Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Main Page: Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts
Lord Tyler
My Lords, that is nonsense. The noble Baroness should simply look at what has happened in Scotland. We now have a practical example. There no longer are these one-party states in Scotland. There are now far more effective local authorities as a result.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I declare that I am an elected member of Lewisham Council in south London. This has been an interesting debate but changing the voting system to a form of PR is not something that I am in favour of, although this would be only for the election of councillors in England.
In 2011, we did of course have a referendum on moving to a new system for elections to the House of Commons. The system put forward was AV. I know that that is not a proportional system but it was the system agreed by the then coalition Government, put to a referendum of the voters of the United Kingdom and rejected. There is nothing that I have heard in this debate or elsewhere that makes me think there has been a change in the heart of the voters in England and that what people want is to elect their councillors by single transferable vote, having stuck with first past the post elections to Westminster only three years ago. I did, however, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, when he talked of looking at governance structures from time to time. I think that that is right. That does not take me down the road of moving to single transferable votes for the election of councillors.
There are issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to, about the number of voting systems that we use to elect people to various public bodies, positions and Parliaments in the United Kingdom. Where a body is elected by a proportional system, it should remain a proportional system, but I would like to reduce the number of systems we use. It is very confusing for the voter to elect people when we are using, at least, first past the post, single transferable vote, closed list systems, top-up lists and the supplementary vote. Supplementary vote is one of the worst voting systems we use. I have been to many counts where the supplementary vote system was used. There are often a considerable number of spoilt ballot papers because people put the X in the second column instead of the first column so the vote is completely discarded, which is a bad thing. I do not think that these people intend to spoil their ballot papers; it is just that they have not understood that they need to put an X in the first column and then one in the second column as well.
Could the noble Baroness in her response make reference to the myriad voting systems we now have in the United Kingdom and how that could be a little less confusing for the voter? I am sure that from the Dispatch Box we are all agreed that changing the system for the election of councillors in England is not something that either of us supports. Nor is there evidence that it is something that the public want. At this stage, there is no need to move down that road.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we debated this previously in earlier debates. Amendment 47 would amend the Representation of the People Act 1983 to provide that all local elections in England and Wales would be by single transferable vote.
For the single transferable vote system to function effectively, multi-member electoral areas would be required. As many existing electoral areas in England have only one councillor representing them—for example, nearly all county councils—it would require a review of local government electoral areas in England by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England. It could therefore not be introduced, even if it were desirable, within any short timescale. It would also cost more and take longer to achieve a result because of the more complicated count processes.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked me to list the myriad electoral systems. The Mayor of London is elected by the supplementary vote system. European elections use the d’Hondt system of PR and local government is first past the post. That is three that I can name; I am sure that there are more. But I hope that on the basis of this short debate, the noble Lord will feel content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, this proposed new clause to be inserted after Clause 10 gives effect to the policy of my own party and that of the Liberal Democrats to allow citizens upon reaching the age of 16 to vote in elections. In this case, the entitlement is for local government elections only. I suspect that this amendment is not going to receive a favourable response from the Government, which is most unfortunate.
The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, my noble friend Lord McKenzie and me is one that the Government really should have a more open view of rather than the all too familiar no that we have been getting when this issue has been raised in recent times. I am well aware that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who is not in his place at this late hour, is not a supporter of this policy. However, when we spoke in your Lordships’ House recently, he made some excellent points that I agreed with very much. They regarded the need for much more citizenship education, which I think is very important. I see a programme of that sort of education leading to actually being able to register and to vote at 16. We do not have that at the moment, which is very much to be regretted. The arguments for allowing people to vote at 16 have been rehearsed many times before. It has been a policy in the manifesto of the Labour Party and, of course, the Liberal Democrats. It is also a policy of the Scottish National Party, the Greens and, of course, the Scottish Conservative Party, whose leader, Ruth Davidson MSP, said that she was a fully paid-up member of the vote-at-16 club. I am not sure what the position of Plaid Cymru is, but I am sure that it would support the policy as well.
As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, the game changer was the decision taken to allow people at 16 and 17 to vote in the Scottish referendum last year. As he said, the young people embraced their civic duty with pride and a real sense of responsibility, and they were part of the decision on the future path that their country decided to take. It was the right thing to do and it is generally accepted across civil society that it was a good thing. After the referendum, the Scottish Parliament voted unanimously to allow votes at 16 for all elections to Holyrood, and next year 16 year-olds will vote for the new Assembly in Scotland. I am sure that the Welsh Assembly will take a similar view. We are in a position whereby, in different parts of the United Kingdom, there are different ages at which people can vote, which is not a good place to be. It is a mess, and one that this House should address.
What is also interesting is that in the three Crown dependencies close to Great Britain, you can vote at 16: in the Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey. You can also vote at 16 at certain elections in Germany and Norway. I have no doubt that this change will happen, and sooner than most people think, and for me it cannot come soon enough.
Has the Minister seen the report from the Election Commission on the progress of moving to IER? Here we are talking about votes of 16 and 17 year-olds when, due to the action of the previous Government—who of course included the Liberal Democrats, so they cannot get away with this one—as of May 2015, the number of 16 and 17 year-olds actually registered to vote has dropped by 47%. There are now only 247,705 people registered to vote as of February 2014. That is a shocking figure and one that both parties in the coalition should be rightly ashamed of. Perhaps in responding the Minister would agree with me that EROs need to take the issue of engagement properly and work particularly to get these young people back on to the register, working with schools and colleges, as takes place in Northern Ireland. It was right when the Labour Party called for EROs to be given a duty to get everybody aged 16 and 17 on to the register.
In conclusion, I support the amendment, and I am sure that the policy change will happen. However, we have a real problem with young people not being on the register, and we need to do something about that.
Lord Shipley
I add two facts for ministerial consideration. One fact that really struck me about the Scottish referendum was the very high turnout rate of 75% of 16 and 17 year-olds, when for the 18 to 24 year-old age group it was only 54%. That is very marked. What it demonstrates is a clear interest in current affairs and their futures. The question is whether an age group that can demonstrate such a commitment to thinking about their future should be denied a vote generally.
Secondly, decisions are made regularly by local councils which impact on the daily lives of 16 to 18 year-olds. A very good example is the cost of public transport for young people—the cost of bus services, urban rail systems and so on. I have come to the conclusion that the voice of those young people is not adequately heard. I am in favour of votes at 16 and have been for many years, but I am even clearer now that the time has come to implement the change that Scotland has trail-blazed.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, there is no doubt that the Scottish referendum and debate was unique, certainly in my lifetime, in engaging the public in the way it did. Participation in that election by people from all age groups, including 16 and 17 year-olds, was like nothing we have ever seen before. We can all look at it, wonder why we do not engage better with people from all age groups and reflect upon it. Amendment 48 would change the franchise for those entitled to vote in local elections in England and Wales to include 16 and 17 year-olds. As we have discussed, the Bill provides that the franchise for electing mayors for a mayoral combined authority is the same as that for all local elections in England, where the voting age is 18.
More broadly, of course, the voting age for parliamentary elections is set at 18, and beyond that the voting age in most democracies, including most member states in the EU, is also 18. Only Austria in the EU allows voting for 16 year-olds. We have heard the argument about the franchise in Scotland, but this was decided in Scotland, as is its devolved right, just as it is right that decisions about the franchise for elections that take place in England should be decided by this Parliament. I am sorry to be a party pooper at this time of night, but the Government have no plans to lower the minimum voting age and I am clear that the Bill is not the place to take steps to change the arrangements for local elections. I am sure that even proponents of lowering the voting age to 16 agree that, were it to happen, it should be only following detailed debate.
I have not read the report on IER but I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about EROs engaging in getting people in general registered to vote, and certainly those younger age groups. On that basis I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I am pleased about the Minister’s final remarks, because I think the drop is catastrophic: 47% have dropped out in just over a year and that collapse is a consequence of IER. We have to deal with that; it is catastrophic.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, this late at night I am grateful for any crumbs that fall from ministerial tables. I suppose I should be grateful for that last comment. I shall take up, for a second, the argument that this is not appropriate legislation into which this reform should be inserted. The Long Title of the Bill includes:
“to make provision about local authority governance; and for connected purposes”.
That is critical to the whole consideration of the Bill. We are trying to revive important parts of the local governance of this country, and if the franchise is not relevant to that I do not know what is. Of course, at this time of night it would not be appropriate, as the Minister said. We have not had a very full debate: I have no doubt that we will have a full debate on Report. Therefore, for the time being, I and my colleagues are happy to withdraw the amendment.