Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd September 2025 Lords Chamber

At the moment, as we have heard, the cases go on and on. My noble friend Lord Murray’s amendment, proposing the NAAB, and my noble friend Lord Gower’s, proposing scientific methods, both aim to deal with a difficult problem. We have to decide on as near a factual way as possible, for the very reasons that have been stated—the danger we pose by putting people who are over 18 into a category with younger people in all the circumstances that the local authority oversees, and the cost to the taxpayer of protracted proceedings and judicial review. It is unsatisfactory and undermines confidence in our judicial system, the courts and, indeed, the way we organise our democracy. There will never be a perfect solution, but we must work towards whichever amendment is judged to be better for securing the best available evidence on age.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I concur with the noble Baroness’s point about proceedings lasting for ever, but one must not take that point too far. It takes one into authoritarian territory where we really should not be going.

All the points I wanted to make were made much better by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. I vividly remember our 2023 debates. Indeed, we are in a time warp with this whole debate. We have been here several times and there are no new points to be made. I remember the ethical, moral and practical arguments about scientific methods being debated.

Although I am sure we did, I cannot remember whether we discussed the equity of the point made in Amendment 115, which says that if the young person refuses to subject himself to a scientific test, because he is scared or whatever, the law will say that he is an adult and a liar. In equity, that seems to me to be a strange thing to put into a statute book. The process of going to law takes a long time, but it is our tradition. To cut it all short by saying, “If you don’t agree to be tested in this particular way then you’re an adult and a liar” seems quite extreme. I cannot remember if the point was debated before. I think the noble Lord, Lord Murray, is going to tell me that he answered it in lapidary terms in 2023.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is of course right to remember those happy exchanges. I draw his attention to the fact that, obviously, there are many examples in the law of presumptions being made if people do not do things: for example, the breath test, as the noble Viscount sitting next to me has just observed. If you say “no comment” in a police interview, inferences will be drawn. It is the same presumption system. There is nothing unusual in terms of the drafting.