Elections Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, it was a real pleasure to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Moore of Etchingham. I have never met him, other than through the written word, though I have to say I must have read thousands upon thousands of those words; I felt a chemistry and was absolutely delighted when he was able to join us.

I support this Bill. I am particularly pleased that my noble friend on the Front Bench is taking it through the House, because those of us who have served on other Bills he has been in charge of know that he has patience beyond belief and a thoroughness which we all ought to recognise. The noble Baroness just said, on voting patterns, that, basically, not having won under first past the post meant that she represented a bigger proportion of the population. When I was elected with a majority of 179 in Northampton South, I believed I represented all of the people of Northampton South, not just a marginal majority, or even a majority. Perhaps she was too influenced by the green movement, and anybody else was not to be represented by her.

I look around the Chamber and I think that we who were elected are in a minority, which says something, just by way of an observation. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench, though, that I think the size of the Bill might have been helped had there been pre-legislative scrutiny, even possibly some kind of Speaker’s conference. Nevertheless, we have a large Bill and a lot of work ahead of us. I just want to highlight a couple of issues that I think are relevant. The report published by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, on regulating election finance, was an important one. I know Her Majesty’s Government have responded to a number of the points made, but I suspect that more will come up in Committee and I think it deserves some real in-depth response.

There have been one or two comments about young people not registering. I happen to have two granddaughters, aged 17 and 16—thank goodness, otherwise I would not be the least bit competent in terms of modern technology. I mix with their friends, and they are all on the ball. Okay, they are middle-class; nevertheless, I believe that with modern technology, the online and the Twitters and all the rest of it, young people today, at every level of society, will take an interest—much more than we perhaps did as young people ourselves.

I also draw attention to the evidence given to my noble friend from the RNIB, about the difficulty in voting for some people, particularly the blind. Again, there have been major developments in terms of communication for the blind and the deaf, and I hope we can look at those sympathetically and not leave it totally to the discretion of the returning officer.

On photo ID, I do not have the problems that others seem to have. My noble friend Lord Leicester covered this in great depth this evening. I did have the experience of fighting a by-election in Islington North. I cannot remember whether it was the Times or the Daily Telegraph that observed how it appeared that in one particular community a large number of people—estimated at a dozen—were represented by one particular person who delivered the vote with the voting cards. At any rate, that issue has been dealt with, so we do not have this problem today.

I will raise one other issue that has not been raised by anybody else. As I have just mentioned, I was elected in February 1974 with a majority of 179 votes. I actually lost by nearly 200 on the first vote. I had a tip-off from the deputy returning officer saying, “Break the bundles”. In those days, we voted with elastic bands around 25 votes—four 25s are 100—and a sticker on the top, “Lab”, “Lib” or “Con”. So I duly told my agent, “We need to break the bundles”. Lo and behold, I actually won by about four or five votes the next time. Understandably, my opponent, the Labour candidate, said he wanted a recount—and I ended up with 179. I do think that we need to look at the security or accuracy of voting, so that we do not have to have all these recounts. It must be possible to achieve that in today’s world.

Finally, I return to the fact that, on 19 February 2019, I had a very important Bill—the Extension of Franchise (House of Lords) Bill—which I was pleased to present to this House. It had a Second Reading but ran out of time. That was an important Bill because we are the only upper House, of nearly 200 in the world, where none of us may vote in a general election. The reason given, since 1699, is that we control finance here—but we do not. We do not vote on financial matters; those days have gone. It is high time to address this. With the help of my friend opposite, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs—both of whom have had similar Bills— I hope we can produce a suitable amendment to this particular Bill.

Elections Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not claim that this is the most important amendment we have discussed. We debated it quite thoroughly in Committee, so I do not want to take up the time of the House more than very briefly indeed. As I recall, when we discussed this in Committee, there were two arguments against the amendment. One argument was that we can exercise an influence on politics and therefore we should not have the right to vote in elections, and the second argument was that because Members of the House of Lords are not here for a finite period of time, it is not right if we vote, and that allows the Bishops to be the exception. I remind your Lordships that of some 140-plus countries that are members of the IPU, we are the only one that does not allow Members of the second Chamber to vote in general elections.

Of course we have an influence when we are here, but it seems to me that the argument for voting is to give us a chance to influence the Government. Quite a few of us spend our time canvassing in elections. We work pretty hard; in the last election, I canvassed, working in seven or eight constituencies all the way from Yorkshire to south London. Then I find, on the day of the election, I cannot vote. It is frustrating, but it also seems to me to be wrong in principle. The right to vote is fundamental in a democracy. Arguments against our being able to vote are, frankly, based much more on long-standing traditions than on substantive arguments and logic.

The last thing I would say is this. During the passage of this Bill, I have asked everybody I know outside whether they know we are not allowed to vote. There is not a person I have met outside this House who is aware we are not allowed to vote. It really is a bit odd. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for having signed the amendment as well. I urge the Government to accept it. The world will not come to an end and Boris Johnson will not resign—just do it. I beg to move.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend on the Opposition Benches. I did indeed have my own Bill: the Extension of Franchise (House of Lords) Bill. It had its First Reading on 5 July 2017, its Second Reading on 19 July 2019 and then it ran out of time. I am not going to repeat the speech I made then, but I have done a bit of research, otherwise it is all assertion.

I was born 85 years ago and, in that year, in this very Chamber, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede moved an amendment that is almost identical to the one we are debating today. He referred to the fact that in days gone by

“Peers were regarded as powerful potentates and had a number of special privileges accord to them.”

He said that if noble Lords were to do any research, they would find out that, in 1642, The Privileges of the Baronage of England declared no end of privileges. Indeed, you could have your own chaplain and, if you were married, there were special provisions for your wives and children. Since those days, there have been a few changes. Lord Ponsonby went on to point out:

“Practically all the privileges I can think of have been dropped. It now remains for the restrictions and disabilities to be dropped too. We must recognise that we live in a democratic age”—


this was in 1936—

“and just as we desire no advantages for ourselves personally or for our positions we, at the same time, do not wish that there should be any restrictions or disabilities placed upon us. I want to make it perfectly clear, my Lords, that I do not want to raise the question of the reform of the House of Lords.”—[Official Report, 12/2/1936; col. 537.]

Nor does my noble friend opposite and nor do I. It is pretty clear that almost as long ago as a century, those disabilities and interests that were once there no longer applied.

It is also true that the vast majority of us work hard for those in our constituencies when there is a general election. We live in a constituency, we look after the local people in those constituencies, and all of us are involved in all sorts of clubs and followings in our constituencies, so nobody can say that we do not take part in elections. We take part in local elections and any other elections, but for some extraordinary reason, because of this ball and chain that is left over from the 17th century, we cannot take part in general elections. Here we are now, with us in this House, prisoners and lunatics all in one bag. I do not think that is acceptable.

I conclude with these thoughts. First, we do not vote on the Budget. We do not have the power to vote on taxation. To me, that is crucial. Secondly, there have been precedents. In 1909, Irish Peers were given the right to vote. Today, the Lords spiritual have the right to vote in general elections. They sit on their Bench in your Lordships’ House and they vote. What is the difference?

People say that one Lord voting will make no difference, but have a look at the register, as I have done. I remind your Lordships that in 1997 Winchester was won by the Liberal Democrats, and by how many votes?

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

Two votes.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Two votes. The noble Lord is quite right. I do not know whether any noble Lords from the Welsh Benches are here, but in 1974 Carmarthen was won by Labour by three votes. My dear friend Harmar Nicholls—a man who had more tight elections than anybody else—again won by three votes. If you are lucky enough to have three Lords in a constituency, that could make a huge difference. The Liberal Democrats probably would not have won Winchester if two Lords had lived there.

I repeat that this has nothing at all to do with reform of the House of Lords. It is just about individual liberty and responsibility. We all support our local communities, as I mentioned. In return, I wish to go with my wife to vote at the polling station. I do not want to stand outside while she goes in; I want to vote alongside her. I believe it is my democratic right, which I was given to implement and which I exercised from the age of 18 until 1997. It is vital, and I hope very much that other noble Lords will take us over this final fence. After all, if the Irish Peers were made an exception, why do we not join the Irish community as well?

[Lord Hacking (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been disfranchised twice. I was disfranchised in 1972, when I first entered the House and was disfranchised with lunatics and criminals. The second time I was disfranchised was in December last year, when I had the opportunity to come back to the House following a hereditary Peers’ by-election. Now I am no longer in the company of criminals and those in prison—I am not quite sure about lunatics—because, as I recall, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Clarke, was Lord Chancellor, a provision from the European Court of Human Rights restored, or at least gave, the right to vote to those in prison. I think I have therefore lost the criminality side of my company, but I am not sure whether I have also lost the lunatics.

This is, as my noble friend Lord Dubs said, not the most important amendment being considered in the House, but it is an anomaly that is unjustified. In Committee, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, argued for the Government that we should not have two bites of the cherry—this is my language, rather than his—because we are directly involved in legislation; if we had the vote, we would have a different way of expressing our views. Then the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, argued that, since the House of Commons rises after a Dissolution—not after a Prorogation—the Lords are treated differently from Members of the House of Commons. The truth is that we are treated in very much the same way following a Dissolution, because once Parliament has been dissolved, we are not entitled to come back to the House until we have received a Writ of Summons and get sworn in. We are therefore not in a different position from the House of Commons. This is an anomaly and should be changed, but it is not one of the most important amendments being considered by the Minister, who is sitting back on his Bench with his arms folded, looking at me with a patient look.