Building Safety Bill

Lord Khan of Burnley Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is such an eminently sensible amendment, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that I think that the Minister will struggle to counter the arguments that have been made. What we are asking in this amendment is to avoid a situation involving resident management groups, or leaseholder-controlled companies, where the stringent expectations required to fulfil the duties under the Bill are put on the volunteers.

I already have concerns about the accountable person and how that role will fit in with those of the managing agent and building safety manager. We are beginning to create a fairly bureaucratic approach to safeguarding leaseholders and tenants, which has the risk of not fulfilling the simplicity and clarity that the Hackitt report required of new building safety measures.

I just think that the arguments cannot be countered. I look forward to what the Minister has to say, but this is such an eminently sensible proposal that I hope that the Government will find ways of bringing forward their own amendment on Report to fulfil the aims of this amendment.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendment 45, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, and well supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I reiterate that this amendment is about looking at leaseholder-owned or leaseholder-controlled companies appointing an external professional to discharge the functions of the accountable person or principal accountable person. The amendment also talks about costs and maybe looking at service charges.

I want to ask this of the Minister. On these Benches we have a big concern about the actual level of service charges at the moment. These charges are already quite high and they are passed on to leaseholders and tenants. Have the Government looked at the aspect of service-charge pricing and whether leaseholders will be able to bear the cost of having this expertise, as detailed in the amendment? We absolutely recognise the importance of the amendment and we are supportive of it. We are equally concerned about using service charges in order to fund these kinds of important, necessary steps. The impact on leaseholders and tenants is a big concern.

On what was discussed previously in Committee, I will add something in relation to professional expertise and skills, and having the opportunity to pass on these responsibilities to somebody who can take care of this important role, focusing on the function of the accountable person or principal accountable person. I will not talk about this at length, but it calls for a debate about the current situation and whether the Government are fulfilling the needs of leaseholders and tenants. I will finish by saying that there is a big concern about service charges overall, about pricing and about how this will have an impact subsequently on leaseholders.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, first, I will answer the noble Lord, Lord Khan. He brings up an important issue and I heard his concerns on the level of service charges to leaseholders. I do not think that that is particularly relevant to this amendment, but I hear his concerns and I will take them back to the department and we will get a letter to him saying what we are doing about that.

I am sorry, but I am going to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Best, on this amendment—but perhaps not as much as I could have done. I thank him and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for raising this important matter. The Bill provides that an accountable person is the entity responsible for the repair of the exterior, structure and common parts of a building. This may well include leaseholders who have set up resident-led organisations exercising their statutory right to take control of their building away from the freeholder. These statutory rights are very important. They act as a device to ensure that the imbalance of power between freehold and leasehold tenure is redressed and that leaseholders are empowered to make decisions about the safety management of their buildings. With this empowerment come responsibilities and accountability. The amendment would allow such resident-led organisations to appoint a third party to be responsible for their building’s safety management, passing culpability to that third party if anything went wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

The noble Baroness is certainly right that there are materials that have been used in one way, safely and successfully, for thousands of years, and others that are intrinsically safe, such as bricks—presuming they are made of clay rather than straw. I will not try to give the full range, because I think the Committee would get bored quite quickly and my pool of knowledge is quite shallow, but she has raised an important point: it is not just about having a product but about what you do with it. I am sure the High Court would want to put both components together before issuing any building liability orders, which seem to be the nuclear weapon that the Government believe they have in their hands.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to a number of amendments in this group. It has been a fascinating and exhaustive debate, even though there has been a mix of amendments.

I will start with Amendments 46 to 48, which are technical amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, who simplified and explained them in a very eloquent and clear manner—even using Latin at the start of his introduction. I hope the Minister got the gist of that message in Latin; I cannot repeat it, but I think it purported to say that, if he listens to the message and applies it, he will leave a wonderful legacy through this Bill.

At the heart of the argument from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, was consultation. Many noble Lords in this Committee have, at different stages of our lives, undertaken consultation; its value is essential to what we are doing today. I am really concerned that, if there is a lack of consultation or an element of tokenism—if we do not get residents, tenants’ groups and leaseholders on board—it could lead to what we often refer to as post hoc rationalisation of predetermined decisions. We need to take people with us on that journey, as I have said previously, and ensure that they feel as close as possible to the decision-making we are undertaking in this Committee and in subsequent debates in this Bill’s journey.

Amendment 49 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, makes provision regarding the contravention of requests for further information. Similarly, Amendment 50 would allow regulations to make provision for penalties where a principal accountable person fails to set up a proper complaints procedure or fails to do so in reasonable time.

The noble Lord referenced Clauses 93 to 99, which are seen as unfavourable for leaseholders and residents. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox—who has, by the way, introduced amendments for the first time; I congratulate her on completing that process successfully—raised concerns about Clauses 97 and 99. She said that last resort access should not be the new normal and that we must be careful about entrance on minor issues in particular.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

No, I do not.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

Sometimes they are wise men and women. I hope that the Minister can take forward their wise suggestions on this group of amendments in particular.

We welcome many of the government amendments, tabled in good spirit to make sure that life gets better for residents of buildings across the country and that they are free from unsafe situations. Government Amendment 141 makes provision for regulations under the new clause relating to costs contribution notices to be subject to the draft affirmative procedure. I want to ask the Minister about the power given to government to make new legislation. What scrutiny will these new powers be subject to?

The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, talked about the important issue of long leases. It is a fascinating debate, but perhaps it is not for now, because this Bill is about building safety. When the noble Lord, Lord Young, was a Minister in 1984, I was five—in fact, I was a safety hazard in my parents’ building at the time. His point about the future of long leases is important, and I am sure it will be discussed and debated in a future Bill. I also appreciate the experience brought by the noble Earl in discussing his points.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, made an interesting and very important point about product safety. It is difficult to digest. Even the Construction Products Association is confused about this area. There is a lack of clarity which I hope the Minister and the Government will address.

Finally, I will single out Amendment 147, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, which looks at publishing assessments of the impacts on businesses, in particular, of remediation changes. It is an important amendment because there is a shortage of homes and we want to make sure that we look at how this impacts on everybody in the whole chain and that we do not move to a situation where we are building fewer homes. That is an important point, but today has to be about impact assessments on citizens of this country and every person living in an unsafe building.

The Minister in debate on a previous day mentioned that this is a landmark Bill and an opportunity. Unfortunately, at this moment it is not being taken forward with the really strong, meaningful, well-intentioned and well-purposed amendments that have been presented, so I hope that the Government will reflect, listen and make that impact.

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

Before the Minister stands up, perhaps I can make two points. This is a large group of quite diverse amendments. My concern is over the accountable person role. Judging by the discussion today—I will not go through the list of different contributions—I think it is going to be a very difficult job indeed. That person is going to need help in creating a co-operative working relationship with tenant groups, and the situation could be exacerbated by bad and difficult freeholders or managing agents, often in league, and if the accountable person finds himself or herself in their pocket it will not be made any easier.

I do not overlook difficult leaseholders. There are some tenants who will not let anybody into their building. That is also a problem to be dealt with, but I have two suggestions. The accountable person should be prepared to prove reasonableness in all their behaviours and should also be prepared to prove value for money. An autocratic manager refusing to engage with a leaseholder makes life even more difficult. In the second case, concerning value for money, whether it is the fire extinguisher example given by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, or some captive insurance company or an arrangement with a very high commission-bearing insurer offering kickbacks to freeholders, that would be avoided.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to say how amazed I am by how young the noble Lord, Lord Khan, is. I thought I was a whippersnapper as someone in my mid-50s, but the noble Lord must have been born in—what, the late 1970s?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

1979.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My maths is not that bad, but that is impressive.

I will start with the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, who focused on the government amendments. It is fair to say—he will know this as someone who played my role in the coalition Government—that we cannot possibly move amendments without considering A1P1 rights and the impact of the amendments. We would never get them through the legal system. Obviously, we are tabling the amendments but not moving them, but we have done all the checks, as you would expect, and taken legal opinion and so forth to make sure that they are all workable, and indeed lawful. Otherwise, we would just not be allowed to do it.

I also say that there has been considerable engagement with the organisations that the noble Lord mentioned, but we need to continue that engagement and that is something we can do. I reassure him that we have had representations from Build UK, the Association for Project Safety and the Construction Products Association, but we should continue to engage. My view is that there is never too much engagement with these organisations. However, I also said to him, and I put this now into Hansard—it was raised in a previous debate by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman—that if you breach building regulations implemented in 1984 by the then young whippersnapper, my noble friend Lord Young, it is a criminal act.

The noble Lord will also know that if you commit a crime in this country, there is no statute of limitations for most crimes. In this case, we are saying that we have seen appalling practices over the previous 30 years, and there should not be a statute of limitations period that does not allow us to rectify that. That is why we are looking backwards 30 years and forwards 15 years. Of course, we have taken considerable legal advice about taking that position, but it is to ensure that there is no legal reason why someone who has broken building regulations is not open to face redress. I accept all the points he makes around the practicalities of doing that, but there should not be a small, narrow limitations period when we tackle this historically difficult problem that has crept up on us over not one decade, but three decades.

I turn to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, who wanted to understand how we are regulating construction products. It is not straightforward, but it is pretty straightforward, so I will not take too long over this. We have created a national regulator. In the same way as we have a building safety regulator in shadow form until the Bill gets Royal Assent, the Bill will put into statute a national regulator for construction products in the Office for Product Safety and Standards. The CEO is a phenomenal chap called Graham Russell. He is there and it has already started to flex its muscles with a prohibition notice to Kingspan. This Bill formalises the national regulator for construction products and there are at the same time local regulators of products, as the noble Baroness will know, with her local government background within trading standards, that provide that local role. It is the national and local regulation of construction products that provides the regulatory environment for construction products.

The noble Baroness also raised construction products testing. This is something that the inquiry showed as an area of concern. The Building Research Establishment was a nationalised entity that it was privatised in the 1980s, I think—my noble friend Lord Young will know the exact date, I do not—but we also have the British Board of Agrément, which has always been in the private sector. Neither of those have come out as great, robust testing houses, which is why my predecessor as Secretary of State asked for a construction products testing review. I believe that report is nearly finalised. I will ask for a copy. There will be recommendations on how we improve the robustness of construction products testing. I hope that addresses the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

One of the three wise men, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised a very important point, but it is fair to say that, when we are talking about construction product manufacturers, we are talking not about all construction product manufacturers but about those that contributed to this crisis. Three of them have been raised, front and centre, as being responsible for the Grenfell Tower tragedy: Celotex, Arconic and Kingspan. These were all products that should never, frankly, have been able to have been put in that position. We can argue about why, but you cannot put flammable material that spreads like petrol up the side of a building and say that that adequately resists the spread of fire, which is what the regulations stated in Approved Document B. You cannot put flammable insulation behind it, et cetera. There are a number of product companies that contributed to this. Whether they were installed incorrectly or not is irrelevant: these products should never have been put on our buildings. We can look at the responsibility for that, but the responsibility also lies with the manufacturer, in large part, and in those cases, the polluter must pay. However, it is not all construction product manufacturers by any means, and I make that point absolutely clear.

Secondly, the way in which those products are installed is a matter for the construction company. The construction company, not the manufacturer, is responsible for following the instructions and installing the product correctly. We can see examples of perfectly good cladding systems that are installed incorrectly. In such cases, that falls on the developer in the first instance, or on whoever the developer got to install the system. We must be absolutely clear about that. If we start creating confusion around it, we avoid accountability and we do not move forward. It is pretty clear in my mind where culpability falls. I hope that that addresses some of the concerns raised by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. This has been a fantastic debate. I have enjoyed every second of every minute of every hour. We have had one hour and 40 minutes on this group, and it has been absolutely tremendous. Thank you all for your contributions.