considered by the local authority in its planning decision. The noble Lord made the point that the GPDO allows basement development, but it is for individual local planning authorities to determine if development is within the scope of national permitted development rights.
The noble Lord also made the point that the Article 4 process is too burdensome and bureaucratic, and so local authorities are unlikely to follow that approach. It can take six to 12 months, but it is not particularly burdensome or bureaucratic—if I had eyes in the back of my head, I would probably see my noble friend behind me shaking his head—although I accept that this is a particular problem in particular parts of the country.
I turn now to Amendments 101BF, 101BG and 101BH. As I have already set out in response to the noble Lord’s previous, related amendments, and as I have just said, basement developments are not an issue in all local authority areas. Existing powers are in place which enable local authorities to adopt an appropriate local approach to mitigate the impacts of such developments where necessary. Similarly, existing legislation protects adjoining property owners from the potential impact of such developments. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate. I know that there are others who, because of the timing this morning, were probably not aware we were doing this now and would otherwise have been here. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for what she said and I very much agree with her. Amendment 101BH suggests a schedule of provisions for a local authority code of practice, in which one of the issues is,
“the hours of construction and excavation, and ... particularly noisy types of construction and excavation”.
That could deal with both the time of starting and weekend working, although it may need strengthening. I agree entirely with the principles that she put forward about weekends and the starting time. I think she had a third point, but I am not quite sure what it was. I am sorry.
Lord Dubs
Yes, presumption. Frankly, if the Minister were to accept the principle, I would be happy to drop the word “presumption”. I put it in because of the sheer frustration felt by people who approached me saying, “For heaven’s sake, just stop all these things”. Most people would like that presumption, but if it made for better law, the word would not have to be there. I think local authorities would understand what they could do.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, for the examples that he has given me, and to the noble Lord, Lord True, with whom I have had a discussion on this. He speaks with the authority of being leader of an important London borough. If he feels that his powers are insufficient to deal with the problem, I have to say, with due respect to what the Minister said, that we have to listen to local authority leaders. They are the ones in the firing line and who want to do best for the people in their community. That is what they are elected for. I mentioned earlier that I bumped into the leader of Camden Council, who said the same thing. She said that, despite the powers that the Minister said local authorities have, there are not enough: they need more powers to deal with these things. I asked whether I could quote her and she said yes. That conversation took place at about 10 am this morning, so it is hot off the press.
To deal with the comments that the Minister made, clearly her view is that powers already exist. Frankly, they do not. She said that local authorities could prepare codes. Yes, they can, but they are not enforceable. The point of the codes in my amendment is that they are enforceable. Local authorities can have these codes, but they cannot make them happen. I do not want to get into a long debate on the Party Wall etc. Act. All the advice that I have had is that it is insufficient for this purpose. It does some good things, but it does not deal with all the problems I described. I have to act on the advice that I have been given from people who know more about it.
Lord True
The noble Lord is quite right about the code. We have a code, but the question is enforcing it. I should have made clear on Article 4, which he has not mentioned, that using Article 4 directions, in any case, is chasing the game, in football parlance, and takes time. You then cannot charge a fee, so in many cases you immediately lose the ability even to charge a fee for processing the planning application, which is then necessary under an Article 4 direction.
Lord Dubs
I am most grateful. That deals with most of the other arguments.
I hate to put it this way but I think that the Minister has been trapped by her civil servants. I have been a Minister; I know what happens. Sometimes you just have to say, “No, I’m not happy, you’re pushing me into a position that I don’t want to be in, because in my heart of hearts I believe in a modification of policy”. That is what I said. I cannot help thinking that, if the Minister were to reflect, she would say that the weight of opinion is entirely against her and against the advice that she has been given. These are not things that I have invented. Local authority leaders are individuals of substance. They are elected to represent their areas and they want to do what is best for them, so this is not some political fantasy. It goes across the party divide. It is not something that the Labour Party has invented. In fact, far more Conservatives have approached me than Labour people. So I am not being at all partisan on this.
I would just like the Minister to think again, otherwise we will have to have this debate again on Report. I would much rather we debated a proposal from the Government. Then I would be happy to say, “Fine, that’s good”. I am happy to give way.
Lord Dubs
I am so sorry. We are all a bit tired after yesterday evening. I misunderstood that.
I am not happy about this. The weight of opinion is against the Minister. I deeply regret the line that she is taking. I hope that she will pause to reflect over Easter, otherwise I will have to bring this back. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.