Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, one of the advantages of the Bill—as I have read it and, I hope, understood it—is that it is a receptacle in central government for the proposals coming from local government. There are not really any severe restrictions on that. There was one, on which we had a Division, that may well have resulted in an even more rigid arrangement than was in place or, indeed, than the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, thought when he moved it. Anyway, I shall not go into that now.
Originally the Bill was intended to be extremely flexible on this question, with suggestions from any size of authority and any combination of authority. I entirely accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, has said, with her great experience of local government. I am sure that there is scope for a great number of different types of co-operation that will have the effect of bringing forward the sort of proposals made by the noble Lord opposite when he was Deputy Prime Minister—at that time it was the north in particular, but this is about the possibility of co-operation throughout the country—that can give life to the economic aspirations of the people of an area.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, as we have heard, my noble friend Lady Hollis has tabled two types of amendment to enhance the flexibility of the Bill. The first type of amendment, Amendments 2 and 8, seeks to enable combined authorities or individual authorities to which functions have been transferred to pool some or all of these functions with other combined authorities or local authorities. We hope that that in particular will find favour with the Minister, who might not even need these amendments to do that.
The second type, Amendment 6, would give a wide discretion to the Secretary of State to establish combined authorities or economic prosperity boards—we have not debated them much during the course of the Bill—by combining different functions in different areas. That would require the consent of appropriate authorities, and would have to demonstrate the improvement of statutory functions. This amendment in particular would enable local authorities to be part of one combined authority for some functions and part of another combined authority for others.
My noble friend has argued a strong case about the needs of medium-sized cities, particularly those in county settings. As we know now, this is not just a theoretical issue; it has been driven by her own experience in Norwich and by her wide contacts in other areas, which she spoke about today, who have identified with her analysis. As my noble friend has said, we are grateful for the opportunity yesterday to discuss these issues, and we anticipate an encouraging response in relation to Amendments 2 and 8, even if Amendment 6, about the opportunity for someone to be part of one combined authority for some functions and another combined authority for others, may be a step too far at this stage. We look forward to the Minister’s comments on that.
This is about ensuring that all areas have the opportunity to engage effectively with devolution opportunities. I conclude with a suggestion for the Minister about possibly convening a conference for the type of authority that my noble friend has identified to flesh out some of the very important issues that she has raised.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord McKenzie of Luton and Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this has been an extensive and good debate and the time moves on, so forgive me if I do not respond to each point that noble Lords have made, whether it was as a trip through history about what has happened to elected mayors or the stage that we have reached today. The problems with the London system, some of the time, and the difficulties that other areas have found were mentioned.
I would like to challenge the proposition that the amendments are wrecking amendments. I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that that really is not the case. It was not the intent and is not their substance. If we look at the thrust of all the amendments that are before us today and will be on Wednesday, they are overwhelmingly about trying to improve the Bill and achieve the very thing that he wants and campaigns for. It is unhelpful to characterise these amendments as wrecking when, in total, we are trying to improve the Bill so that devolution can be delivered across the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the pertinent questions about major powers—what is in and what is out—and of course we got the usual answer. I do not think that anybody sees it as a credible response to say that nothing is being imposed on people because the Bill is a framework Bill, in circumstances where the Government make it absolutely clear from the start that you can get certain powers only if you have an elected mayor. That is not a process of not imposing anything on anybody. It is making sure that the price paid is very clear up front, in some circumstances. It is very unclear in other circumstances what price will be asked, depending on what powers are available. I am bound to say that whether we are in favour of or against elected mayors instinctively, we did not see it as a ladder up which budding leaders could climb—and even less so a retirement job for ex-Cabinet Ministers. I did not think that that was the process we were involved in today.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made a powerful speech reiterating his passion for devolution and what it could lead to. We support all that but he himself said that if somebody comes up with something it will be considered, so seemingly from his point of view there is not an inevitable imposition of an elected mayor. The noble Lord may feel that something credible would not come up, and he may or may not be right. But even he seemed to recognise that there should be scope, which is effectively what Amendment 3 is seeking. It may be, in the terms used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the wording is imperfect but then it is the job of government at Third Reading to tie that up.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I am sorry to interrupt—it is not my habit—but the present Bill simply gives a discretion to the Minister, absolutely free. There is no limit on that discretion to having an elected mayor. It is a discretion to consider the particular proposals made. I understood the Government to have said in the debate that the idea of an elected mayor, while very attractive from their point of view, was not essential for every proposal that might come forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we accept that there is a discretion but we know that that discretion will inevitably be operated in certain ways in certain circumstances. The Government will insist upon an elected mayor and the discretion, which I accept is permitted under the Bill, will be exercised in a certain way. This is about trying to get clarity or preclude that being an inevitable part of a deal. If somebody wants an elected mayor and can put forward governance arrangements and credibility around all that, fine. But if they do not, why should that not inevitably be considered fairly by the Government in the negotiations which go on?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Nothing that I have seen anywhere so far says that the Government can give powers under these proposals only if there is an elected mayor. It is left completely open. All this seems to be based on is some suggestion that that is what the Government want to do. However, the Government have proposed a Bill that does not have that in it. I cannot myself see why that discretion should be limited.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
The noble and learned Lord is right that there is a discretion in the Bill, but we know, alongside that, that the Government have made it absolutely clear that an elected mayor will be insisted upon in a range of circumstances. We are seeking to determine that that insistence should be precluded, not that the option should not be available, if that is what a combined area wants. The starting point should not be that you must have an elected mayor in that range of circumstances.
It seems that there is some recognition that there should be discretion for combined authorities to come forward—the Minister has said that. It is all very well recognising that, but at the same time they are saying, in this place and in the Chancellor’s Statement at the other end, that you have to have an elected mayor, come what may. There is an inconsistency between those positions, and this amendment is trying to clarify that inconsistency. We do not think that there should be that insistence. If people want this and can come forward with a credible model, fine; but if the starting point of these deals is that you must have an elected mayor, that is wrong and we oppose it.
This a great shame because there is substantial agreement across the Chamber, I think, about the thrust of the Bill. The one point where it jars is this obsession and insistence on an elected mayor—not in the Bill itself but in terms of how we know it will be applied and how we know it is being applied in the case of Greater Manchester and other areas. That is the point that divides us. Given the support that we have across the piece for the Bill, it is a great shame that we have to divide on this, but I propose to divide and test the opinion of the House.