Bus Services Bill [HL]

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I too very much welcome this Bill. It is an opportunity to discuss, debate and I hope improve what I think has been one of the rather forgotten parts of the transport industry. I was interested in the background that came from the Minister and from the noble Lord, Lord Low, regarding comments made by Andrew Jones MP, the Minister, about the intended growth numbers on buses.

The main thing that is missing—there are probably many others—is a long-term vision and a strategy. There is one for railways, one for roads—the strategic road network—and I shall come on to the Government’s published cycling and walking strategy, but there does not seem to be one for bus transport. As we have heard from many noble Lords, it is a growing part of the demand for transport. It is interesting that only 18 months ago—in a Written Answer on 24 November 2014—the Department for Transport was forecasting a 25% drop in bus usage by 2040. There is a similar growth in car usage, so are the Government expecting bus usage to go up or are they just hoping that there will be fewer buses on the road to stop their big fat cars going down?

Today, the All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group, of which I am secretary, had its annual parliamentary bike ride to try to encourage more people to cycle. We also launched a response to the Government’s excellent cycling and walking strategy. It could be better but it is not bad. It was interesting that this morning the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, who famously in about 1980 told the unemployed that they should get on their bikes, wrote to the co-chair of our All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group, Ruth Cadbury MP, in the following terms:

“I was sorry to read in your recent circular of your proposal to increase peak hour traffic congestion in central London on Wednesday”,

which is today. This is because of the bike ride. He continued:

“Not only is that a nuisance, but by increasing congestion it will increase pollution”.

We had 150 bikes going through Hyde Park, increasing the pollution. He suggested that we should “cancel this foolish exhibition”.

More recently, Iain Duncan Smith as a Minister in 2010, told the unemployed in Merthyr Tydfil that they should get on a bus to Cardiff where there were plenty of jobs. I do not know whether it is a long-term view of the Conservative Party that only the unemployed and disadvantaged—presumably this includes the disabled disadvantaged—should have to go by bike.

It would be nice to see a strategy that was a bit more positive and recognised the great importance of buses in moving people around, as many noble Lords said. That is also reflected in the number of Questions and Statements about this issue in this House and the other place. We can compare the number of Questions about rail services with those about bus services. I have not worked it out, but it is probably about 20:1. Actually, buses are probably more important for many people than rail services. There are more than 4 billion passenger journeys by bus a year. It is just that there is a pretty awful service in many places outside London, as many Lords said. There is a lot more to do. I would love to see the Minister commit to introducing and publishing a draft strategy for buses. It would be even nicer if that were put in the Library before we move into Committee. That would help us all, including the industry, to work out what investment plans it should have and how it should respond to this Bill, and, I hope, move things forward a bit faster.

Turning to a few issues that we need to address in future, several noble Lords mentioned through-ticketing. It is very nice that Clause 7 of the Bill says that a local transport authority or others,

“may make a ticketing scheme”.

Now, of course, “may” covers a multitude of sins. Why should they not have a ticketing scheme? Why should we not be able to buy a ticket from here to Cornwall—like my noble friend Lord Woolmer, I shall talk about Cornwall in a few minutes—on several different bus routes? If you are clever, you could probably get that as a pensioner for nothing but that is a separate issue. Why should we not be able to buy tickets in advance? You can on the railways. You can get a through-ticket from Penzance to John O’Groats, or wherever, if you really want. You can also get tickets on local services. We even have the Gatwick-London service on Oyster now. Why should we not have the same on buses and be able to integrate them with trams and railways? That really should be possible. I know it is possible technically. There are even people talking about buying railway journeys across Europe with one ticket, which is quite a challenge. We should change “may” to “must” in the Bill, and also include the smaller services in rural areas. We can debate whether that extends to Uber or any other taxi service but there is a lost opportunity here.

I will not comment much on Cornwall, even though I live there, because my noble friend dealt with it so excellently. However, you have small operators and big operators, and there is an opportunity for what we might call open-access operators to operate on similar routes to franchised operators. That is extremely challenging on the railways. Whether it can be made possible on the bus services I do not know but we will need to investigate that. Of course, we do not really have a regulator of bus services, as we do for railways. Who will act as regulator? Will it be the councils? Yet, no councils will be vetting franchises because apparently they are not clever enough. They should be able to, as other noble Lords said. There is also the question of whether community interest companies have a role to play in operating not-for-profit smaller services— minibuses, shared taxis—or even bigger buses in rural areas. Again, what authority—if there is one—will specify the content, services and everything else? Does there need to be one? That is a debate we must have.

The Minister has not said anything about the role of Transport Focus, which a year or two ago had its remit extended beyond railways to include buses. That body does an extremely good job and is independent. It occasionally has a go at services and Ministers in its reports. I hope the Minister can tell us that it will have an independent role in monitoring performance, quality, fares, reliability and all the things that customers want.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

I am fascinated by, and very sympathetic to, the arguments my noble friend is putting forward. Does he agree that one of the interesting and vivid examples of the interdependence of bus and rail services for those of us who are regular rail users is the number of times at weekends when we set out by rail but have a very good experience of bus services on the way?

[Lord Berkeley]

My noble friend hits the nail on the head. One could say many things about that. The railways must get a lot better at keeping services going or diverting trains by some other route. I have travelled to Cornwall a lot and on some routes the operator has the bus services much better organised than was the case five years ago. However, there is always room for improvement. My noble friend is absolutely right, but at least in that case you are still using the same ticket, whereas if you got on a bus from one station to another you would probably have to buy another ticket.

I turn to the Isles of Scilly service, which I mentioned briefly in the debate on the Queen’s Speech. My noble friend Lord Judd has hit the nail on the head because if you want to travel to the Isles of Scilly between Sunday and Monday on the excellent Great Western Railway’s sleeper service, it conveniently arrives five minutes after the “Scillonian” has departed from Penzance. I have been on about this for about five years. Why cannot the relevant service leave an hour earlier? Apparently, it is again something to do with digging up the railways. It could leave an hour earlier because not many people have pressing business in London at 11.30 on a Sunday night. However, that has still not happened. One has to question why. I may or may not table an amendment on this issue—this is a buses Bill—but if the words “and ferries” were added to the Bill, you could cover some of the issues relating to the ferry service between Penzance and the Isles of Scilly, which operates only in the summer when the prices shoot up, and try to co-ordinate the timetable with the rail service to Penzance. However, that seems to be beyond the means of most humans.

There will be a lot to debate in Committee. I welcome the opportunity offered by the Bill to have some good discussions. I congratulate the Government on bringing forward a measure that is more useful to most inhabitants of this country than one on launching rockets into space, which I think is the only other Department for Transport Bill that we were promised in the Queen’s Speech.

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[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the great thing about the contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, is that they are always rooted in social reality.

Certainly some parts of the Bill should help to make a situation which overall is totally inadequate, less inadequate. But there are big issues within it which we shall have to scrutinise very carefully. There is the contradiction between the Government’s commitment to decentralisation and localism and the reality of what is proposed. There is the issue of a still further concentration of powers in the hands of the Secretary of State. There is the question of whether service or profit remains dominant. There is the contrast between London and the rest of the country. There is the crucial issue of how the Bill helps the physically and mentally challenged and those less affluent, not least those struggling for higher or further education, many of whom are often at financial breaking point.

I wish to raise one issue which, frankly, leaves me puzzled. I declare an interest as vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks. The Government have repeatedly said—it is cheering to hear them say it—that they understand the value of this precious national asset and that they support it fully. They have gone out of their way to say this. At the launch of the national parks strategy plan, Rory Stewart said:

“I’d like to make sure that everyone in Britain and more visitors from around the world have the unique experience of going to our National Parks”.

That strategy has as its central objective increasing the diversity and number of visitors; it hopes to move from 90 million to 100 million people a year.

The statutory purposes of the parks are set out in the Environment Act 1995 and are to conserve and enhance natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage and to promote opportunities for public enjoyment and understanding of their special qualities. Public transport contributes to both of these objectives, ensuring that everyone can visit national parks while also providing an alternative option for residents and visitors who own cars that would reduce the impact of car traffic on the environment.

High volumes of traffic already have a negative impact on the tranquillity and natural environment of some of our national parks. Providing good bus services ensures that increased numbers of people can visit without damaging the special qualities that these areas provide.

The importance of this is perhaps well illustrated by one of the respondents to a recent survey by CNP of the public’s views on national parks. The respondent said:

“At peak times they could not be further away from many preconceived ideas of what a national park should be. Rather than peace and tranquillity there are traffic jams, stressed tourists and creaking infrastructure”.

There are contrasts in what practically can be done. Examples include the Dalesbus network of routes, which provides links between the Yorkshire Dales and local towns and cities and is managed and supported by volunteers. The Moorsbus service on the North York Moors is also managed and supported by volunteers. There is the Breeze up to the Downs network of buses, linking Brighton with the South Downs, which is provided by a partnership between the national park authority, the local transport authority, the bus company and the National Trust. There is also the Beach Bus in the New Forest, which is well used by local people and which is provided by the national park authority working in partnership with the bus operator.

The Campaign for National Parks recently asked people to tell them about their experience of using buses in national parks and received lots of stories that illustrate the value of these bus services for individuals and for the rural economy. For example:

“We visited village shops and tearooms, inns and hotels, the scope was endless, once people realise what they can do and how social it is to travel by bus with like-minded people, the Moorsbus from York often was full and standing. The happy, contented and slightly sleepy bus on the return was a perfect advert for wellbeing”.

However, it is sad that recent cuts to local authority budgets have had a devastating impact on the availability of bus services in many rural areas. Some national parks such as Exmoor now have very limited bus services. In addition, even some of the most successful services are now at risk as those operating them struggle to obtain the funding they need to continue. There is a real danger, for example, that the Dalesbus will not survive beyond 2017 unless a major new source of financial support can be found.

There is a recognition in the Bill that LTAs wishing to take up the new franchising or partnership powers should consult other local authorities whose area would be affected by their plans. These requirements are covered in new Section 113G in Clause 1 for advanced quality schemes, by new Section 123E in Clause 4 for franchising schemes, and by new Section 138F in Clause 9 for enhanced partnership plans and schemes. However—and this is what puzzles me in view of the Government’s overall position—in each case the current list of relevant local authorities which should be included does not refer in any way to national parks. Such references would make sure that the specific needs of visitors to national parks were taken into account in the new arrangements. If the national park authorities remain excluded from the lists of relevant local authorities, it could put at risk many of the bus services currently operating in our national parks.

Mark Holroyd, transport and tourism manager for the New Forest National Park Authority, explained why this is so important when he said:

“New Forest National Park Authority has led work with bus operators and Transport Authorities to develop a well-used and more financially sustainable public transport system in the National Park. We have pioneered the development of services which meet the needs of both residents and visitors, the latter providing vital revenue to support the former. To ensure similar initiatives can succeed in the future, it is important that the National Park Authorities are formally consulted as part of any changes to services in our areas”.

All public bodies have a statutory duty to take account of the potential effect of their decisions and activities on national parks, including activities outside national park boundaries that may affect those parks. This is often referred to as the Section 62 duty. However, there is a low level of awareness of this duty and it is not always monitored and enforced effectively. There is a particular risk that the combined authorities, for which national parks are only one part of a much larger area, will fail to implement this duty as well as they should.

That is why it is so important to have these references on the face of the Bill. I am sure that the Minister will seek ways to put this right. The guidance should also highlight the key role that voluntary groups play in delivering bus services in many national parks and encourage LTAs to engage with them when planning any changes.

I shall finish by making a general observation. Like all of us, I spend a good deal of my time in London, and I am incredibly impressed by the London bus service. It seems to have so many characteristics for which people are looking. It is clean; it is reliable; it is frequent. Because it is reliable and frequent, people use it. If there is uncertainty about a bus service people do not use it because it is much easier to jump into a car or make an arrangement with a friend. Of course, the situation feeds on itself. If we stop using the bus service, it deteriorates still further. Not unnaturally, the people running it begin to ask, “Is this service viable?”. The point is the commitment to having a good service. What is outstanding about London is that it saw this and realised that the buses had to be there if there was to be public use on the scale and to the extent that there should be.

We really must look at this. I am one of those who is very much committed to the concept of a mixed economy. In a mixed economy you really have to be extremely clear about whether you are providing a service or a profit-making opportunity. They are not the same. They can be the same but they are not necessarily the same. We have to be clear that what we want in the interests of the environment, health, less stress and general social well-being is a service across our closely integrated United Kingdom that is second to none.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s Second Reading debate. It has been an interesting one and I thank noble Lords for the general welcome they have shown to the Bill. In particular, I acknowledge the support for the Bill from the Front Benches and the offer to work constructively throughout its passage. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and look forward to working with them, and indeed all noble Lords, on this important piece of legislation.

I start my closing remarks with two immediate admissions. One is that if I do not get through all the various points that have been raised, I will of course, in the normal manner, write to noble Lords. The other is that my throat may get a bit croaky. We are into the early days of Ramadan, and it is two hours before I can eat or drink, so I seek your Lordships’ indulgence in case my voice suddenly packs up. I hope it will not and I will look for divine intervention if that does happen.

Apart from the open data provisions in this Bill, which I will come on to and which will provide bus users with more accurate and up-to-date information on services available to them, I repeat that it is not the Government’s intention to mandate any particular approach to bus management. However, on the subject of open data, I welcome noble Lords’ support, and share the views expressed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Scott, Lady Grey-Thompson and, of course, Lady Randerson, on the importance of looking at this area. It is a very important part of the Bill and an exciting opportunity to see how open data can be used. Our preferred approach is to develop a central data repository to meet the requirements of registration and journey planning. Those data would be open data, and the expectation is that third-party developers would be able to use data to develop web and app services to provide travel information to all.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about cross-border services. I assure her and all noble Lords that provisions will be made to allow cross-border services to continue to operate where franchising or partnership proposals are adopted. In the franchising context, cross-border services will be able to operate under service permits. In a partnership context, all bus operators, including those that run cross-border services, will be invited to participate. I assure the noble Baroness that we have already engaged with the devolved Administrations and, of course, will continue to do so through the passage of the Bill.

I turn to questions raised about delegated powers by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and, in his closing remarks, by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. First, we believe that the powers in the Bill are appropriate; many of them deal with technical matters that will require some flexibility, so secondary legislation is appropriate for that. There are also considerable precedents in this regard, with previous transport Acts that have used that approach. I assure noble Lords that we will make draft regulations and policy-scoping documents available during Committee to ensure that they are informed of our plans, and we intend to publish the impact assessments ahead of Committee too. I shall seek—and I shall follow up on this with officials—to put forward a summary list of the different things, as they are scheduled. That might help all of us during the passage of the Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also raised the issue of Clause 21 and municipals. We want to ensure in this regard that the bus industry continues to thrive, and the Bill provides a number of new ways in which the industry and local authorities can work together to improve services for local communities. The responsibility for specifying services should be separated from the responsibility for providing those services, and we therefore believe that local authorities should not be able to set up municipal bus companies. Of course, I acknowledge views expressed today, and I am sure that we will return to the issue in Committee.

I turn to a few of the other matters raised in that regard. My noble friend Lord True also raised an issue about municipal bus companies and whether small enterprises would be stopped too. We will certainly look into that, but I reiterate that community transport is exempt from all effects of the Bill.

The point about rural-proofing and impact assessment was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Judd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. I assure noble Lords that rural-proofing is included in the impact assessments, which will be published ahead of Committee. That will be included in the summary document.

On the devolution deals, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State worked with others in the Government to determine and agree the details of the Greater Manchester devolution proposition, mentioned particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley. Officials have continued to work closely with colleagues from Greater Manchester during the development of detailed Bill policies. On the further questions from the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, we have already begun to engage with stakeholders on the development of secondary legislation and will continue to engage closely with them over the coming months. I assure him that secondary legislation and guidance required for the authorities to take forward the provisions in the Bill will be prepared in time for the upcoming mayoral elections.

An area which was raised by my noble friends Lord Young, Lord True and Lord Attlee, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, and other noble Lords was franchising. There has been some discussion about the availability of franchising and its link to devolution deals. We believe that the powers set out in the Bill provide the potential for local transport authorities other than mayoral combined authorities to access franchising powers if there is a strong case for doing so, but we also recognise the need to provide as much certainty as possible to the bus industry. Authorities have control or oversight of local roads, local transport and parking policies and have planning responsibilities and so will be best placed to implement franchising as they directly control many of the factors that impact on bus patronage. Clear decision-making responsibility and accountability will also be important when determining whether franchising is the best approach for a particular area.

Various questions were asked by noble Lords about franchising powers. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about combined powers, opting out and Gateshead, and I will write to him about that. Other noble Lords asked about the process for local authorities which are not mayoral authorities. As I said at the all-Peers meeting, an affirmative SI is required to access the category of authority—for example, a unitary authority. Once this is done, the authority will apply for the Secretary of State’s consent. That will be the process.

My noble friend Lord Young raised the issue of compensation. The Bill sets out clear processes and consultation requirements that must be followed by authorities to ensure they consider the benefits that franchising could bring for local people and the potential impacts, including on bus operators. As my noble friend will be aware, since the Transport Act 2000 it has been possible for local authorities to exert more control over their local bus markets. Compensation was not provided for in that legislation.

The noble Lords, Lord Woolmer and Lord Berkeley, raised issues relating to Cornwall. Our intention is that franchising powers should be available to other authorities only where the governance, capability and track record of the authority are sufficiently strong and there is an appropriate economic geography. Cornwall Council provides a good example of such an authority. It covers a wide area, it is a unitary authority with the necessary wider powers to improve bus services and it has a good track record of delivering transport projects. It is our intention to publish the objective criteria which will set out the factors that we believe are important when considering whether an authority is well placed to franchise the local bus network.

My noble friend Lord Attlee spoke about sensitive market information, local authorities and franchising. We want to ensure that decisions to move to franchising are made on the basis of robust and accurate information with the interests of passengers in mind. To ensure this is the case, it will be necessary for the franchising authority to have accurate information from local bus operators on aspects such as passenger numbers, fare structures and revenue from local services. I assure my noble friend that we understand that some of the information will be commercially sensitive. It is imperative that authorities treat it with care. Information can be used only in connection with the franchising scheme.

As I said in my opening remarks, franchising may not be appropriate for all. The enhanced partnership proposals in the Bill provide the opportunity for improved co-operation between local authorities and bus operators which will benefit passengers, local businesses and the environment. As my noble friend Lady Redfern highlighted in her contribution, the flexibility within all these models will allow local areas to prioritise service standards appropriate to their areas.

Many noble Lords understandably and rightly expressed their views on the accessibility of buses and, in particular, on the need for accessible on-board information on buses. Various scenarios and incidents have been mentioned. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, talked about people appearing with pushchairs and wheelchairs, and what happens then. She asked who gets left behind; as a father of three children, two of them in pushchairs, I can tell her that it is normally the father. Once I have done so and I am left with an empty pushchair, people nearby think, “He seems to have left something important behind”, but that is another story that I will share with her over a cup of tea. That seems to be the general way forward in discussions on the Bill, which of course I welcome as long as it is post the time when I can eat and drink.

I turn to the more important and serious issues of accessibility. The noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Campbell, Lady Jones and Lady Grey-Thompson, the noble Lord, Lord Low, and my noble friend Lord Holmes all talked with great passion and experience, expertise and insight into this area. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, cited the case of FirstGroup Plc v Paulley, which is yet to be heard at the Supreme Court. I am sure she will appreciate that I cannot really comment any further on that. However, it is vital that wheelchair users and other disabled people are not prevented from accessing bus services. I will ensure that the question of the use of wheelchair space is given full consideration once the case has concluded.

I assure noble Lords that we are currently developing guidance on providing disability awareness training, informed by existing provision across the transport sector. We will work with the bus industry to promote the adoption of that training ahead of the mandatory training provisions of an EU regulation that comes into force in 2018. I assure noble Lords that the Government are committed to ensuring that all disabled people have the same opportunities to travel as other members of society. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Holmes talked about the need to increase the employment of disabled people, and I am sure we all took note of the statistics that he shared with the House. It is important that the Bill incorporates powers enabling partnership agreements to require, as several noble Lords mentioned, the installation of equipment providing audible and visual next-stop announcements.

With regard to the DVSA and the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations, the PSVAR have created a step change in accessibility for disabled bus passengers and we will continue to work with the DVSA to ensure that operators understand their duties. As one of my ministerial responsibilities, I have oversight of the agencies including the DVSA, and I will follow that up to see what more can be done. In that regard, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, that I would welcome meeting her and her advisers, and indeed any noble Lords, to see how we can further strengthen the provisions of the Bill to ensure that we provide accessibility. It is an important subject and, while improvements have been made, I fully acknowledge that more can be done. I assure noble Lords that there is provision in the Bill for all the equipment that has been talked about today, and for such expertise to be specified as part of the standards of service, as well as in an enhanced partnership if parties agree. In setting up a contract framework for a franchised area, a local authority could also require the provision of specialist equipment for this very purpose.

I turn to rural services. I said at the beginning of our debate that I fully recognise the extra pressures placed on local authorities throughout the country to provide bus services, particularly to more isolated areas. We have heard many comparisons between the provision in cities, particularly London, and elsewhere. However, it is primarily for local authorities to prioritise their spending from the considerable amounts of public money that they receive to support transport services. I reiterate that no extra money will be made available to local authorities specifically for the provisions of the Bill. However, its proposals will help to ensure that every penny they have is put to best use.

I turn to community transport, and I hope I may provide some reassurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. Community transport provides vital services, especially where commercial services are not available, and we have shown a continued commitment to the sector through the community transport minibus fund, providing over 300 organisations with new minibuses, and through ensuring that community transport providers are exempt from the provisions of the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the national park authorities. I assure him that, as I am sure he is aware, all public bodies have a statutory duty to take account of national park authority purposes when taking any decisions that may affect them. I assure him we will ensure that that duty is made clear in the consultation guidance that will be produced for the measures contained in the Bill.

[Lord Judd]

I am grateful to the Minister for taking up my point. I hope that on reflection he will realise that a reference in the consultation process is not good enough. If we are sincere and genuine about the commitment which has been there, commendably, on both sides of the House, and which has been outspoken on the part of the Government, it is important to have this in the Bill.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As with other provisions, I am sure that we will return to this in Committee. However, I will take back and review the noble Lord’s contribution on this as well. I emphasise again that the Government take this responsibility seriously and will look at this issue as part of the guidance, but I am sure that the noble Lord will continue to make his case during the passage of the Bill.

In the closing moments I will pick up a few other questions that arose on competition law, for example, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. I assure noble Lords that the application of competition law to the bus sector is important to protect the interests of bus passengers, which is why the Bus Services Bill makes the Competition and Markets Authority a statutory consultee for any advance quality partnership scheme as well as the enhanced partnership scheme. I assure the noble Baroness that I agreed with her when she said that the perception of its potential impacts, which has cast a long and unnecessary shadow over bus partnerships, is important here. In developing the Bill, we have sought to address the concerns that have been raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, rightly talked about the importance of scrutiny and audit. In developing the Bill, we have been acutely aware of the importance of effective scrutiny, particularly of the franchising schemes. As the noble Lord identified, the Bill includes audit, independent of the franchising authority, of the use of data and information on whether statutory guidance has been followed. I am sure that the overview and scrutiny committees of the combined authorities will also wish to look closely at the proposals for franchising when they are brought forward. Ultimately, we think it is right that the decision on whether they do so should be a local one.

The noble Lord raised the issue of Gateshead, which I touched on briefly. As far as I understand the complexities of local governance arrangements, discussions on that issue are already going on. However, I will write to him. I add, however, that the Bill allows for mayoral combined authorities to franchise services within their areas, although of course we understand that mayoral combined authorities do not exist in isolation, and the service permit provisions in the Bill will enable services to operate across boundaries into areas which have not moved into that franchising model.

We have covered various areas and some important issues. There has rightly been a key focus on issues of accessibility and the franchising powers, which I am sure we will return to in Committee. I know that collectively we share an ambition to improve bus services and increase passenger numbers and journeys for all sectors of the community without discrimination. Even if our views about how to get there differ around the edges, once again I thank all noble Lords for their general warm welcome for the Bill. I look forward to working with them both in and outside the Chamber in ensuring that we strengthen the provisions of the Bill as it makes its passage through the House.