European Union Bill

Lord Stoddart of Swindon Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

That is the provision of this amendment, and it is a sound one. It is an imperfect, incomplete way of making it clear that we have not abandoned the basic thought that we are in a parliamentary democracy and that Parliament should take decisions of this kind. We accept that, in certain cases which are specified and numerous, the people should be consulted directly. We have got that far and there is no rowing back from that. However, by passing this amendment we should emphasise that that is not all that could be said on the matter and that there is a case for taking a modest step towards a return to parliamentary democracy in this field. My noble friend on the Front Bench is never stubborn and I hope that he will feel able to smile on this amendment—or, if he grumbles, that he will grumble in a very mild voice about it. It is a move in a direction which many of us favour, although we cannot carry it as far as we might wish tonight.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

As I understand it, Amendment 5 would restore parliamentary democracy. I think that that is about right. I understand all those who are completely in favour of parliamentary democracy untrammelled, and it is difficult to argue against it. However, if you have agreed to a referendum and the people say one thing and then Parliament says another, you are back where you started. Quite frankly, I think that that would cause outrage and undermine the authority of Parliament. If Parliament has agreed that there should be a referendum of the people, the people should decide. After all, in the last analysis, one way or another, the people are the ultimate sovereign. So I cannot support Amendment 5.

Amendment 6 is different. As I understand it, it says, “This is a great issue and you should expect people, citizens, to take an interest in it and come out and vote”. The figure of 40 per cent is pretty low. Of course there are precedents, and as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, mentioned, only a week or two ago this House voted for such an amendment. On AV, it would be very difficult for the House to go back on something on which it decided a few weeks ago. It could apply in this Bill. I well remember the 1977 referendum in Scotland when—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It was in 1979.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Yes, it was in 1979. There, the 40 per cent threshold was introduced by a few people who were not very much in favour of Scottish devolution, and the proposal did not pass because of the 40 per cent. That was accepted by people. Of course, eventually, the campaign for Scottish devolution won on a reasonable and substantial majority. I am afraid that I would be against Amendment 5, but I would be very happy to support Amendment 6.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with half of what the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said and the very usual position of agreeing with absolutely everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, said, which is not surprising because I have been doing that for a long time. I should like to make two or three points. First, the Government owe us a clearer reaction to the views of the Constitution Committee of this House on referendums in relation to this Bill. At Second Reading, we heard nothing about it whatever. We have not heard a single response from the Government to the report of 17 March. I really think that we must now ask that the Government state their position clearly. Of course, they stated their position on the Constitution Committee’s report of last October when we had a debate. It was rather a long time ago, so perhaps they could refresh our views on that.

This matter is important because the 17 March report stated that referendums should be used only for major constitutional issues. In the view of the Constitution Committee, a large number of the issues put into this Bill as having the potential for a referendum did not fulfil that criterion. I really think that the Government need to state why they are rejecting the advice of the Constitution Committee in that respect. I would be grateful if the noble Lord would say something about that.

Secondly, I am not sure how well it has sunk into everyone’s minds that this Bill in its approach to referendums is totally different from any legislation that has provided for a referendum in this country before now. Up to now, we have had referendums on the European Community in 1975, on Scotland, on Wales, on Northern Ireland and now on AV. Every one of those was a separate piece of primary legislation that laid down the precise conditions and circumstances in which the referendum was to be taken. However, this is a blank cheque for referendums—referendums a-go-go. Some of them are no doubt on matters of considerable importance and some of them on matters of lesser importance. The point is that if we pass this Bill in the form that the Government have proposed, we are taking a major step towards plebiscitary democracy and away from representative parliamentary democracy. We should have absolutely no illusions about that. It is completely different from the situation with the other referendums, and they cannot be quoted in any way to defend the Bill because this situation is quite different.

I would like to make a further point to the Minister and to his colleague, who is now unwell. I feel very bad about that because we gave him a rather hard time before the dinner break. Now that I know he was not well, I wish that we had not. However, he used this argument again and again, as did the noble Lord at Second Reading. I do not doubt the sincerity with which they say that the purpose of the legislation is to reconcile the British people with the European Union better than they are currently. Their analysis of the problem in this country is absolutely correct, but their prescription for a solution is completely incredible. It is just not believable that holding a series of referendums on the European Union is going to make the people feel more favourable about the European Union than they do now.

In fact, the exact contrary is likely to be the consequence. I know that it is not the consequence that the Government wish to see or which they are aiming for, but having lived through the saga of Britain’s relationship with the European Union for about the past 40 years, that is what is going to happen. We saw it in 1975 when the protagonists of the referendum, Tony Benn and others, assured us that once the referendum was over it would all be finished and we would be happy kittens in a basket. Two days after the referendum, they were campaigning for another one to reject any further integration into the European Union, or whatever it was. Frankly, this is not credible. The Government’s story does not hold water.

I accept that the solution put forward by my noble friend Lord Williamson is only a palliative, but it is an important one. It would meet the point that we were not slipping down the hill towards a plebiscitary democracy because we would leave Parliament in charge from the beginning of the process to the end. I am sure that, if there was a large majority from a large vote against something, there is no way in which the Government of the day would then ram the thing through. That is just not credible. But if the vote was small, it would be quite right for Parliament to take the final decision, and that is what the amendments tabled by my noble friend would achieve. I think that some combination of the thrust of his two amendments, to make the referendums advisory and to set a 40 per cent threshold, would be the best way of limiting what otherwise could be a serious attack on the way in which this country has been governed for several hundred years.