Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Shipley Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dear]

My Lords, since 1997 I have been continuously engaged as a non-executive director or a non-executive chairman, so I understand the environment we are talking about. It is difficult to argue against the principle that has been put forward by the noble Lord in proposing his amendment. However, I have a number of reservations. It seems that four to seven non-executive directors plus a panel is getting a bit cumbersome. I understand the principle of the non-executives arising from the Cadbury report, the Hampel report and others. Businesses quite rightly find themselves almost being pushed into the mode of having to have non-executive advice.

It is the word “shall” in the amendment that bothers me. I assume that it is a paving amendment and I hope that it will be withdrawn, but perhaps it is a proposal for the Minister to take back. In short, I applaud the principle of non-executive advice, but I am not sure whether four, five, six or seven non-executives should be in place at any one time. It could be that the non-executives advise the panel rather than the PCC. In short, the whole principle of the non-executive is one to look at closely. I am not sure that it should be mandatory.

[Lord Shipley]

I rise to support the thinking behind this amendment because throughout the passage of the Bill through the other place I think that the over -centralisation of power in one person was encouraged. That concern remains. What can be done to ensure that there is due probity, audit, equality of opportunity in appointments and so on given the powers that the Bill currently is going to give to the police commissioner?

The context is extremely important. It is not clear to me where the commissioner is to be based, in what kind of offices and with what level of staffing. A close reading of the Bill indicates that this is perceived to be cost-neutral, that the costs of salaries will be subsumed within existing budgets and that grants provided to the police will supply the additional resources required. But it would help to have a discussion about how big the staffing support structures for the police and crime commissioner are going to be. We note that there will a chief executive and a chief finance officer. The consequence is that underneath those chiefs there must be some other people, and those other people will cost significant amounts of money. There is a real danger that we are going to end up with an alternative structure of bureaucracy being created which actually is not necessary. At the moment, police authorities are housed elsewhere, and get their supplies and support in other people’s premises. For me, therefore, this amendment is extremely helpful in that it identifies the fact that we need to be clear what the support structures are going to look like in detail for the police commissioner.

I take absolutely the point about the nature of the appointments. Who are the people who can apply and how will they be appointed? Perhaps I may suggest that the obvious thing to do would be to use Nolan principles. Those are used in so many other places that that is the right approach. There is the question, too, of audit. It is not clear from the Bill exactly what audit requirements will apply in practice to the management of the police and crime commissioner’s office.

There are therefore many questions around this matter which make me believe that there has to be a further discussion about the size, powers and nature of the panels and about the nature of any non-executive board, be it of four members or seven members or whatever it turns out to be. The precise roles of those board members need to be made clear, because they will be different from those of the panel members. The non-executive board is to do with probity in finances, equality and the way staff appointments and so on are being made. They are not full-time appointments; I am not even sure that they have to be substantially remunerated, although, clearly, expenses would have to be paid. The boards are different from the panels, which are essentially about the nature of policing and supporting the police and crime commissioner in that aspect of their work.

I give a guarded welcome to the amendment but it is part of a broader discussion about the police and crime commissioner’s office.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, did the Committee a service before dinner in drawing our attention to Amendment 62, where there is a specific reference to the staff of the police commissioner. It would be helpful if my noble friend in responding to the debate were to fill in some of the detail of what the Government envisage this staff to consist of, so that the Committee can have a sense of what the structure will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Henig]

In supporting the amendment, I thank my noble friend for moving it. I am worried that we will be told that since police and crime commissioners will probably do these things anyway, it will not be necessary to write them into the Bill. I anticipate that that might be the line of argument and I want to say that it should be included in the Bill to stress its importance. Policing is a major local service and, on Second Reading, I said that as originally drafted the Bill was an insult to local government because it left local government completely out of policing, which is nonsense. That is why I think that it is quite important that there should be some recognition in the Bill that local authorities need to be involved.

As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, there are significant local partnerships at work. In the past 10 years crime has come down enormously—by more than 40 per cent. One of the reasons—not the only one, but a major reason—is the quality of the local partnerships that have been established. That is at the heart of what has happened in the past 10 years and we must continue with that. We cannot allow it to stop.

In a sense—this arises from the debate this afternoon—any police and crime commissioner wanting to do a good job will want that reduction in crime to continue. For that to happen, they will have to talk to local authorities, get involved in the partnerships and understand what is happening at divisional level, because, as we know, it is at that level that divisional commanders work with local authorities day by day. In my opinion, that is the engine room of local policing and it is why this amendment is so important. I know that the Government will not want to put this measure into the Bill but, in my view—and this echoes what others have said—it is crucial that this is recognised. I urge the Government to agree to this amendment because, clearly, whoever drafted the Bill did not recognise the importance of local government.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I also warmly welcome these amendments, which raise an important issue. I declare my interest as the vice-president of the Local Government Association, and as a member of Newcastle City Council and one-time leader of that council. When I was the council leader, I strongly appreciated the regular attendance of the chief constable at meetings of our executive and at annual meetings of our full council. Indeed, one thing that I would not wish to lose here is local authorities having direct communication, contact and discussion with chief constables.

I regard talking to local authorities as a central function of being a police and crime commissioner. It is not a second-order part of the job. Listening, explaining and acting upon advice received strike me as absolutely fundamental to the role. Therefore, such meetings should be held at least twice a year with what may be large numbers of two-tier authorities. In some other areas, they might be held significantly more than twice a year, and I would welcome that very much.

It should be noted that the panels are not a replacement for that kind of democratic accountability to those who are elected locally. The panels fulfil a different function. The way in which they are currently constructed means that you cannot guarantee that every member—local authorities have only one seat—will turn up to every meeting. Therefore, the level of communication proposed in the amendments is exceedingly important in ensuring that the commissioners know what is going on in their police area.