Marriages and Civil Partnerships (Approved Premises) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

Moving on to my next point, when I last spoke on this subject, when we really were debating an issue of conscience in this House, I told the House that in my family I have a daughter who is in a gay relationship. She and her partner have a civil partnership and I am fortunate enough to have two wonderful and very energetic grandsons, who are part of that very nuclear indeed family, if I can be forgiven that phrase. However, it goes further than that. The reason I mention my daughter is that she is also a lawyer. She is a solicitor who, among her work, takes a great deal of interest and has much activity in all aspects of the law that reflect the lives of gay men and lesbian women. Therefore, naturally, I have turned to my daughter Eve to see if she can help with what the view of gay lawyers and the gay community is on this issue. Gay lawyers believe this: “No one is demanding that religious institutions hold civil partnerships; no one is saying that they must honour any gay couple’s request to celebrate their civil partnerships within the traditions of that religion. What this is about is allowing religious civil partnerships if everyone involved is in agreement”. That is the overwhelming view of lawyers who advise gay people, sometimes other gay people, and that is what these provisions say.

[Lord Framlingham]

The noble Lord will appreciate that the debate today has been legalistic—because this is obviously what this Chamber does—but the ramifications outside the Chamber may not be legalistic. On the point that the noble Lord is making about allowing, will he agree that to allow, although it is not to encourage or force on people, can sometimes have that effect. That is my concern having seen that many Acts of Parliament have had effects that we were not aware of. I believe that if we are not careful, this one will bring the kind of pressure to bear on Church of England priests that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn has indicated.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

I respectfully but absolutely reject the contention that has just been made. Indeed, it is somewhat similar to the contention made by my noble friend Lord Cormack, who spent a great number of years as a very distinguished Member of another place. He often had to wrestle between his principles and his interests, as all Members of Parliament do, and I doubt that he found it more difficult than any Church of England or other priest or other religious official would find it to stick to his conscience when his conscience told him what was right, particularly when supported by the institution to which he belongs.

Finally, my noble friend Lord Lester mentioned the decision of the House of Lords as a court in Pepper v Hart. That is the one matter that was omitted earlier and is of very great importance. In the event of somebody being prepared to take the financial risk of bringing what in reality would be a completely hopeless case before the courts, it is beyond peradventure that the statement that we know will be made by my noble friend Lord Henley from the Front Bench today, because we have been given a trail of it, would be cited in court and would be extremely influential in the determination of any ambiguity. I therefore respectfully suggest to your Lordships that we have actually taken a great deal of time today, albeit in a very interesting debate, in discussing something that is really not a problem at all.