Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Maude of Horsham Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

2. What steps he is taking to prepare for potential industrial action in the public sector.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

We are committed to maximum engagement with the public sector unions to seek agreement on essential reforms, and especially to make public sector pensions sustainable and among the very best available, as Lord Hutton, Labour’s Work and Pensions Secretary has recommended. I am sorry that a handful of unions are hellbent on pursuing disruptive industrial action while discussions are continuing. However, we have rigorous contingency plans in place to minimise disruption in the event of industrial action.

[Karl MᶜCartney]

I thank my right hon. Friend. Does he have a message for public sector workers who are contemplating strike action on 30 June?

[Mr Maude]

Yes, I do. I strongly recommend that they should not go in for industrial action. If schools close as a result of teachers going on strike, there will be considerable disruption not only to children’s education but to the lives of parents whose livelihoods depend on schools being open. While discussions are still going on about how to keep public sector pensions among the very best that there are, and at a time when taxpayers in the private sector have seen hits to their own pension schemes, I think people will be really fed up if industrial action goes ahead.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Why should the Government be surprised that public sector workers, many of whom are pretty poorly paid, faced with an onslaught on their pensions and frozen pay have decided to fight back? It would be surprising if they had not.

[Mr Maude]

If the coalition Government had not inherited the biggest budget deficit in the developed world, we might not have to be taking these steps. I remind the hon. Gentleman that a civil servant on median pay—about £23,000—who retires after a 40-year career, which is not untypical, will have a pension that would cost £500,000 to buy in the private sector. No one in the private sector now has access to such pensions.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

May I commend my right hon. Friend for his determination to engage to the maximum with the public sector unions to try to avoid industrial action? He has made it clear, however, that he does not rule out legislative changes. May I plead with him, on behalf of the Public Administration Committee, that we make changes in an orderly fashion, and that perhaps he should publish a Green Paper to consult on what changes should be made, so that we can have a proper debate about them rather than find ourselves propelled into legislative changes in an emergency?

[Mr Maude]

I do not have responsibility for industrial relations law; that rests with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. We have made it clear that we do not rule out changes, and a number of proposals have been made from outside. We think that industrial relations law works reasonably well at the moment, but we keep it under review.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that pensions should be regarded as deferred wages, and that therefore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) said, it should come as no surprise that pension scheme members are seeking to protect their future income?

[Mr Maude]

That is why we are engaging in discussions with the TUC at its behest. The discussions continue, and there is much still to be sorted out. I remind the hon. Gentleman that Lord Hutton, Labour’s Work and Pensions Secretary, recommended the reforms to make public sector pension schemes sustainable and affordable for the future. That is what we are determined to achieve. Any union or public servant contemplating strike action is jumping the gun. There is a long way to go yet.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to encourage increased levels of giving.

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[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

5. What progress his Department’s counter fraud taskforce has made in tackling benefit fraud.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

The National Fraud Authority estimates that £21 billion is lost to fraud in the public sector each year. In recent months, the counter fraud taskforce, which I chair, has overseen a series of small-scale pilots that have made immediate savings of £12 million in benefit and tax credit fraud, and which—when rolled out—will save £1.5 billion a year.

[Dan Jarvis]

I thank the Minister for his response, which, when compared with the Labour Government’s targets for benefit fraud reduction, signals an unambitious approach to tackling this serious problem. Why is that?

[Mr Maude]

It is one thing to have a target but another to reach it. The £21 billion of public sector fraud that the National Fraud Authority identified arose after his party’s Government had set their ambitious targets. We are getting on and doing things—identifying fraud and error and stopping hard-earned taxpayers’ money going out of the door, to ensure that instead it goes to the vulnerable people and important public services where it is needed.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

One and a half billion pounds sounds not like a modest saving, in the words of the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), but like a worthwhile saving, given that every penny comes out of people’s pockets. How soon will the Minister be able to take forward savings towards achieving the £21 billion total? We need to stamp this out of the public sector: what can we do about it?

[Mr Maude]

I should make it clear that this is only the beginning. The issue is not only benefit or tax fraud but procurement fraud. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport is undertaking a pilot on supplier fraud in his Department, and it is already yielding significant returns. If the previous Government had been as concerned with eradicating fraud as we are, the public finances would not perhaps be in the mess they are in.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

7. What progress he has made on establishing a big society bank.

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[Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

As the Minister for the Cabinet Office, I am responsible for the public sector efficiency and reform group, civil service issues, industrial relations, strategy in the public sector, Government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security.

[Mr Evennett]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s progress on public sector reform. Does he know why public sector unions have decided to ballot their members on strike action now, when talks on pension reform are still ongoing?

[Mr Maude]

Only three of the unions have done that. The majority of unions are continuing to engage in good faith with the discussions that are still taking place. It is our determination that at the end of the reforms proposed by Lord Hutton, Labour’s Work and Pensions Secretary, public sector pensions will continue to be among the best available, but we will ask people to work longer because they are living longer and to pay a bit more, to achieve a better balance between what they pay and what other taxpayers pay.

[Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)]

How can the Minister possibly justify the announcement on the No. 10 transparency website that since November the Government have spent more than £5 million on tarting up offices in Whitehall, including £680,000 on No. 10 Downing street? How can he justify that when he is laying off nurses, policemen, servicemen and so on? Will he now publish a line-by-line account of how the money was spent?

[Mr Maude]

Point one: if we had not gone in for full transparency in what the Government are spending, the hon. Gentleman would not know anything about this. Point two: we inherited a massive programme of wasteful refurbishment of Government offices from the previous Government, including some unbelievably badly negotiated PFI contracts. If they had taken the same care as we are taking with taxpayers’ money, we would not have the biggest budget deficit in the developed world, which we inherited from his Government.

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

T2. Does my right hon. Friend think that responsible Members of this House, in all parts of the Chamber, should condemn irresponsible strike action that puts children’s education at risk and diminishes public services? Does the silence—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful. The hon. Gentleman has finished.

[Mr Maude]

It would be good to hear Opposition Front Benchers joining us in urging the trade unions to stay with the discussions, which still have a great distance to go, to secure what will still be among the very best pension schemes available. If schools close down, it is not just children’s education that will be disrupted, but the livelihoods of millions of parents who depend on schools being open so that they can go to work to earn the money to pay the taxes to support public sector pensions. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber and too many private conversations taking place. I want to hear the questions and the Minister’s answers.

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[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

T4. You will be aware, Mr Speaker, that my constituency will hold a national sporting event in the next fortnight, the enjoyment of which could be undermined by strikes proposed by the unions. Does my right hon. Friend agree that these strikes are unnecessary, and will he confirm the Government’s commitment to talks to ensure that they do not have to happen?

[Mr Maude]

As I say, we are committed to continuing those discussions. We had further discussions yesterday, and there will be more next week and the week after. There is much still to be resolved. It was Lord Hutton, Labour’s Work and Pensions Secretary, who recommended the changes, and in order to make public sector pensions sustainable for the future we need to drive these reforms through.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

T6. On what date did the Government instruct parliamentary counsel to draft amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill, following the consequences of the NHS Future Forum?

[Mr Maude]

I would recommend that the hon. Gentleman ask that question of the Secretary of State for Health.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

During 2011, I will be launching a new social enterprise, the Northamptonshire parent infant project. What assurance can my right hon. Friend give me that commissioners will be encouraged to provide medium-term contracts to charities that provide essential support services?

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

T7. How many mutuals does the Minister expect to support through his Department next year, and will he be making a further statement on the mutual pathfinder?

[Mr Maude]

We know that there is growing enthusiasm for public sector workers to come together to form employee-led co-operatives or mutuals to carry out and deliver public services. All the evidence shows that they deliver huge increases in productivity and better public services at lower cost, and I hope that the hon. Lady will give her full support—

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely obliged to the Minister, but the House must now hear Mr Greg Hands.

[Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)]

T9. To what extent does the Minister expect any PCS strike action to have an impact on our vital public services?

[Mr Maude]

We are waiting to see the result of the ballot this afternoon, but I hope that civil servants, who are imbued with a strong public service ethos, will recognise that we are seeking to achieve public sector pensions that continue to be among the very best available. However, because people are living longer, they will be asked to work for longer. Furthermore, because there is not a fair balance between what they pay and what other taxpayers—who have seen their own pensions take a hit—pay, we are expecting them to pay a bit more towards them.

The Prime Minister was asked—