Trade Union Bill

Lord King of Bridgwater Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

I say to the Minister with the greatest respect: the Government should leave well alone, particularly in the National Health Service. Leave it to managers and unions to do as they do at present, which is, by and large, to work sensibly and constructively together. Let us drop Clause 13 from the Bill.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, as I said in the debate on Clause 12, I have my concerns about Clause 13. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and, once again, to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for making part of the case that I want to make, which is that there are all sorts of reasons why it would be mad to use this power.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the point very well. We have made it clear in Clause 12 that what we really believe in is transparency. We are not frightened of transparency, and we are not frightened of standing up for what we believe is right in this respect and what we believe is good for union relations. In that circumstance, it would be a defeat for transparency if we found that the powers in Clause 13 needed to be used. But then I think: could I conceive that it could never happen? Those of us who have been around in some of these industrial and other areas know that a relationship that has been established over a long time—perhaps between a chairman and a local trade union—can incite very real criticism when it is in the public domain but people feel incapable of moving on it. It may be in the interests of that organisation, whichever of the publicly funded bodies it may be, for someone to resolve the issue.

What nobody has mentioned is that it is not—if I may say so, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake—about whether Whitehall knows best. It will be, in the end, about whether Parliament knows best. The most important part of this clause is that for a Minister to try to impose this power, he must carry an affirmative order in each House. Just consider yourself as a Minister, deciding whether you will act in some area that will excite all the criticisms so well made from the opposition Benches, and consider why it would be so unwise.

As anyone who has had to deal with the business managers will know—and I am standing not very far away from the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms—the business managers say, “We have more than enough business anyway in both Houses and why on earth do you want to bring this order?”. It is not just the Opposition who oppose half the business that the Government or individual Ministers want to bring forward; it is very often the business managers on your own side who say, “We are far too busy. This can’t be the most important thing. Can’t it be sorted out in any other way?”.

I agree with everything that has been said. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about local government. If you get transparency on this issue in local government, which already exists, as we know, it is not going to be applied against an individual local authority. I cannot see that ever being applied. But there could be another public body that becomes a public embarrassment, where it is known publicly, as we do know, that in certain areas significant public money can be wasted, and then people will turn to the Government and to Parliament and say, “What are you going to do about this? Are you powerless to prevent this situation continuing?”.

In those circumstances, I can see a case for Clause 13 but, if I may say so—not terribly helpfully to my noble friend the Minister—I find it completely unreadable. That was always one of the problems with the parliamentary draftsmen. I understand what the point is but somebody ought to have a jolly good look and see whether we can deal with one or two of the points that have been picked out by the Opposition, absolutely rightly—the odd little details where some draftsman has got carried away with what the individual details are. That needs to be looked at. That is a singularly unhelpful comment and will put Report stage back, I expect. There is a case for Clause 13 but, as I say, the chances of it actually being used, for all the reasons that have been given, are pretty minuscule. However, I would not rule out the need for it and on that basis I would support it.

[Lord Beecham]

Can I take it that the noble Lord is in favour of the House retaining its right to vote on affirmative resolutions?

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Yes, that is exactly what Clause 13(13) says.

[Lord Kerslake]

If we are going to give powers to a Minister for every inconceivable or almost inconceivable circumstance that might just possibly happen, we will give a huge amount of power to Ministers in the future.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I am so sorry, could the noble Lord repeat that comment?

[Lord Kerslake]

The noble Lord’s suggestion is that we should keep this clause in because it is very unlikely that it will ever need to be used, but not impossible. If that is the principle on which we put things into Bills, we will have some very big Bills in the future. Surely if we were in that situation, it would be open to the Government, as has already been said, to come forward with new legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I am afraid that I have to keep my back to the noble Lord; I am not allowed to turn around and address him, but I say to him that absolutely, in these circumstances—and if I may say so, he is a greatly distinguished public servant—this is a very important role for Parliament. Parliament has to pass this and no Minister is going to stand up and look a fool in front of either House by going through the procedure of making the case for what is an exceptional power, which would be exceptionally used in some extreme case. But in the end for the Minister to say, “I’m terribly sorry, it’s an outrage, it’s an abuse of public money but there is no way we can do anything about it” would be quite unacceptable.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I know this has been an emotional debate but I believe strongly that the power of sunlight needs to be introduced to facility time in the wider public sector. On the back of important manifesto promises, this and the back-up power that we debated in the previous group of amendments was of course accepted without amendment in the other place, despite the modest increase in regulation they represent. As my noble friend Lord King said, to use the power, we would have to carry an affirmative order in both Houses.

I set out in the debate on the previous clauses the reasons why the Bill introduces requirements on public sector employers to publish information on facility time. It will be for public sector employers, not the Government, to manage the amount of time, if efficiencies exist, having had regard to the information that is published under Clause 12. However, it is only fair to the taxpayer that a reserve power exists should employers choose not to limit facility time to a reasonable amount.

Contrary to much of what we have heard, Clause 13 does not seek to ban facility time. That is a misconception that has been repeated, perhaps outside the Chamber, but it is not our intention. I say on the record that it is very much a power of last resort. Only if publication and the proper monitoring and recording that follow do not achieve the aim of having reasonable levels of facility time will it be necessary to consider the imposition of a cap.