Health Bill

Lord Mawson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 28th October 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gerada (CB)]

My Lords, one of the people who I have most admired over the years is the American paediatrician, Professor Don Berwick—some of your Lordships may know him—who is an international expert on healthcare and a great advocate of the NHS. In fact, he led the Mid Staffs review in 2013. In the States, he led Medicare and Medicaid under President Obama. It always struck me that Don Berwick wrote us a birthday card on the NHS’s 60th birthday. It was a long card and I urge your Lordships to read it one day. He offered a simple prescription for the NHS: “Stop restructuring”. He warned that successive reorganisations drained the workforce’s “energy and confidence” and argued that stability makes improvement easier. Does the Minister agree that his advice would be well taken?

[Lord Mawson (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome this debate and I certainly support the amendment. I am encouraged by the letter that we received today that there is an open mind within government and a proper discussion taking place about these very important issues. I am a practitioner, as many of your Lordships know, and we are involved in trying to build some of this new health infrastructure around the country. Indeed, today I have been involved in quite an exciting conversation about a health innovation campus in Huddersfield that we are supporting, which has major implications for this Government’s direction of travel—a lot of which I support—around place, collaboration and other things that the Prime Minister has talked about.

However, we are also in touch at the front end with what is actually happening on the ground, and the word I keep hearing from colleagues across the country is “chaotic”, which is a worrying word to be hearing. Therefore, this debate and the detail that is being discussed today really matter for the NHS, for patients and for those of us who are trying to build this infrastructure. Therefore, I am encouraged that the Minister is starting off in an open, transparent and conversational manner in Committee. It is very helpful.

One of my concerns about the changes taking place at the moment is that there does not seem to be a clear vision about prevention. Those of us who have been involved in this space—in my case, I have been involved in east London, and now nationally, for over 40 years—know that on the ground, in very challenging communities, the real determinants of health often have nothing to do with doctors. If you asked our GPs in Bromley-by-Bow, they would tell you that a person getting a job does more for a person’s health than anything to do with doctors. That is why, in Bromley-by-Bow, we ended up building 97 businesses with local people, because we got real about the social determinants of health. It is about whether you have a decent home that is not damp. It is why we built a housing company, which now has 10,000 properties and owns 34% of the land in Poplar. It is to do with whether your relationships in your family are in a good place and whether you feel part of a community—all these things. The numbers that people far cleverer than me come up with say that the impact of all this is 70% to 80%.

I am not clear, with this real opportunity to reform the NHS in this century and with the things we now know, what this Government are saying about the prevention agenda and how clearly they are or are not joining the dots around the social determinants. Part of this conversation is really important, but part of it needs to be about the prevention agenda. As we work our way through Committee, we need far more clarity about what that will mean in practice and in detail in communities across this country.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, who between them have many decades more experience than I do of NHS and health and care reorganisation. I have only one major experience from the inside: the last time we were debating the restructuring of the NHS in 2021-22. At the time, as someone from the private sector, I was somewhat surprised to discover that the NHS got on with the reorganisation before the legislation was passed. It is even odder this time: the NHS has started before the legislation but without a plan itself.

Therefore, I welcome this amendment from my noble friend Lord Howe. It is essential that we understand the plan and the timetable, what it will cost and what benefits it will bring. It really is very straightforward. If that does not exist, the idea that it can be complete by 1 April next year is completely gobsmacking. Maybe I am just an innocent businesswoman who does not understand the ways of the NHS, but it just does not seem right. I think this amendment is basic common sense.

Much as I hear the words of wisdom from Don Berwick, I support merging NHS England with the Department of Health. I saw from the inside, particularly during Covid, how important it is to have clear political accountability. I support the basic premise, but I am very worried that the tendency will be to centralise rather than to push resource out to the regions and local communities. As the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, just said, it is at the local ground level that change really happens.

I am very supportive of seeing fewer people employed in organisations that bear the NHS brand but do not actually treat patients. There are tens of thousands of people who are all trying hard and doing valuable work, but they are a long way away from patients. As we bring NHS England into the department, I would love to see, as part of this amendment, a clear breakdown of the cost savings at the national, regional and local level, so that we have sight of whether we are really pushing accountability, and resource and capability, down to where change will bring the benefits that we all seek.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not intend, by and large, always to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, if I make a remark to your Lordships’ House, and I will not go into the reasons for health inequalities, because they have been spoken to very adequately by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friends Lady Royall, Lord Hunt and Lady Nargund. However, I want to say something about social care because, although the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, is quite right about public health and the need for prevention, none of this is going to work or be delivered—I make no apologies for saying this and I will keep saying it—including the 10-year plan and integrated care, unless we also address the issue of social care inequalities. As I am chair of the Social Care Institute for Excellence, the Committee would be expecting me to talk about that.

We recently did research, which has been published, about the inequities experienced by people who use social care. I thought it might be useful to remind the House what that said, because it will sound very familiar when we are talking about health inequalities. It was about people with lived experience, because our work in SCIE is based on people with lived experience, and co-production. It said:

“These policy and practice implications are reflected … by participants: a named point of contact to help them navigate the complex system … better continuity of carers to improve the quality of care and reduce the burden of having to explain one’s needs”,


as we hear time and again,

“clearer and more proactive information to ensure everybody is aware of their entitlements … investment in the workforce to encourage greater professionalism and retention … more consistent provision across areas to reduce the postcode lottery”.

We could be talking about the inequalities we have just been debating; the same applies in social care. The reassurance I seek from my noble friend the Minister is that that will be recognised as we go through this legislation.

[Lord Mawson (CB)]

My Lords, I found this an interesting debate, and I am sympathetic to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and particularly that of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, because he is right that very little is actually being learned. My colleagues and I have listened, over the years, to lots of conversations about health inequalities. When you spend your life in very challenging housing estates and see very little changing, you know about the distance between all the words and the practice.

That is why, many years ago, we decided to focus on practice and the doing of things, rather than the talking about things. We began to realise what every parent knows: that you only really learn by doing. When I started to work with GPs, originally in east London, they began by telling me that was how you became a GP. You saw one, you did one and then you taught one; it was a very practical matter. Businesses and entrepreneurs nowadays know that you learn by doing things. Yet in the state, which often feels so out of date in the NHS, there is no learning by doing culture. There is a learning by writing very fine reports, often at 60,000 feet, that seem very unengaged with practice.

Over the years, it has been interesting to observe what happened through practice. The Bromley-by-Bow model is well known, so I will not use it, but the noble Earl, Lord Howe, knows that I was also responsible for the transformation of a street following a murder and 10,000 illegal injections being given out in a housing estate. There were some terribly violent circumstances going on at the time. When I brought the first key people on the street together, all of them—the GP, the school and the housing association—were saying, “We cannot deal with this on our own. We need to do it together. These things are so interconnected”, and we built together the St Paul’s Way Transformation Project, which started with nothing and led to a new £40 million school, a £16 million health centre, 600 homes and now a new primary school.

We joined it up, and Professor Brian Cox and I led our 14th science summer school in June this year, with a masterclass at the end of it on quantum physics, for the children from the same housing estates. It is the same children and same families, and now they have one of the best performing schools in Tower Hamlets. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, helped us greatly at one key point with learning by doing, when he met the whole group—housing, health and education—when the NHS was getting in the way of us completing on the deal for the health centre. He was very helpful in enabling that to actually happen.

It was Duncan Selbie, the chief executive of Public Health England in 2015, who gave me £20 million and said, “Andrew, take this culture that you’ve been developing into the north of England”. We built 10 learning by doing innovation platforms in Rotherham, Bradford, Doncaster and Bootle, all of which were about bringing people together to learn about these matters. It was interesting that when I met the public health officials in each of these places, who were lovely people quoting all the same data that I had heard many times before, and said to them, “What are you actually going to do about that data?”, there was absolute silence. It was not their fault. They did not have the skills to know how to turn fine words into practice for some of the most challenging communities in this country.

It is my view that one of the things being missed in this moment is the serious need to get real about innovation and learning by doing. My colleagues and I—I declare my interests—are at the moment creating at place, on the ground, with local people and professionals, what we call these learning by doing innovation platforms, so that we bring together the actual GP, business person and local resident, and you begin to explore these issues together because in the modern world, health is everybody’s business. It is not just a matter for GPs. It is interconnected and we need to explore what that means.

My concern about where we are at the moment in discussing this Bill, which is a fantastic opportunity for this Government, and this country, to move into a form of health that is of this century and not last century, is that we are going to end up building a lot of biomedical boxes around this country that do not explore these interfaces in some of our most challenging communities. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, is right; we need to worry about why he is right and why things are not being learnt.

I finish with the thought that it is our experience over the years that, sadly, we have to say that, in so many respects, the NHS is not a learning organisation. We must have hosted 70 Government Ministers to our work over the years. They all come and say, “Wow, this is fantastic, we need to do more of it”. I can name the four who did anything practical about that, and the other 66 sit on a list in this pocket. This is not to do with bad people. It is about whether, as a nation, we are now going to get upstream into prevention and health creation and create a learning by doing environment in which we all learn together, and in which local people are part of all of that process.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, this is a very important group of amendments, and it has been a really excellent debate. One of the most pressing issues facing us is the widening gap in health outcomes between different communities. Healthy life expectancy has fallen in recent years and the gap between the most and least deprived areas of England, as we have heard, now stands at almost 20 years.

The point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, when he talked about the role of the department being one of leadership for health across government, not just running the NHS, is really important as we approach this group of amendments. We have heard clearly that the current legislative framework places relatively weak duties on government to address these wider determinants of health and tackle inequalities.

The House of Commons Health and Social Care Select Committee, in its scrutiny of the Bill, called for a stronger focus on improving the nation’s health and tackling inequalities, emphasising the need for clearer accountability and a more robust approach to prevention across government. Many of the amendments in this group would help to achieve that aim by ensuring that reducing health inequalities becomes a central objective of health policy, and that progress is measured and reported transparently.

My noble friend Lady Walmsley’s amendments, spoken to by my noble friend Lady Tyler, and Amendment 7 from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would strengthen the duty on the Secretary of State to take steps or action, rather than simply “have regard to”. That is really important. Amendment 14, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, and supported by so many Members of the House today, would require the Secretary of State

“to have specific regard to reducing inequalities”

in coastal communities. The point has been made clearly about the added complexities for such communities, whether those are workforce related or in local service provision. Those are really important.

My Amendment 20 looks at health inequalities in urban areas and requests a strategy and an annual report. Impact on Urban Health, which is part of Guy’s & St Thomas’ Foundation, recently reported its State of Urban Health research and found that preventable mortality is 2.7 times higher in the most deprived urban neighbourhoods in England than in the least deprived. Urban areas also face some of England’s starkest health inequalities, with people living just streets apart experiencing significant differences in health. You have only to look over the river to the London Borough of Lambeth, where Impact on Urban Health is based: females who live just over a mile apart face an eight-year gap in life expectancy. As we have heard, these inequalities are driven by unfair and avoidable differences in everyday environments. These include exposure to air pollution, differences in housing quality and access to healthy, affordable food. I pulled this area out for specific attention: rather like the coastal communities amendment, it needs specific action.

My noble friend Baroness Tyler spoke strongly to Amendment 18, which would require a cross-government health inequality strategy and subsequent annual reports to Parliament on progress. That would focus minds and energy across government and would address the key point from the Health and Social Care Select Committee, as well as many of our suggestions in amendments and today’s debate.

If we are serious about narrowing the gap in healthy life expectancy and giving everyone the opportunity to live a healthier life, then action on the wider determinants of health and tackling health inequalities must sit at the heart of the Bill, not at its margins. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.