House of Lords: Reform

Lord Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hoyle]

My Lords, it is interesting to follow the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, particularly as he has been a Chief Whip. It was quite interesting to hear his views on the list system. I agree with him, but I think that it should be an open list system. Many people who are here and who were in the Commons were selected by the party, which is a list system in itself.

This has been a very interesting debate. My noble friend Lady Royall spoke with great candour in opening the debate. She said that there would be differences of opinion on our side. When the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was speaking as the Leader of the House, I thought that there were stony faces behind him. I did not expect that there would be much support from the people behind him for the proposal for an elected House. I am in favour of a 100 per cent elected House. However, it is not the division on those Benches that is surprising but the division on the Liberal Democrat Benches. There it is: the Deputy Prime Minister has brought this forward, yet the difference of opinion that we have heard today is quite large. There is quite a difference between the views of the Members who sit on those Benches, which in itself is interesting.

Having said that I would like a 100 per cent elected House, I am not in favour of the proposals before us, because this needs to be thought through. My noble friend Lord Grocott said that he might be described as a dinosaur, but I could not think of anybody less like a dinosaur than him, because he has always believed in democracy and the primacy of the lower House. Nevertheless, he has a point: the one thing that I do not believe has been thought through is the relationship between the two Houses if this comes to pass. A lot more consideration of that needs to be built in, because it is quite right that, if you have an elected House, it is bound to demand more authority and more powers. Not enough attention has been given to that in the proposals that have come forward.

Another thing that has not been mentioned is the relationship with the established church, which will have its numbers reduced from 26 to 12. You could debate whether there should be any representatives at all, or more, but why has the number gone down from 26 to 12? You could also have a good debate, if we were discussing this, on whether more religions should be represented in the upper Chamber. I see the nods coming from the Benches opposite. That could be discussed and soundings could be taken with other churches. However, why there should suddenly be an arbitrary change from 26 to 12 I am at a loss to understand or begin to explain.

As I say, on these Benches we have been quite honest in saying where we stand and what we believe. There are many questions about what has been brought forward. How do we do it? I agree and have always agreed that there should be a mandate. This House should have a mandate from the public—the electorate—but I agree completely with my noble friend Lord Sewel when he asks, “What kind of mandate is 15 years?”. Once a person has been elected, what relationship will they have with the electorate? There can be no relationship. Imagine somebody being given 15 years and being told, “Come on lads—you can do what you want in those 15 years”. You can imagine that they will, but it will bear no relationship to a democratic House if they then have no contact whatsoever with the electorate and know that they are going at the end of 15 years. That seems to be nonsense if we believe in having an elected House, because there ought to be some mandate for those who have been elected. As many noble Lords have asked today, why change it if that is what you are going to do? That proposal in itself is wrong.

This has been an interesting discussion. The noble Lord, Lord St John of Fawsley, said that there was repetition. However, we are only half way through, so this is all going to be repeated tonight and again tomorrow, with another 51 speeches the same. I am sorry for all of us who sit in this House, because we shall have to listen to it whether we like it or not.

This committee has a big job on. It is right that this issue is going to a committee to look at. The committee will decide what is right and wrong with the Bill and how it can be strengthened, then it can bring it back. At the moment, having thought it through and believing that there ought to be an elected House, I think that this is a dog’s dinner. I do not believe that this is what is needed and I certainly reject the idea that anybody who comes in should have 15 years to do whatever they want and go at the end of it. If we are going to have that, I ask again, as somebody who believes in an elected House, why change it at all?

I will listen with interest to the repetition that may occur. We have a lot of that to come but I feel that this Bill, while it goes part of the way to meeting my demands, is ill thought out and ill conceived. The committee should look at it carefully and I hope that it will come back with more positive proposals than we have contained in this draft Bill.