House of Lords: Sittings

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I do not read the Guardian: I read the Spalding Guardian but what used to be called the Manchester Guardian has passed me by.

I suggest to the noble Lord that this is all good fun, but the truth of the matter is that government continues, and government continues to negotiate, as indeed it is charged by Parliament to do. We all know that that is the element which the noble Lord chooses to ignore. As I say, there are occasions when the House has to sit in August because it cannot agree to pass legislation, but that is not the case here. We have had an extremely good period of getting through Bills, even though there is widespread debate on all sides of the House about them. We spent 157 hours, as the noble Lord said, considering the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, and so far in this Session we have passed 28 Bills. Twenty-eight Bills have received Royal Assent on a whole range of sundry matters; it is not just Brexit-related legislation, although there will indeed be other Brexit legislation on the House’s forthcoming agenda, because that is what this Government are about. They are about providing good government and dealing with issues as they arrive.

As I say, beyond the narrow self-interest that a Government Chief Whip might always have in Parliament being available to pass and to scrutinise legislation, I cannot accept the noble Lord’s Motion. We must bear in mind that it is not only Members who wear themselves out in the interests of Parliament; it is also the staff, who are always here. We are served by excellent staff, and they too are entitled to leave. They can take their leave only when the House is not sitting, and to suggest to them that they have to come back and look after the affairs of the House during recess is a little selfish and, frankly, not in the interests of Parliament in the longer run.

I see the noble Lord, Lord Laming, who is chairman of the Services Committee, on which I serve, in his place. I hope he will be able to elucidate some of the detailed work that is required in this place. Of course, the House can be here at any time, if necessary, to serve the public interest, but certain works are programmed for this period which I think noble Lords would not wish to see abandoned or postponed.

So I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. We have had a good debate on the Statement on the withdrawal agreement Bill, and I have promised that there will be a debate on the White Paper when noble Lords have had a chance to read and consider it, so that the House can show yet again that it is interested in Brexit and in advising the Government on Brexit, as quite rightly it should. In the meantime, I hope the noble Lord will consider that it is not sensible to accept his Motion.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that my noble friend wishes us to return in 13 days’ time and for your Lordships’ House to get on with scrutinising Brexit legislation. I confess that this confuses me a little, as earlier in the year he appeared to be calling for Brexit legislation to go as slowly as possible, although I readily accept that that may be my misunderstanding. Government can and does continue over the summer, as does opposition. I feel sure that a break will ensure that noble Lords are fully rested and re-energised for the full job of scrutinising the Government’s decisions, or lack of them, on our return. My noble friend has been working long and hard in recent months, and I suggest that he, too, is ready for a break.

Lastly, the staff of the House will have planned breaks months ago and, indeed, deserve a proper break from us. Essential maintenance in the building must also be done. I have to tell my noble friend that we cannot and will not support the Motion before your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, this is the sort of Motion that Oppositions are often keen to support, provided that they are not going to win. A number of considerations arise from it. There is no doubt that we all need a break—and if I may say so to my friend Lord Adonis, he is being a little parsimonious with the break that he intends to give us. That break is needed for reflection.

I am one of those who, like the Government Chief Whip, are heading for France, where I hope to see the revitalised French nation with its message and vision of hope, and leave behind the sorry picture of this country, so divided as we are on our future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, it is for the perfectly simple reason that we are adjourning today, so today is the appropriate time to consider this Motion. It is on a Motion for the adjournment.

I of course understand the importance of people taking holidays, but most people in this country manage to arrange their affairs so that they take a few weeks of holiday over the summer. They do not take 10 weeks. In the normal course of events it might be reasonable for Parliament to go into recess for a longer period over the summer, although my own view is that in normal times Parliament spends far too much time in recess and far too little attending to the affairs of the nation. However, given our current position, with the crisis in Brexit negotiations that will continue all the way through the summer in the absence of Parliament, and because of Parliament’s inability due to the overwhelming concern with Brexit affairs to address the other needs of the nation while we have been sitting, it is a perfectly reasonable proposition for us to continue sitting during the summer. Indeed, I think it imperative if there is to be any parliamentary oversight of the Brexit process. The one thing that cannot happen is Parliament exercising oversight while it does not meet, which it will not over the next two months.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Laming, that while I understand that he chairs the Services Committee and has a schedule of work and so on, the services of the House exist to serve the House. The House does not exist to meet timetables for the conduct of work in the House. If it is your Lordships’ will that we should conduct our duties over the summer, I am sure that the staff of the House will continue to perform their duties with the excellence they always show.

I understand the response of the Government because the Government always want Parliament to go into recess. I know from my time in government that the job of the Chief Whip is to see that the House meets as infrequently as possible and creates as little mischief as possible while it is meeting. That is the job of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. His role is to see that the Government get everything through as quickly as possible and with as little debate and controversy as possible. Our job is to see that we do our duty, which is to see that things are properly debated and that we meet for the time that is needed to conduct those affairs.

I was much more disappointed by my noble friend Lord McAvoy. I think he felt he had my best interests at heart in saying that I would benefit from a holiday. I hugely appreciate his deep, solicitous concern for my welfare. If I may say so, I think that the Opposition have been on one long holiday for the entire period of Brexit, which is part of the reason why the country is in this crisis situation at the moment. A deeply ideological Government are pushing through an extreme policy, but the Opposition have been largely absent from the scene, as we can see this afternoon.

[Lord McAvoy]

Does my noble friend consider that in the 15 defeats that we inflicted upon the Conservative Government we were not doing our job?

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I am very glad that we scrutinised the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill in the way that we did, but when my noble friend reads the Guardian—unlike the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, he reads the Guardian—he will see the list of Bills that I am proposing we should debate over the summer. I would be very glad to know which of them my noble friend objects to and whether he objects to us addressing the need for a radical home-building programme or extending rights to abortion and equal marriage in Northern Ireland. I would be very glad to know from him and from my noble friends on the Front Bench whether they believe that those Bills are superfluous and that it is better that we are in recess rather than attending to the needs of the country.

We are in a very deep crisis as a country. It is as well that we put these matters on record because people will look back on our affairs and will observe our affairs from outside. I believe that we have not conducted ourselves in the way that the country would expect. I do not detect huge support for this Motion in the House. Indeed, I am not even sure I have enough support to press the matter to a vote. If some of my noble friends on the Lib Dem Benches will support me and if there is enough support, I will press this to a vote because it is important that noble Lords should have their views recorded on whether we should now go on 10 weeks’ holiday. I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.