EU Relations

Lord Newby Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for advanced sight of his Statement. However, I express my disappointment that this is the second time in as many months that he has waited until the final day before a recess to make a Statement on such important issues. He knows that some colleagues may not be present and that, importantly, the other place is not sitting. The Statement may well be repeated by the Paymaster-General in due course, but there will be a significant delay and I do not see anything in the Minister’s text that could not have been shared with both Houses on Monday or Tuesday.

We all know that the Government’s position on these matters often fails to stand up to scrutiny, but it is only right that he and his colleagues in the other place subject themselves to that scrutiny. I have suggested before that continuing the Brexit melodrama suits the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues. He has been dismissive, but perhaps the hope in No.10 is that this battle will finally distract the papers and public from the sleaze accusations—call me cynical.

We welcome the Minister’s update on discussions with the French Government, the Commission and our friends in Guernsey and Jersey around fishing licences. During the passage of the Fisheries Act, your Lordships’ House warned that the timescales for implementing a new licensing system were tight and that issues such as these may arise. Clearly, this does not excuse some of the interventions we have seen during the recent dispute, and we hope that all sides can continue these discussions in the calmer manner seen during recent days.

On Horizon, it is of course disappointing that ratification of the UK’s participation is taking so long. As the pandemic has shown, cross-border academic collaboration can only be a good thing. UK researchers have already faced a huge amount of uncertainty as the Government weighed up whether to participate in programmes such as Horizon. Now that the decision has been made and enshrined in the TCA, as noted by the Minister, the EU must act accordingly. He says that, if the EU does not comply, the Government will create a domestic equivalent, so can he confirm what contingency planning may already be taking place? When could such a scheme be operational? I am happy for him to write to me on that.

We have all watched with interest and alarm in recent days as the rhetoric around Article 16 is once again ratcheted up. We read of potential dates for the UK to trigger a trade dispute, and of others on which Mr Šefčovič will outline retaliatory measures. Cooler heads must now prevail. We have also seen reports that the Minister is seeking outside legal advice on rewriting the protocol, including on the Court of Justice issue. Commentators suspect that this is to prevent the Attorney-General having to overrule in-house legal advice, so can the Minister confirm whether such a search is indeed under way?

This also brings us back to the question of when Parliament will see the legal text sent to Brussels by the Government. We were told that it merely replicated the contents of the Command Paper in legalese, but if that is the case, why is new advice necessary? Does he intend to produce a revised draft? Why were Ministers in Northern Ireland not consulted? It is clear from the Minister’s Statement that UK-EU relations have not significantly improved, despite the diplomatic mastery that he deployed during his short trip to Lisbon.

Following each week of talks, we hear that, rather than bridging gaps, the two sides are growing further apart. That will not only deeply disappoint UK businesses but, as we move into the festive period, frustrate them too. This is not a game to them; rather, it is about getting products on shelves and sustaining people’s livelihoods. At the time of publication, a month ago, a variety of business groups believed that the Commission’s proposals represented a significant step forward. We know that there are disputes, but there remains widespread agreement that there would be significant improvement.

Central to this are the people and communities of Northern Ireland. The evidence increasingly shows that they want a deal between the EU and UK, not another stand-off, with all the uncertainty that that brings. The respected Liverpool Institute for Irish Studies found that people of Northern Ireland oppose the use of Article 16 and instead want solutions.

Business groups in Northern Ireland are demanding a deal. Seamus Leheny of Logistics UK said that

“a UK-EU negotiated outcome is vital”

for the economy. Interestingly, he has not had any representation over the ECJ whatsoever from his 18,000 members. That is why Labour has called on the UK and EU to bring Northern Ireland’s leaders and communities into the process to speak for themselves. It is simply untenable to say to the people of Northern Ireland, “This is what we’ve decided: take it or leave it”. Northern Ireland must be involved in these talks and in the huge decisions being made about its future.

The Minister has said on several occasions that he stands ready to look at any and all proposals for improving the flow of trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, wherever they may come from. Why, then, has he been so reticent to seriously consider the idea of a wide-ranging, long-lasting veterinary agreement that is backed by organisations like the CBI? The EU has previously signalled that such a deal can be done, so why is that not currently at least on the table?

Although it increasingly feels inevitable, it continues to be our view that triggering Article 16 would be a destabilising step for businesses and communities alike. It may serve the Government well to maintain division, but it does nothing for anyone else. The Minister has been clear that he does not like the protocol. We know that, because he tours the studios every week telling the country of all the problems he has found with the deal that he personally negotiated.

But the evidence shows that, whatever the Minister wants, people in Northern Ireland want a deal. It is time for the Minister to show some responsibility. He should work constructively with the EU to find solutions, and then, if he still can, given everything that has happened, he must play an active role in rebuilding support and trust among all communities in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for making the Statement. However, just as he refers to the production by the EU of “non-papers”, it seems to me that this is largely a non-Statement. It contains nothing new and largely consists of yet more sabre-rattling—something that, I have to accept, the Minister excels at. He says that the trade and co-operation agreement is working well. According to the OBR, its effect is that our GDP will be 4% lower than if we had remained in the EU, so I suppose we should be very grateful that it is not working badly.

Underlying all the issues to which the Statement refers are two substantive problems for the Government. The first relates to trust. As the Minister made clear in his Lisbon speech, the UK is widely distrusted as a reliable partner. As a result, everything becomes more difficult, and what should be relatively small, easily resolvable issues, such as the licensing of fishing boats, become potential major flashpoints.

The second is that there exists at the heart of the Northern Ireland problem the irresolvable issue of where the EU-UK trade boundary is set. The Government in reality do not want a boundary at all when it comes to GB trading with Northern Ireland but want one when it comes to trading with the EU. The Good Friday agreement means that they cannot possibly have this best of both worlds. In seeking to achieve that impossibility, the Government are, understandably, running into problems, but it is completely disingenuous for the Minister to protest about unintended consequences of having a border down the Irish Sea when the Government’s own impact statement at the time set out in major detail exactly what those deleterious impacts would be. The Minister negotiated the deal. I cannot believe that he did not understand the consequences at the time. Did he think that it would be possible to live with them, or did he even then think that he could renege on the deal once the main trade and co-operation agreement had been signed? Either way, he was less than straightforward in presenting the deal as a Great British negotiating success.

On the operation of the protocol, the EU has made very substantive concessions which appear to offer the prospect of a resolution of the main operational problems. In these circumstances, repeatedly to dangle the prospect of Article 16 in front of the EU just looks like a provocation which will make the negotiations harder rather than easier. At the weekend, in commenting on the Article 16 threat, Sir John Major said that it was “colossally stupid” and “un-Conservative”. In part, he said this because it would threaten a trade war with the EU, a prospect which Simon Coveney again raised at the weekend, which would indeed be colossally stupid. But in part also, he said it because it undermines the Government’s central claim that they “got Brexit done”. Triggering Article 16 would lead to chaos and confusion, when businesses, not least in Northern Ireland, want stability and continuity. It would be the opposite of Brexit having been done. How, therefore, does the Minister rebut Sir John’s comments? How does he respond to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that the majority of people in the Province do not believe that triggering Article 16 is in their best interests or that the potential involvement of the European Court of Justice is a red line—it is not; it is for the Minister, but it is not for the people in Northern Ireland.

It is overwhelmingly in the national interest to deal unemotionally with the problems in the operation of the protocol on the basis of the proposals now on the table. Can the Minister assure the House that he will finally put his sabre away and just get back to straight- forward negotiating?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for their reactions to my comments. I will try to deal with the points they raised systematically by subject.

On the initial point raised by the noble Baroness about the timing of the Statement, international business has its own timetable. Unfortunately, there are meetings and contacts the whole time which shape outcomes. It was our view that this was the most sensible moment to give a clear update in the best knowledge of the situation. We will continue to update the House at the right moment to keep it up to date with developments.

On the question of whether the TCA is working well, I think it is. That there are disputes over fisheries and Horizon does not change the fact that this vast agreement, the biggest anywhere, has come into effect with remarkably little difficulty. I have expressed before my scepticism—although I recognise that people can have different views—about some of the predictions of the economic effect of Brexit. I continue to be sceptical about the particular figure referred to by the noble Lord; I think we will see real life set this out in due course.

On fisheries, I thank the noble Baroness for recognising that the position that the French Government have taken is not reasonable; I do not think it is. That we are dealing with this question quite late in the year and the timetable is tight is of course because the French Government did not send the necessary paperwork for the applications to the Commission until June, half way through the year, and most of the evidence we needed arrived only in September. So, what is represented as a very long discussion is in fact quite a short one; most of the 1,800 licences that I referred to were given before the start of this year or in the first week of the year. We are doing our best and we proceed according to the evidence. Discussions are continuing this week and I am sure we will get to a fair outcome.

On Horizon, obviously, contingency planning takes place for all eventualities. We had hoped that it would not be needed, and I still hope that it will not be needed. I am very happy to set out in writing where things stand on this subject, because it is of huge importance to a large number of universities and research institutes, not just in this country but across Europe, which have an interest in collaborating with us. I repeat that much the best thing is if we can see that the treaty is delivered on, we are able to join and things can proceed as we expected. I still hope that can happen.

On Northern Ireland, there is a lot to say and some of it has been said before, but I repeat that, in our view, Article 16 is not inevitable—I want to be clear about that. It is much better to come to a negotiated agreement; that is the best way forward for stability, sustainability and prosperity in Northern Ireland. That is what we are working to do, but the safeguards are there if it is not possible to deliver that outcome. I am not concluding at the moment that that outcome is not possible; I think it is, and we are working hard to deliver it. Obviously, we look at the real-world situation in Northern Ireland and the stark division of opinion that is clear from the polling, and that shapes the situation we are dealing with. We think it is absolutely legitimate to use safeguards which were put in place for exactly this situation if that is the best way of supporting stability in Northern Ireland. However, let us see whether we can avoid that situation.

On legal advice, I think the noble Baroness would not expect me to disclose the details of legal advice and how the work of the Attorney-General is done, but I hope that she agrees that we would want her to have the best possible advice, reflecting the full range of opinion on these very sensitive and unprecedented questions. I think that is a reasonable expectation.

On the negotiation process, I do not think it is true that we—the UK and the EU—are growing apart in the negotiations. We have inched a little bit closer; there has been some movement, and that is good. We just are not moving together quickly enough, and the gap is still an extremely wide one. However, there has been some incremental progress. It was our hope that that could have been quicker and more substantive, but we are trying.

I do not think it is true that, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, the EU proposals offer a satisfactory solution to the problem that we now face. As I said, we will set out our view on that in detail in due course. For example, they do not eliminate a single customs declaration for any good moving into Northern Ireland. The famous 50% figure is actually a 50% reduction in the number of fields in the customs declaration, with most of the significant ones still remaining—it is not a 50% elimination of process. On medicines, we still do not have a situation that deals with the reality of the fact that the regulator in Northern Ireland is not the MHRA but the EMA, so there is clearly a risk of divergence and not being able to deliver medicines to the whole country—and we have to deal with that. So they make progress, but they do not take us the whole way there.

To repeat, we would like to get to an agreement. We are working hard to get to one, and we talk to all ranges of Northern Ireland opinion. I spoke only yesterday to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to update them on the talks, and we continue to proceed in a way that we hope will make the best progress. I do not think that the threats that are swirling around of a reaction to Article 16 are in any way helpful, but obviously that is the business of the European Union.

I conclude that we want to find a solution to this. It is obvious that the protocol is not the only possible solution to the set of problems that are presented to us in Northern Ireland. There are other solutions and possibilities—we set them out in our Command Paper—and we still think that that would be the best way forward to provide a sustainable, stable solution in everybody’s interests in Northern Ireland.