Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Lord Stunell Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

I tabled amendments 40 and 41. I look forward to hearing what my right hon. Friend the Minister has to say about Government amendments 64 and 65, which go a long way towards meeting the concerns that lie behind amendment 40.

I agree with the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) in one respect. When the Committee took evidence, we heard from a succession of Jonahs. Neither the TUC nor the CBI was exactly over the moon about the Government’s proposals, and, indeed, all the outside organisations that gave evidence had criticisms to make. I particularly noted the words of a senior employment lawyer, who said, in plain terms, that he would not encourage any of his clients—that is, employers—to take advantage of the measure. The CBI described it as a very small niche product. However, my amendments are intended to deal not with circumstances in which it will be a niche product, but with circumstances in which all the evidence that the Committee received turns out to have been too pessimistic about its success. If that proves to be the case, it is important that the Minister’s plainly expressed intentions are clearly met, and that no employees are forced to accept a deal that they do not consider to be suitable for them and their circumstances. Amendment 40 makes it clear that there should be no detriment to such employees.

I am happy to say that Government amendments 64 and 65 appear to cover exactly the same territory, and—as is the way with Government drafting, as opposed to Back-Bench drafting—probably more thoroughly and comprehensively than I did. I therefore do not intend to press amendment 40, although whether I do so will depend on what the Minister says about the Government amendments. I assume that they are intended to provide safeguards against two possible outcomes. Amendment 64 would prevent an employee who turned down a contract of this kind from discrimination or other disadvantages in the workplace, while amendment 65 would ensure that the dismissal of such an employee constituted an unfair dismissal in employment law. That more or less covers what I was trying to do in amendment 40.

I have not yet been able to detect a Government amendment that matches amendment 41, but, again, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. My amendment is designed to deal with circumstances in which a vacancy arises in a firm that has adopted the proposed structure, and a jobcentre sends someone to the firm to apply for the job. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, the current policy of the Department for Work and Pensions is, rightly, that those who are receiving benefit and are directed to vacant posts have a duty to consider them, and, if they constitute reasonable offers of employment, to accept them. If they do not do so, their benefits will be suspended or withdrawn. My amendment proposes that if people refuse jobs because they are offered an employee-owner contract, that will not be grounds for the suspension of their benefits and for them to be put at a disadvantage. If they do not have some protection of that sort, it will be impossible for the Government to fulfil their clear commitment, which was confirmed by the Minister in Committee, that no one would be forced into such a relationship. Again, I look forward to hearing from the Minister, and, having done so, I may or may not choose to press amendment 41.

I hope it is clear to the House that my central objection is not to a new or alternative type of employment contract. I have no problem with that. The problem will arise if the power relationship between employer and employee is so out of balance that the employee does not have the discretion and the free will to refuse and to do something else instead. What I wanted to do, and what my Liberal Democrat colleagues wanted me to do, was ensure that neither those currently in employment nor those prospectively in employment would suffer any detriment in relation to the state benefits system. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) said about the inability to amend this part of the Bill, and I sympathise with his view, but I thought that it would be useful for us to test whether the Government’s intention was to adopt a genuine approach to developing the concept of employee ownership or whether this was merely an attack on employment rights. I thought that it would be useful to set out how an employee ownership scheme could be introduced, and that if the Government’s intention was indeed to develop the concept of employee ownership they would support my amendments, or at least commit themselves to tabling amendments to the same effect.

The argument about employee ownership relates to economic democracy. I believe that we should socialise our economy. I believe that individual workers at every level should have control over their own working lives, and that that means democratic control of the firm, the region and the nation. Over the years, the House has debated a variety of methods of bringing that about. We have discussed public ownership, and nationalisation as part of that; co-operation; mutualisation, by which I mean true mutualisation and not the alternative description of privatisation employed by the present Government; and worker ownership models, which have included the extension of employee ownership. A range of models have been discussed over the years, including the Scandinavian model—in which share entitlements are given to the workers and then put in trust, gradually amounting to control of the firm itself—and the individual employee ownership model proposed in the Nuttall review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Stunell]

My right hon. Friend is being very helpful. I think I heard him say that there was to be a process of consultation with stakeholders. Will he say a little more about that? I am sure that Members around the House would want to convey to the Department for Work and Pensions that there is sometimes a gap between the intentions of Ministers and the advice that they give, and the actual practice at individual offices. I would like to hear a little more from the Minister about that link between good intentions and good outcomes.

[Michael Fallon]

I certainly accept that point. What comes between the intentions and the outcome is the guidance. There is currently guidance to all staff in jobcentres, and I have already undertaken for my right hon. Friend that we will amend it. However, we will not simply amend it to put my words of tonight into it; we will consult all the various stakeholders involved on how we can make sure that it properly reflects what both he and I want to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point that was also made by the right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) in Committee, but he ignores the fact that a number of communities have not yet been able to draw up a neighbourhood plan. We are terribly concerned—this is the reason for the amendments—to ensure that simply publishing a draft neighbourhood plan does not mean that a village green cannot be registered. That is really important. We asked the Minister to think about delaying the operation of the triggers to enable all communities to develop neighbourhood plans, but sadly I was disappointed once again by his response.

[Andrew Stunell]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way—I know that time is short—but I draw her attention to section 87 of the Localism Act 2011, which deals with lists of assets of community value and under which any village green candidate could be listed. That has nothing to do with neighbourhood plans. I also draw her attention to sections 76 to 79 of the national planning policy framework. I think she is going for overkill on this one.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

I am afraid that the Open Spaces Society simply does not agree with the right hon. Gentleman. It made it clear in its briefing to Members on Report:

“The government claims that people would know of the threats through the neighbourhood planning process, but this process is in its infancy and is not widespread. Those who use and enjoy their local open spaces are usually doing just that and are not necessarily clued up about, or involved in, the planning process, and they cannot be expected to know or realise that there is a potential threat to their rights. Moreover those who may be aware of the neighbourhood planning process may not be the same people enjoying the use of a particular piece of land and thus would not be in a position to know that such land is being used as of right.”

It seems odd to give communities the right to register village greens under the Localism Act and the neighbourhood planning process—rights that have not yet been firmly embedded in all communities—while in the Bill taking away rights to register village greens. We ask the Minister to think again.