Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

I have two things to say very briefly about this. On Second Reading, I think I made it clear that I did not approve of Clause 18. I did not think that it was needed, as it seemed to me purely declaratory. It did not add anything or take anything away from the law; it was a statement of what the law was—and it is perfectly clear that we all knew what the law was, and we all know what it is. So I was a little surprised to see the terms of the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. If we have to have a declaratory clause of this sort on this issue, I would vastly prefer his drafting than the original government drafting, but I accept and would vote for the amendment with some considerable reluctance. In my limited experience of declaratory clauses, which is not as great as that of the noble and learned Lord, on the whole clauses that are meant to clarify the law very frequently have precisely the opposite effect. I am doubtful about it and do not like it, but in the end I will support it.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I rise with some trepidation, as I am not a lawyer. I have not been entirely satisfied by the arguments that have been put forward by both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and other eminent lawyers in the House that we can rely entirely on the 1972 Act and the fact that apparently subsequent legislation depends on the definitions in that Act, to the effect that the 1972 Act covers all relevant legislation.

The noble and learned Lord made the point that there was very little difference between his position and that of the Government in this territory, so I wonder what is wrong with taking a belt and braces approach to this matter. If I understand the position, there are other sources in relation to subsequent Acts that are as drafted not wholly dependent on the 1972 Act, and EU law can be given legal effect in the UK by secondary delegated legislation and not just by primary legislation.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I realise the noble Lord is not a lawyer and what I am about to say may seem unfair, but the answer to what is wrong with his suggestion is that the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in the cases of Macarthys v Smith and Factortame have made the legal position perfectly plain. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is right in saying that we do not need Clause 18, but if we are going to have it we may as well have it stating the law as declared by our judges.

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[Lord Flight]

I should probably defer to the noble Lord, but I do not think that was a full answer to my mind to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, or to the whole issue of judges subsequently choosing to interpret the position with regard to the martyrs’ case. It seems perfectly possible in theory that there may be a House of Lords judgment which is perfectly valid and accepted at the time it is given, but subsequently manages to get twisted by the interpretation of particular judgments by noble Lords. I come back to the rather straightforward point, which is that from the point of view of those who wish to have this territory absolutely nailed, what is wrong with a belt and braces approach?

[Lord Deben]

I would not like it to be thought by your Lordships that those who were not lawyers disagreed with the lawyers. As a non-lawyer, it seems to me to be very clear that there is a good reason why we should not have the additional parts: it is misleading to have them. It suggests that the additional parts have the same validity and strength as the central issue of the 1972 Act. I would account it as the proudest moment of my parliamentary history when I voted for that Act—it was the moment when we achieved the thing that in all my young life I longed to achieve, which was the beginning of closer European unity, for which I have always stood. I do not want that Act to be removed from its pedestal place. It is the Act that says, very clearly, that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state, and from its sovereignty it grants this particular place for European legislation. Should at some future time a Government, in foolishness almost unimaginable, decide that they did not wish to continue with that Act this sovereign Parliament could, by repealing that Act, change the circumstances—and change them of its own strength, volition and powers.

This is a declaratory statement. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that it is not necessary but given that it has been raised, it becomes necessary. Now that it is necessary it is crucial that it should be extremely clear. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has given a great opportunity to this House to unite around something which should not divide those on either side of the European divide, or indeed those in the general mishmash in the middle. The worry which I have—this is why I have become less happy in the mean time—is the question which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, raised earlier: if the Government do not accept this as a reasonable matter, what is it that is hidden in that alternative? For this must be right and if it is not, the rest is wrong.

I shall say one thing to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. If his worry is a real one, he is worried by either of the statements before us. If his worry is a real one and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, got it wrong, the fact is that he would be wrong about the Government’s formulation as well. Although I therefore have sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, he cannot defeat his problem by preferring the one against the other. To defeat his problem, he would have to initiate some extra bit to the Act to make it clear. I do not believe that is necessary but his intervention, although admirable, is really not about the division between these two formulations, so I pray that your Lordships’ House will support the amendment.

However, I would like it even more if the Government were to say that they thought, on balance, it would be better to go with what is clearly a widely held feeling in all parts of the House and with those who are in favour and those who are against our membership of the European Union.

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, as I said on Second Reading, I think that this Bill is a “thus far and no further” Bill, and therefore it is to be welcomed. However, it is also a “shutting the stable door” Bill, because the European Union already has all the powers it needs to continue down its very unfortunate path towards complete integration, in the teeth of the growing opposition of the people of Europe.

[Lord Flight]

May I suggest to the noble Lord that perhaps the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, opposes the Bill is that it represents a potential barrier on the movement towards complete European integration which is his objective?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord—my noble friend, if I may refer to him as such—for pointing that out, and he pointed it out much better than I did. That is true: the movers of this amendment and the people who oppose this Bill do actually want an integrated superstate of Europe run entirely by the political class, having destroyed the democracies of Europe—which was always the big idea behind the project.

The movers of this amendment and those who will support it are attempting to swim against the tide of opinion here and in Europe. That tide in the end will prove irresistible, so I oppose this attempt to do so.